George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
dudders
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby dudders » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:10 am

mi-chan17 wrote:
bsktbll28082 wrote:I'm interested in some recommendations on housing :D


A lot of folks live in Foggy Bottom or other nearby places in Northwest (Georgetown, Dupont, etc.). This will put you walking distance to school (or bussing distance), but it's also going to be pretty expensive. If you go further out, Cleveland Park or H Street, it will be slightly cheaper, but you'll need to metro in to school, which could take awhile (especially since CP is on the redline). Northeast is also on red line, which is inconvenient, and their attempts to rapidly gentrify it have resulted in rent prices that are way too high for what you're getting. Eastern Market and Capitol Hill may be worth checking out, though cost/space ratio is oftentimes as bad as in FB and Dupont.

Cheapest way to go is usually living in Arlington/Alexandria and taking metro in. It still won't be Cheap, but you get significantly more space for your money, in Virginia, and even paying metro fare won't make the cost equivalent to what you'd pay in DC. Arlington is on the orange and blue lines, both of which go to Foggy Bottom (the law school).


If you want bang for your buck, I'd recommend looking at group houses, in neighborhoods like Cap Hill, H St, Columbia Heights, Adams Morgan, Shaw/U St./Ledroit, Petworth, and Mt. Pleasant. Some law school friends and I found a 4-bedroom (relatively unrenovated, mind you) house in Columbia Heights for $2700. We saved a katrillion dollars in rent over 3 years, and lived in a fun neighborhood. Even if places don't look close to school Metro on a map, pretty much everywhere is an easy half hr bike/bus commute to school from most of central DC.

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FSK
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby FSK » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:35 am

dudders wrote:
mi-chan17 wrote:
bsktbll28082 wrote:I'm interested in some recommendations on housing :D


A lot of folks live in Foggy Bottom or other nearby places in Northwest (Georgetown, Dupont, etc.). This will put you walking distance to school (or bussing distance), but it's also going to be pretty expensive. If you go further out, Cleveland Park or H Street, it will be slightly cheaper, but you'll need to metro in to school, which could take awhile (especially since CP is on the redline). Northeast is also on red line, which is inconvenient, and their attempts to rapidly gentrify it have resulted in rent prices that are way too high for what you're getting. Eastern Market and Capitol Hill may be worth checking out, though cost/space ratio is oftentimes as bad as in FB and Dupont.

Cheapest way to go is usually living in Arlington/Alexandria and taking metro in. It still won't be Cheap, but you get significantly more space for your money, in Virginia, and even paying metro fare won't make the cost equivalent to what you'd pay in DC. Arlington is on the orange and blue lines, both of which go to Foggy Bottom (the law school).


If you want bang for your buck, I'd recommend looking at group houses, in neighborhoods like Cap Hill, H St, Columbia Heights, Adams Morgan, Shaw/U St./Ledroit, Petworth, and Mt. Pleasant. Some law school friends and I found a 4-bedroom (relatively unrenovated, mind you) house in Columbia Heights for $2700. We saved a katrillion dollars in rent over 3 years, and lived in a fun neighborhood. Even if places don't look close to school Metro on a map, pretty much everywhere is an easy half hr bike/bus commute to school from most of central DC.


I shared a 2BR in Silver Spring for 1565 a month. It was big, fairly nice, had solid amenities, and gave me a 40 min commute to school. Moved into a 1BR in Van Ness with my S/O and am saving a similar amount of money.

Great-Dave
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby Great-Dave » Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:23 pm

How is GW with BigLaw; would you come here again or would have chosen somewhere else?

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mi-chan17
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby mi-chan17 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:49 am

Great-Dave wrote:How is GW with BigLaw; would you come here again or would have chosen somewhere else?


I think you'd need someone who is a current 3L to most accurately answer this question, rather than someone who graduated in 2013. I'm under the impression the market has improved at least a little from when my class went through OCI. That said, during OCI, GW Scholars (top 1-15%) were pretty much fine, unless something weird was going on (only bidding non-NY/DC insular markets, etc.). TM Scholars (16-35%) were hit or miss, but most had at least a few screeners. More of those folks had to mass mail for their jobs, if they got BigLaw. Below that was much tougher. There are people who managed it, but they had to dig deep and work hard for it, and some of them didn't land those jobs until Spring 3L.

I would definitely go to GW again, but I also went there with significant scholarship money and ended up with a good job outcome. So I'm not necessarily representative. There's also some bias here, because I enjoyed my time at GW and the friends I made there. It's possible I'd have liked some other school just as much, but I have no way of knowing.

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fltanglab
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby fltanglab » Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:49 pm

mi-chan17 wrote:
Great-Dave wrote:How is GW with BigLaw; would you come here again or would have chosen somewhere else?


I think you'd need someone who is a current 3L to most accurately answer this question, rather than someone who graduated in 2013. I'm under the impression the market has improved at least a little from when my class went through OCI. That said, during OCI, GW Scholars (top 1-15%) were pretty much fine, unless something weird was going on (only bidding non-NY/DC insular markets, etc.). TM Scholars (16-35%) were hit or miss, but most had at least a few screeners. More of those folks had to mass mail for their jobs, if they got BigLaw. Below that was much tougher. There are people who managed it, but they had to dig deep and work hard for it, and some of them didn't land those jobs until Spring 3L.

I would definitely go to GW again, but I also went there with significant scholarship money and ended up with a good job outcome. So I'm not necessarily representative. There's also some bias here, because I enjoyed my time at GW and the friends I made there. It's possible I'd have liked some other school just as much, but I have no way of knowing.


I'm a current 3L. I think that lately prospects have gone down due to the dramatic increase in class size (by lately I mean this year, but it's early to tell). My year it was good for top 15% and I know quite a few TM Scholars who got biglaw. We also have a majority of IP students get biglaw (~ top half is enough), but of course that's a different category. I get the overall feeling that things are better than they were when mi-chan was going through OCI, but my class in particular was considerably smaller than every other class. So we may have benefitted from the smaller class size.

I would come here again, but I think if you're biglaw or bust it isn't the safest choice. I think there are a lot of opportunities at GW that you have to go out and seek. I was extremely good at networking right out of the gate and I probably could have found a job relying on those skills alone if things hadn't worked out for me. But this kind of thing is completely dependent on the individual. On pure statistics alone it's not the safest bet. I would probably go with straight numbers if I was the average Joe law student. Mi-chan is right about not knowing how another law school is. I have visited some other schools during the year (not during recruitment) and didn't like them as much, but that's a purely cultural observation.

shawmaster
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby shawmaster » Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:00 am

I am concerned about the class size. Is it cramped in there? classes ..facilities?

jarofsoup
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby jarofsoup » Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:48 am

The big law chances from GW are alright in the DC, mid atlantic, and east coast market. Its a strong regional school so it does well out here, but terrible in the west. About 1/2 my friends in the 2014 class have big law positions. There has been good amount of 3L/ entry-level hiring in the big law firms, which is unusual. 2015 seems to being much better though.

But a lot of big law prospects relate to first year grades and how well you perform in OCI. The lower cut off for big law firms is around 3.4. So a lot rides on your interview skills, ability to not submit a shitty cover letter or resume and not being a complete weirdo to get these positions.

The P2P program that everyone bashes b/c its "school funded employment" is quite a big perk. A lot of my friends are on it and you can get a good position at a law firm (any firm under 50 associates qualify).

Anecdotally, a lot of people get into larger law firms and full time gigs with in 3 months from starting a P2P fellowship.

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FSK
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby FSK » Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:55 am

jarofsoup wrote:The big law chances from GW are alright in the DC, mid atlantic, and east coast market. Its a strong regional school so it does well out here, but terrible in the west. About 1/2 my friends in the 2014 class have big law positions. There has been good amount of 3L/ entry-level hiring in the big law firms, which is unusual. 2015 seems to being much better though.

But a lot of big law prospects relate to first year grades and how well you perform in OCI. The lower cut off for big law firms is around 3.4. So a lot rides on your interview skills, ability to not submit a shitty cover letter or resume and not being a complete weirdo to get these positions.

The P2P program that everyone bashes b/c its "school funded employment" is quite a big perk. A lot of my friends are on it and you can get a good position at a law firm (any firm under 50 associates qualify).

Anecdotally, a lot of people get into larger law firms and full time gigs with in 3 months from starting a P2P fellowship.


OCI has been a blood bath for those not 3.6+ or IP (top 15%). Massmailing has been better, but you're going to have to hustle. The school has been completely disingenuous admitting too many students & too many transfers. Class size up 150 kids total in one year.

jarofsoup
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby jarofsoup » Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:56 am

Well I know the 2015 class seems to have done well. Maybe its gone to shit for 2016.

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mi-chan17
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby mi-chan17 » Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:32 pm

shawmaster wrote:I am concerned about the class size. Is it cramped in there? classes ..facilities?


Hallways are a little crowded at certain times, that's definitely true. Sometimes it can be tough to get space in the hard lounge, too. Other than that, though, classes weren't cramped or anything. They don't put classes into rooms that don't fit them, as a general rule.

Beyond facilities (and probably job hunting, based on the last couple years), I actually found the large class size to be to my benefit.

shawmaster
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby shawmaster » Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:34 pm

mi-chan17 wrote:
shawmaster wrote:I am concerned about the class size. Is it cramped in there? classes ..facilities?


Hallways are a little crowded at certain times, that's definitely true. Sometimes it can be tough to get space in the hard lounge, too. Other than that, though, classes weren't cramped or anything. They don't put classes into rooms that don't fit them, as a general rule.

Beyond facilities (and probably job hunting, based on the last couple years), I actually found the large class size to be to my benefit.

How is that?

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mi-chan17
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby mi-chan17 » Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:34 am

Well, as a 1L, the larger classes meant getting cold-called less than I would in smaller classes. As a 2L and 3L, being part of a larger law school meant we had more classes to choose from. Finally, if you didn't particularly bond with the people in your section, there were plenty of other people at the school to hang out with.

dudders
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby dudders » Sun Oct 12, 2014 6:53 pm

shawmaster wrote:
mi-chan17 wrote:
shawmaster wrote:I am concerned about the class size. Is it cramped in there? classes ..facilities?


Hallways are a little crowded at certain times, that's definitely true. Sometimes it can be tough to get space in the hard lounge, too. Other than that, though, classes weren't cramped or anything. They don't put classes into rooms that don't fit them, as a general rule.

Beyond facilities (and probably job hunting, based on the last couple years), I actually found the large class size to be to my benefit.

How is that?


Class selection at GW, as a 2L and 3L, is ridiculous. I could've stayed 8 years if I wanted to cover everything I was legitimately interested in ...

Also, it's easier to be top 10-15% when there's 400-500 people in your class (aka 40-70 people), than if there's 100 (only 10 people).

It probably makes job hunting worse, but I was older than average (3 years out) when I started, and I was THRILLED to have a big class with tons of people to choose your friends from. I was part of the old dive bar crowd. If I was at a school with a class of 120, 75 of whom are 1 year out, max, and CRAZY for bar review ... I would've lost my mind. There was something for EVERYONE in terms of student groups, events, friends, activities, etc., which is simply less possible at a smaller school based on the numbers.

Yeah, hard lounge or prime library space can be tough at peak hours, but it was never terrible. (The undergrad gym, however, is another story.)

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bsktbll28082
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby bsktbll28082 » Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:42 pm

I recently discovered the undergraduate library. It's nice to get a different scene every once in awhile. Not enough outlets in the law school.

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thelincolnlawyer
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby thelincolnlawyer » Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:10 pm

After experiencing the law school and the subsequent job opportunities after graduation, do you think GW would be worth attending at the sticker price? There are many resounding negative opinions throughout these forums on this, but I am curious as to what actual graduates think. I'm leaning towards a career in IP or JAG in case that holds any weight in your opinions (opposite ends of the career spectrum, I know)

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FSK
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby FSK » Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:17 pm

thelincolnlawyer wrote:After experiencing the law school and the subsequent job opportunities after graduation, do you think GW would be worth attending at the sticker price? There are many resounding negative opinions throughout these forums on this, but I am curious as to what actual graduates think. I'm leaning towards a career in IP or JAG in case that holds any weight in your opinions (opposite ends of the career spectrum, I know)


Absolutely under no condition should anyone go to law school at sticker. That is especially true for Trap schools like GW.

If you're leaning towards IP, that means you don't have a patent background, meaning IP is a dead end for you. JAG is also very selective.

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thelincolnlawyer
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby thelincolnlawyer » Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:51 pm

flawschoolkid wrote:
thelincolnlawyer wrote:After experiencing the law school and the subsequent job opportunities after graduation, do you think GW would be worth attending at the sticker price? There are many resounding negative opinions throughout these forums on this, but I am curious as to what actual graduates think. I'm leaning towards a career in IP or JAG in case that holds any weight in your opinions (opposite ends of the career spectrum, I know)


Absolutely under no condition should anyone go to law school at sticker. That is especially true for Trap schools like GW.

If you're leaning towards IP, that means you don't have a patent background, meaning IP is a dead end for you. JAG is also very selective.


Patent law falls under the umbrella of IP along with copyrights and trademarks. The additional requirements are a science background and passing of the patent bar. My undergraduate degree was in Biology and the patent bar can be taken at any time before prosecuting patents to the USPTO. IP is therefore not a dead end in my scenario.

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FSK
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby FSK » Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:06 pm

thelincolnlawyer wrote:
flawschoolkid wrote:
thelincolnlawyer wrote:After experiencing the law school and the subsequent job opportunities after graduation, do you think GW would be worth attending at the sticker price? There are many resounding negative opinions throughout these forums on this, but I am curious as to what actual graduates think. I'm leaning towards a career in IP or JAG in case that holds any weight in your opinions (opposite ends of the career spectrum, I know)


Absolutely under no condition should anyone go to law school at sticker. That is especially true for Trap schools like GW.

If you're leaning towards IP, that means you don't have a patent background, meaning IP is a dead end for you. JAG is also very selective.


Patent law falls under the umbrella of IP along with copyrights and trademarks. The additional requirements are a science background and passing of the patent bar. My undergraduate degree was in Biology and the patent bar can be taken at any time before prosecuting patents to the USPTO. IP is therefore not a dead end in my scenario.


That's what I mean. With just a B.S. in Bio, You're not going to have a much better time than a non-patent student finding employment. Not many firms are aggressively hiring life science based patent litigations, and those that are really want PhDs.

collegebum1989
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby collegebum1989 » Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:23 pm

GW 1L here with IP background...I would say GW is a great option if (1) you get a decent scholarship and are interested in govt/non-profit work or (2) have a marketable IP background. A B.S. only won't cut it anymore.

"Being IP" is the cool thing at GW because it seems that's how the school markets itself to students and applicants but the truth is that only a few backgrounds are actually in demand (EE, CS, or PhD in sciences). If you have a Bio/Chem B.S. only, your background alone will not get you Biglaw unless you have the grades.

GW also knows that its students with IP backgrounds do well so they accept tons of engineers and scientists with advanced degrees that comprise the class. In the evening program alone, you'll find 10-15 patent examiners and engineers with industry experience and they're who you will be competing with for the patent jobs.


If you have an IP background with a degree in demand and/or have a industry job, you can also attend the evening program and transition to a IP firm while you go to school. A lot of the evening students do this from the USPTO, so not a bad option to consider (again, only if you have the appropriate background).

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FSK
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby FSK » Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:31 pm

Not to mention, the class size has expanded by 150 over the past two years (with 100 transfers). Opportunities & space are being stretched thin.

collegebum1989
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby collegebum1989 » Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:52 pm

Class size is massive even for the IP students and the 1Ls know that only top 15-20% get biglaw so if that is you're goal, then GW without scholarship or patent background is essentially a massive risk.

However, while the full-time class size has increased to 550, the evening class has been reduced to about 40 from 150 few years ago. If you have a patent background, get an examiner job at the PTO, and go to the evening program and you'll be swimming in offers from IP firms after 1L. Since these firms can hire you as a full-time Tech Spec or Patent Agent during the academic year WHILE you are in school, you are effectively competing only with 10-15 evening students for jobs rather than 50-100 full-time GW students with IP backgrounds AND all other full-time IP students from other law schools who the firms recruit at through OCI. Not to mention, you finish law school with experience, salary and existing rapport with a firm.

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mi-chan17
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby mi-chan17 » Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:14 am

thelincolnlawyer wrote:After experiencing the law school and the subsequent job opportunities after graduation, do you think GW would be worth attending at the sticker price? There are many resounding negative opinions throughout these forums on this, but I am curious as to what actual graduates think. I'm leaning towards a career in IP or JAG in case that holds any weight in your opinions (opposite ends of the career spectrum, I know)


Like everyone else has been saying, I can't recommend anyone going to any law school at sticker, and that includes GW. By the time you graduate, you would be looking at nearly $300,000 in debt, and there's almost no job that would service that in a meaningful way.

If you had a marketable IP background, it would freak me out Slightly less, but it doesn't sound like you do. Most life science folks have advanced degrees before going into IP - my class year had some Ph.Ds in various sciences - the only bachelor's degree people were engineers or CS. Now, there may be something about your science background that I don't know but, based on present information, I'd be nervous.

JAG is a separate issue. There, I'm not concerned about your background at all, but it is extremely selective. Most people who do JAG, at this point, have to apply through multiple boards to even get to the interview stage. If you get the job, that would be awesome, but it's not an easy job to get. Getting JAG is not like enlisting, getting JAG is more like getting biglaw/bigfed, in terms of acceptance rates. That is, it's extremely unlikely.

I'm generally pro-GW, but please don't go at sticker.

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FSK
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby FSK » Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:27 am

I'm a GW 2L, got biglaw, and I'm anti-GW - just to be candid with my advice.

collegebum1989
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby collegebum1989 » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:23 am

mi-chan17 wrote:
thelincolnlawyer wrote:After experiencing the law school and the subsequent job opportunities after graduation, do you think GW would be worth attending at the sticker price? There are many resounding negative opinions throughout these forums on this, but I am curious as to what actual graduates think. I'm leaning towards a career in IP or JAG in case that holds any weight in your opinions (opposite ends of the career spectrum, I know)


Like everyone else has been saying, I can't recommend anyone going to any law school at sticker, and that includes GW. By the time you graduate, you would be looking at nearly $300,000 in debt, and there's almost no job that would service that in a meaningful way.

If you had a marketable IP background, it would freak me out Slightly less, but it doesn't sound like you do. Most life science folks have advanced degrees before going into IP - my class year had some Ph.Ds in various sciences - the only bachelor's degree people were engineers or CS. Now, there may be something about your science background that I don't know but, based on present information, I'd be nervous.

JAG is a separate issue. There, I'm not concerned about your background at all, but it is extremely selective. Most people who do JAG, at this point, have to apply through multiple boards to even get to the interview stage. If you get the job, that would be awesome, but it's not an easy job to get. Getting JAG is not like enlisting, getting JAG is more like getting biglaw/bigfed, in terms of acceptance rates. That is, it's extremely unlikely.

I'm generally pro-GW, but please don't go at sticker.


Agreed - I'm paying sticker right now and it was stressful at first, but I am also an evening student and work concurrently. I would say the only way GW at sticker makes sense is if you are evening student with a job that pays moderately well.

Having been through the recruitment process with some IP firms recently, I have noticed that if you're EE/CS, then your alma mater doesn't really matter. If you're a non-EE engineer (MechE, BioE, etc.), they seem to care more about where you studied (and in my case, where you are enrolled in law school). However, if you're a Chem/Bio person, you'll get categorized as "life sciences" and unless you went to a top 10 school or an ivy league, it will be very tough to even get attention from firms. Outside EE/CS, the prestige of your technical background and work experience will matter more than your actual degree. I was a BME and found that I got my interviews mostly because of where I went to school and my work experience.

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kittenmittens
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Re: George Washington Grad and Students Taking Qs

Postby kittenmittens » Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:40 pm

Hi all, thank you for all the info already offered here!

A couple of questions for now. I am strongly considering applying ED to GW. 166 LSAT (162 first take) 3.9 GPA from state school. Currently living and working in DC and could def see myself happy here. Price is big factor for me and full ride to GW sounds great.

Do any of you have experience- personal or anecdotal about who they let in ED? Are they looking for >75% for both LSAT and GPA?

Also, I was very interested to hear above discussion about the large number of transfers. How exactly has this affected your experience besides for stretching class sizes? Are these transfer students generally students from lower ranked schools who work their asses off? Are they more IP students, Biglaw gunners, something else, or a general mix?




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