Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

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yossarian
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby yossarian » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:05 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:
andythefir wrote:
CJ2017 wrote:How is the placement in DC for summer externships/internships? How does ND do with clerkships?


I was blown away by our clerkship numbers for the class of 2014. Think 6-10+ fed cir. clerks, including a couple in major feeders. This is in a class of 180. ND crushes any of its peers when it comes to placing students in conservative chambers.

As for DC, I knew several people there for externships and for jobs. I think you need pretty good grades, but it's definitely possible.


Your class was unbelievable as far as clerkships go. In my class (2013) we only had three circuit clerks and no feeders, but not as many people were as interested in clerking. 2014 was just amazing though.


So, are we seeing 2014 as anomalous? High clerkships plus a crazy high biglaw representation. Or part of a trend?

(I'm not sure how an anomalous class would happen in law school, as grades are curved and from what I understand firms/clerkships don't really recruit "talent" in the sense that grades still have to be there. And only so many people of any class can meet those grade cut-offs. So this means median (or close to it) students were getting biglaw at ND?)

Any insight into why 2014 was amazing?
Last edited by yossarian on Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:14 pm

yossarian71 wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:
andythefir wrote:
CJ2017 wrote:How is the placement in DC for summer externships/internships? How does ND do with clerkships?


I was blown away by our clerkship numbers for the class of 2014. Think 6-10+ fed cir. clerks, including a couple in major feeders. This is in a class of 180. ND crushes any of its peers when it comes to placing students in conservative chambers.

As for DC, I knew several people there for externships and for jobs. I think you need pretty good grades, but it's definitely possible.


Your class was unbelievable as far as clerkships go. In my class (2013) we only had three circuit clerks and no feeders, but not as many people were as interested in clerking. 2014 was just amazing though.


So, are we seeing 2014 as anomalous? High clerkships plus a crazy high biglaw representation? Or part of a trend?

(I'm not sure how an anomalous class would happen in law school, as grades are curved and from what I understand firms/clerkships don't really recruit "talent" in the sense that grades still have to be there. And only so many people of any class can meet those grade cut-offs. So this means median (or close to it) adults were getting biglaw at ND?)

Any insight into why 2014 was amazing?


At the very top, 2014 is quite an impressive class and I think their individual ability played into the fact that they were able to secure so many great clerkships. Also, the fact that many of them are conservative helped (out of the law review people with CoA clerkships, I think only one of them is with a Democrat appointee, but someone correct me if I'm wrong).

As far as the trend for firms, I can't really speak to that but it does seem like that could be a trend (though it's possible people simply targeted/had ties to the right cities).

mx23250
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby mx23250 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:19 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:
John Everyman wrote:How do Chicago firms generally treat ND students in competition with Northwestern and UChi grads? Am I likely to get crushed up against them if I went to ND even if my numbers are overall better than those students'?

Also, do the domer alumni generally live up to their rep? Meaning, how many people tend to get jobs/foot in the door through alumni resources? and also on that note, how hard does ND work to put you in touch with alumni lawyers?


The alumni are the best. Sent out several cold emails to people at firms and they took the time to write long, detailed responses (eventually talked on the phone to a few of them, including a former clerk of a judge I was targeting). I got my 1L job (judicial internship with a double domer state CoA judge) and my clerkship (with a NDLS alum district judge) entirely because of ND. It also didn't hurt for my applications to conservative/libertarian public interest firms (one of which I'll be going to as a fellow after my clerkship).


Congrats on those excellent opportunities!!
So obviously ND, as a conservative university, does exceptionally well with placing students in prestigious clerkships, presumably due to the students sharing the conservative beliefs of the judges. I'm wondering though, how does an applicant for one of these clerkships come off as appearing "conservative" since not all NDLS students are conservative? If you're conservative and you want to pursue one of these clerkships, should you be sure to get involved with conservative organizations (or other things?) to demonstrate this in your cover letter/resume, or is it just something they "screen for" during interviews with no need for indicating your conservative nature in a cover letter/resume? It's just something I was curious about.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:23 pm

mx23250 wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:
John Everyman wrote:How do Chicago firms generally treat ND students in competition with Northwestern and UChi grads? Am I likely to get crushed up against them if I went to ND even if my numbers are overall better than those students'?

Also, do the domer alumni generally live up to their rep? Meaning, how many people tend to get jobs/foot in the door through alumni resources? and also on that note, how hard does ND work to put you in touch with alumni lawyers?


The alumni are the best. Sent out several cold emails to people at firms and they took the time to write long, detailed responses (eventually talked on the phone to a few of them, including a former clerk of a judge I was targeting). I got my 1L job (judicial internship with a double domer state CoA judge) and my clerkship (with a NDLS alum district judge) entirely because of ND. It also didn't hurt for my applications to conservative/libertarian public interest firms (one of which I'll be going to as a fellow after my clerkship).


Congrats on those excellent opportunities!!
So obviously ND, as a conservative university, does exceptionally well with placing students in prestigious clerkships, presumably due to the students sharing the conservative beliefs of the judges. I'm wondering though, how does an applicant for one of these clerkships come off as appearing "conservative" since not all NDLS students are conservative? If you're conservative and you want to pursue one of these clerkships, should you be sure to get involved with conservative organizations (or other things?) to demonstrate this in your cover letter/resume, or is it just something they "screen for" during interviews with no need for indicating your conservative nature in a cover letter/resume? It's just something I was curious about.


FedSoc is the easiest way to distinguish yourself. Get involved and run for an officer position. Attend the national symposium. It also doesn't hurt if you work in the movement (either before law school or 1L year - depending on your interests anywhere from Cato, Heritage, Becket Fund, Goldwater, PLF, Blackstone fellowship). I would say those are the two easiest ways to distinguish yourself. Some conservative circuit judges are known to strongly prefer Blackstone fellows, for instance.

mx23250
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby mx23250 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:30 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:
mx23250 wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:
John Everyman wrote:How do Chicago firms generally treat ND students in competition with Northwestern and UChi grads? Am I likely to get crushed up against them if I went to ND even if my numbers are overall better than those students'?

Also, do the domer alumni generally live up to their rep? Meaning, how many people tend to get jobs/foot in the door through alumni resources? and also on that note, how hard does ND work to put you in touch with alumni lawyers?


The alumni are the best. Sent out several cold emails to people at firms and they took the time to write long, detailed responses (eventually talked on the phone to a few of them, including a former clerk of a judge I was targeting). I got my 1L job (judicial internship with a double domer state CoA judge) and my clerkship (with a NDLS alum district judge) entirely because of ND. It also didn't hurt for my applications to conservative/libertarian public interest firms (one of which I'll be going to as a fellow after my clerkship).


Congrats on those excellent opportunities!!
So obviously ND, as a conservative university, does exceptionally well with placing students in prestigious clerkships, presumably due to the students sharing the conservative beliefs of the judges. I'm wondering though, how does an applicant for one of these clerkships come off as appearing "conservative" since not all NDLS students are conservative? If you're conservative and you want to pursue one of these clerkships, should you be sure to get involved with conservative organizations (or other things?) to demonstrate this in your cover letter/resume, or is it just something they "screen for" during interviews with no need for indicating your conservative nature in a cover letter/resume? It's just something I was curious about.


FedSoc is the easiest way to distinguish yourself. Get involved and run for an officer position. Attend the national symposium. It also doesn't hurt if you work in the movement (either before law school or 1L year - depending on your interests anywhere from Cato, Heritage, Becket Fund, Goldwater, PLF, Blackstone fellowship). I would say those are the two easiest ways to distinguish yourself. Some conservative circuit judges are known to strongly prefer Blackstone fellows, for instance.



Good to know! I was unaware of those fellowship opportunities. Thanks!

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ndirish2010
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:42 pm

mx23250 wrote:Good to know! I was unaware of those fellowship opportunities. Thanks!


PM me if you have any specific questions or want to know more, I've worked at one of those places, going to another one in the fall, and know people who've been at all of them at some point.

andythefir
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby andythefir » Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:38 pm

yossarian71 wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:
andythefir wrote:
CJ2017 wrote:How is the placement in DC for summer externships/internships? How does ND do with clerkships?



So, are we seeing 2014 as anomalous? High clerkships plus a crazy high biglaw representation. Or part of a trend?

Any insight into why 2014 was amazing?


Complete CDO overhaul. My 1L year the CDO was awful, doing absolutely nothing to help anyone outside of OCI. The paradigm shifted and caught them flat footed, which is why the class of 2011-2012 got so screwed. Now, if anything, they are too focused on non-OCI jobs. As an egregious ND homer, I'd like to think that this is more getting back to normal and 2011-2012 were the aberration. With how insanely connected the NDLS faculty are (a Con Law 1 professor picked the federal judges for Bush 43), students are going to be well connected to conservative judges for a long time.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:16 pm

It's certainly true that CDO is much better now. I would be interested to figure out how much of an effect that has had on outcomes. For instance, the fact that we now have someone focused on clerkships who actually knows what she's doing in CDO I think has helped quite a bit.

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yossarian
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby yossarian » Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:05 pm

andythefir wrote:
yossarian71 wrote:Any insight into why 2014 was amazing?


Complete CDO overhaul. My 1L year the CDO was awful, doing absolutely nothing to help anyone outside of OCI. The paradigm shifted and caught them flat footed, which is why the class of 2011-2012 got so screwed. Now, if anything, they are too focused on non-OCI jobs. As an egregious ND homer, I'd like to think that this is more getting back to normal and 2011-2012 were the aberration. With how insanely connected the NDLS faculty are (a Con Law 1 professor picked the federal judges for Bush 43), students are going to be well connected to conservative judges for a long time.


Thanks for the thoughts Andy & Irish. I really appreciate it.

Neither of you may be able to speak to this, but would you put chances of non-conservative clerkships above or below similar t15-25s? Obviously ND clerkship rate is higher than most, but if you factor out conservative judges, is it even in the same ballpark?

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ndirish2010
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:29 pm

It would be no worse than WUSTL or UIUC, I don't think.

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yossarian
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby yossarian » Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:17 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:It would be no worse than WUSTL or UIUC, I don't think.


Thanks!

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ndirish2010
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:19 pm

Bump.

gotsomequestions
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby gotsomequestions » Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:49 am

How many firms came for OCI this year? What chicago big law firms?


I have strong Chicago ties but would like to hear more specifically about it, please!

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ndirish2010
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:18 pm

I have the OCI list from 2011 OCI on my computer back home (so I can send it to you after work), but for more updated listings hopefully a current student can help.

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John Everyman
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby John Everyman » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:31 pm

gotsomequestions wrote:How many firms came for OCI this year? What chicago big law firms?


I have strong Chicago ties but would like to hear more specifically about it, please!


I too have strong Chi-town ties and would love to hear about how well ND places in Chicago so I can sleep better/possibly worse at night. We all know Chicago has struggled more than most markets in the recession and has been slower to recover. Any insight into the overall feeling around employment prospects within Chicago?

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ndirish2010
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:22 pm

The following firms came to OCI from Chicago in 2011 (when I did it):

Ungaretti & Harris
Jones Day
McGuireWoods
Chapman & Cutler
Jenner
Marshall Gerstein & Borun
Winston
Drinker Biddle
K&L Gates
Bryan Cave
Kirkland

Eastonlamp
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby Eastonlamp » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:42 pm

What would you estimate to be the cost of living on campus and off campus for 1 year? The website claims around $18k a year. Is that accurate or can you live for much less in South Bend?

Thanks!

harryho
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby harryho » Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:38 am

Hi, got two questions:

1) How many people got scholarship? Did the scholarship come with the acceptance or after you pay you deposit for enrolling?

2) What kind of financial aid are available? Does each one get a loan guaranteed if he need?

Appreciate for any information.

andythefir
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby andythefir » Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:56 pm

Eastonlamp wrote:What would you estimate to be the cost of living on campus and off campus for 1 year? The website claims around $18k a year. Is that accurate or can you live for much less in South Bend?

Thanks!


Fischer (the school provided housing) is $600/month but within walking distance. Living in SB can be really cheap, you could easily do it for <$10k. Admissions inflates how much everything will cost so that you can get more loans if you want it.

As for the earlier question about financial aid, I know it is available but I did not look into it myself. I got a scholarship, as did a lot of people in my class. I also know that all law school loans, for better or worse, are available to everyone who wants to go.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:03 pm

18K seems high. I think you could do it for 10K as well.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:07 am

Bump.

DomerSimpson
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby DomerSimpson » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:38 pm

Thanks again for all the useful info. Are there any specific professors that are helpful in post-graduation clerkship opportunities?

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ndirish2010
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:12 pm

Bill Kelley, AJ Bellia, and Rick Garnett would be the three most known for this. Kelley has by far the best connections, as he was the #2 guy in OLC under Bush 43 and responsible for vetting all of the administration's judicial selections.

DomerSimpson
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby DomerSimpson » Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:40 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:Bill Kelley, AJ Bellia, and Rick Garnett would be the three most known for this. Kelley has by far the best connections, as he was the #2 guy in OLC under Bush 43 and responsible for vetting all of the administration's judicial selections.


Thanks for the response. Any advice, based on personal experience, for someone who is hoping to clerk after NDLS? Is it mostly just luck/knowing the right people? (Assuming the prerequisite grades, LR, etc.)

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ndirish2010
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Re: Notre Dame Student(s) Taking Questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:20 pm

It helps if you're conservative or at least not liberal. Take classes with those profs (as well as Pojo, Kozel, and Amy Barrett), try to do directed readings with them, and get involved with Fed Soc (assuming the conservative thing applies). Bill Kelley is notoriously hard to get to like you, if you do, the benefits are astounding.




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