Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

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yankeesjn
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Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby yankeesjn » Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:46 am

For anyone who has any clue about this:

I'm very confused because I can see that on U.S. News Rankings it is said that only 43.9% of Fordham grads have jobs at graduation that fall into 1 of the following categories: 1.requires a J.D. 2. requires bar passage or 3. j.d./bar passage was helpful in getting the job. (Also, none of the jobs can be funded by Fordham, and all have to last at least a yr after graduation).
(here's the link: http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... sity-03107 ) (scroll down to careers)

Then I see other sources, using the same criteria for what "employment" is saying that this number is more like 62.5%. ( here's an example of a site: http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2013/04 ... -jobs.html )

I can't find the other links right now, but I've seen numbers like 60-something percent on other occasions too. The 43.9% posted by US news is the first time I've seen a number so low, and it's scary.

Can anyone who knows what I'm talking about and has seen these disparities explain to me why this would be the case? I would understand if the disparity was because "employment" is being defined differently by the different sources, like maybe one source making the stats is including school funded jobs while the other isn't, but this isn't the case. All of the sources I'm talking about are specifically trying to represent the real law or law-related jobs. I'm really stumped on this, any help is greatly appreciated.

(Side note: If possible, please let me know what you believe to be the more accurate number, thanks)

yankeesjn
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby yankeesjn » Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:11 am

Just to give another example, here's another site with the same mission of making the real numbers more clear. They put Fordham at 62.8%. (Here's the link: http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=other ) (they say .2% is school funded, so really they claim 62.6% here)

yankeesjn
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby yankeesjn » Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:54 am

Sorry, last post. You can get some different numbers here as well: http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/

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Ramius
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby Ramius » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:30 am

Use LST for now. They have the most complete/accurate data out there right now. Is it perfect? Not quite, but it gives a pretty damn good snapshot of your chances of employment from a given school for a given region. No one on here (besides maybe the guys who created LST) can give a better idea of what data to look at and how to best interpret it.

yankeesjn
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby yankeesjn » Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:59 am

matthewsean85 wrote:Use LST for now. They have the most complete/accurate data out there right now. Is it perfect? Not quite, but it gives a pretty damn good snapshot of your chances of employment from a given school for a given region. No one on here (besides maybe the guys who created LST) can give a better idea of what data to look at and how to best interpret it.


Do you know any reason why there would be such a gigantic disparity between LST and usnews? This is very important to me, because at 60-something percent, I see Fordham as a school that one can go to and most likely end up with a reasonably legit job at the end. However, if the number is 44%, it very much changes my opinion, and I would be willing to more strongly consider other options. Especially considering that some portion of the 44% would be people who have some sort of connection, it would be like you have to be top third to get any kind of real law job, never mind the good big law jobs (which is probably what almost every student is striving for as they enter).

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hephaestus
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby hephaestus » Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:19 am

There is a very simple distinction: USNWR gives the total employed at graduation. The other data is 9 months after graduation.

yankeesjn
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby yankeesjn » Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:52 am

ImNoScar wrote:There is a very simple distinction: USNWR gives the total employed at graduation. The other data is 9 months after graduation.


Okay, are you certain? If so, then in my opinion, it's not like being unemployed for part of a year is the worst thing in the world. To me, if 63% are employed 9 months after graduation, then that's the number that really counts. What do you think?

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Danger Zone
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby Danger Zone » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:01 am

yankeesjn wrote:
ImNoScar wrote:There is a very simple distinction: USNWR gives the total employed at graduation. The other data is 9 months after graduation.


Okay, are you certain? If so, then in my opinion, it's not like being unemployed for part of a year is the worst thing in the world. To me, if 63% are employed 9 months after graduation, then that's the number that really counts. What do you think?

Maybe. Then again, maybe people are resorting to non-legal or just plain terrible jobs after graduation because they don't see any hope and decide to just take whatever they can get.

yankeesjn
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby yankeesjn » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:14 am

Danger Zone wrote:
yankeesjn wrote:
ImNoScar wrote:There is a very simple distinction: USNWR gives the total employed at graduation. The other data is 9 months after graduation.


Okay, are you certain? If so, then in my opinion, it's not like being unemployed for part of a year is the worst thing in the world. To me, if 63% are employed 9 months after graduation, then that's the number that really counts. What do you think?

Maybe. Then again, maybe people are resorting to non-legal or just plain terrible jobs after graduation because they don't see any hope and decide to just take whatever they can get.


That's a different number though. These jobs have to be legal, can't be school funded, and have to be full-time long term. The percentage of people employed in anything at all, including non-legal jobs and part-time jobs, is something well over 90%.

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guano
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby guano » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:17 am

Danger Zone wrote:
yankeesjn wrote:
ImNoScar wrote:There is a very simple distinction: USNWR gives the total employed at graduation. The other data is 9 months after graduation.


Okay, are you certain? If so, then in my opinion, it's not like being unemployed for part of a year is the worst thing in the world. To me, if 63% are employed 9 months after graduation, then that's the number that really counts. What do you think?

Maybe. Then again, maybe people are resorting to non-legal or just plain terrible jobs after graduation because they don't see any hope and decide to just take whatever they can get.

Um, how long does it take to get admitted to the bar? There's a reason the 9 month mark is the standard for law school outcomes

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Danger Zone
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby Danger Zone » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:26 am

yankeesjn wrote:These jobs have to be legal, can't be school funded, and have to be full-time long term.

The job posted at BC for an attorney at $10k a year would qualify for this.

yankeesjn
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby yankeesjn » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:27 am

guano wrote:
Danger Zone wrote:
yankeesjn wrote:
ImNoScar wrote:There is a very simple distinction: USNWR gives the total employed at graduation. The other data is 9 months after graduation.


Okay, are you certain? If so, then in my opinion, it's not like being unemployed for part of a year is the worst thing in the world. To me, if 63% are employed 9 months after graduation, then that's the number that really counts. What do you think?

Maybe. Then again, maybe people are resorting to non-legal or just plain terrible jobs after graduation because they don't see any hope and decide to just take whatever they can get.

Um, how long does it take to get admitted to the bar? There's a reason the 9 month mark is the standard for law school outcomes



So for no clear reason, Usnews has just gone against this general standard?

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hephaestus
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby hephaestus » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:31 am

yankeesjn wrote:So for no clear reason, Usnews has just gone against this general standard?

First, jobs that are secured by graduation tend to be significantly better than jobs after graduation. That is because jobs before graduation include big law, and the other highest paying jobs. So it is not a matter of just being unemployed for a most of the year, but instead a decent proxy for 43% having good jobs and the rest likely making 45k or thereabouts.

Second, your posts indicate you are interested in big law and Fordham is a bad choice for that. Retake the LSAt and go to a T14. Fordham is also incredibly stingy with scholarship money, and is in an extremely high cost area.

Third, I don't quite understand why 66% reassures you so much, since it means a full third of the class are not employed as lawyers. There is no way that you can assume that you will place well enough to get a very good job.

yankeesjn
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby yankeesjn » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:32 am

Danger Zone wrote:
yankeesjn wrote:These jobs have to be legal, can't be school funded, and have to be full-time long term.

The job posted at BC for an attorney at $10k a year would qualify for this.



Yes true, but that's a very rare example that made headlines in newspapers. Is doc review considered full-time long-term?

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Danger Zone
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby Danger Zone » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:34 am

Why do you think that's a rare example? Sure, most firms pay more than $10k, but a lot of the small ones will start you at 30-40 while working you just as hard as big law.

Image

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:37 am

I love the coffee cup that says "#2 Dad" and is sitting right next to the flask.

OP use LST, which shows that Fordham is an extremely risky choice for anyone borrowing to finance a non-trivial portion of their cost of attendance.

yankeesjn
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby yankeesjn » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:38 am

ImNoScar wrote:
yankeesjn wrote:So for no clear reason, Usnews has just gone against this general standard?

First, jobs that are secured by graduation tend to be significantly better than jobs after graduation. That is because jobs before graduation include big law, and the other highest paying jobs. So it is not a matter of just being unemployed for a most of the year, but instead a decent proxy for 43% having good jobs and the rest likely making 45k or thereabouts.

Second, your posts indicate you are interested in big law and Fordham is a bad choice for that. Retake the LSAt and go to a T14. Fordham is also incredibly stingy with scholarship money, and is in an extremely high cost area.

Third, I don't quite understand why 66% reassures you so much, since it means a full third of the class are not employed as lawyers. There is no way that you can assume that you will place well enough to get a very good job.



I completely agree with you, however for people who cannot get into a T-14, schools like Fordham with 20-25% placement in big law is pretty much as good as it gets. I understand the 63/66% is not the great jobs, I'm more talking regular scenario, where I don't end up in the top 20% but I do end up around the median. I don't strongly desire a 45k job, but if I am at a law office and getting experience, that scenario is a lot better than being part of the portion of the class that can't even get a legal job at all. I am trying to figure out what will most likely be my scenario if I don't do well enough to get into big law. Is it being a bartender, or being a lawyer who makes 45-60k right out of school, but can continue in the field of law. That is why this distinction is so important to me, and the reason I've asked all of you these questions. I appreciate your help so far. Thank you very much.

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guano
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby guano » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:43 am

yankeesjn wrote:
I completely agree with you, however for people who cannot get into a T-14, schools like Fordham with 20-25% placement in big law is pretty much as good as it gets.

And for those unable to invent Facebook, but still want to be a gazillionaire, investing in lottery tickets is the best chance they'll get

yankeesjn
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby yankeesjn » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:44 am

guano wrote:
yankeesjn wrote:
I completely agree with you, however for people who cannot get into a T-14, schools like Fordham with 20-25% placement in big law is pretty much as good as it gets.

And for those unable to invent Facebook, but still want to be a gazillionaire, investing in lottery tickets is the best chance they'll get



The lottery isn't 1/4 it's 1 in a billion. Pretty big difference. You are paying a lot more for law school than a lottery ticket, I admit, but still the numbers for Fordham and getting big law can't really be compared to winning the lottery by any stretch of the imagination.
Last edited by yankeesjn on Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ramius
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby Ramius » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:46 am

yankeesjn wrote:
ImNoScar wrote:
yankeesjn wrote:So for no clear reason, Usnews has just gone against this general standard?

First, jobs that are secured by graduation tend to be significantly better than jobs after graduation. That is because jobs before graduation include big law, and the other highest paying jobs. So it is not a matter of just being unemployed for a most of the year, but instead a decent proxy for 43% having good jobs and the rest likely making 45k or thereabouts.

Second, your posts indicate you are interested in big law and Fordham is a bad choice for that. Retake the LSAt and go to a T14. Fordham is also incredibly stingy with scholarship money, and is in an extremely high cost area.

Third, I don't quite understand why 66% reassures you so much, since it means a full third of the class are not employed as lawyers. There is no way that you can assume that you will place well enough to get a very good job.



I completely agree with you, however for people who cannot get into a T-14, schools like Fordham with 20-25% placement in big law is pretty much as good as it gets. I understand the 63/66% is not the great jobs, I'm more talking regular scenario, where I don't end up in the top 20% but I do end up around the median. I don't strongly desire a 45k job, but if I am at a law office and getting experience, that scenario is a lot better than being part of the portion of the class that can't even get a legal job at all. I am trying to figure out what will most likely be my scenario if I don't do well enough to get into big law. Is it being a bartender, or being a lawyer who makes 45-60k right out of school, but can continue in the field of law. That is why this distinction is so important to me, and the reason I've asked all of you these questions. I appreciate your help so far. Thank you very much.


It's pretty simple. If you want a meaningful (read >50%) chance of BIGLAW, you have to work your ass off on the LSAT to net you a T14. No other way around it. Don't accept a marginal chance as good enough when you can do something relatively easy to increase your chances appreciably. You know what you want, and you know this is the best way to get it.

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Danger Zone
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby Danger Zone » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:47 am

Anyone can get into a T-14. You just have to do well on the LSAT, which is way more attainable than doing well in law school.

yankeesjn
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby yankeesjn » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:53 am

Also, if you include federal clerkships as part of the pool of prestigious jobs, the chances go from about 1/4 to 1/3. I definitely would be extremely satisfied with being any of that 33.3%. http://law.fordham.edu/about-fordham/5247.htm .

But yes I understand "Special snowflake" etc. Yes I know most people aren't in the top third, that's the nature of what a third is :).

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Ramius
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby Ramius » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:55 am

yankeesjn wrote:Also, if you include federal clerkships as part of the pool of prestigious jobs, the chances go from about 1/4 to 1/3. I definitely would be extremely satisfied with being any of that 33.3%. http://law.fordham.edu/about-fordham/5247.htm .

But yes I understand "Special snowflake" etc. Yes I know most people aren't in the top third, that's the nature of what a third is :).


Stop looking for some kind of confirmation/affirmation of a decision you want to make. You're not going to get it here.

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Danger Zone
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby Danger Zone » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:58 am

yankeesjn wrote:Also, if you include federal clerkships as part of the pool of prestigious jobs, the chances go from about 1/4 to 1/3. I definitely would be extremely satisfied with being any of that 33.3%. http://law.fordham.edu/about-fordham/5247.htm .

But yes I understand "Special snowflake" etc. Yes I know most people aren't in the top third, that's the nature of what a third is :).

If you want to go to Fordham, then just go dude.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:59 am

Danger Zone wrote:Anyone can get into a T-14. You just have to do well on the LSAT, which is way more attainable than doing well in law school.


Also much easier than doing well in college. Few law schools are truly selective anymore.




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