2nd Yr Biglaw Lit. Assoc., YLS Grad, TLS Alum Forum

[alexb240]

Also, please take Fed Courts w/ Resnik, Property w/ Ellickson, and do a clinic.

Ellickson doesn't teach Property anymore, sadly.

What!? Wow, that's sad. In that case, let me swap out that advice for: take CrimPro w/ Stith.

[Yukos]

In general, how much of the four weeks do people take? I know certain firms like W&C have unlimited vacation time because no one vacations anyway, which is a little unnerving.

[alexb240]

People definitely take their vacations. Pretty much everyone, I think, takes, over the course of the whole year, more than 75% of their vacation time. It seems like a lot of people will take one long (week or more) vacation in the summer, plus another around the holidays.

There are, however, a couple of unwritten rules about vacation. These should be obvious, but bear mentioning nevertheless. First, I think it's somewhat frowned upon to take more than two weeks at a time unless it's your wedding/honeymoon. I mean, you can do it, it's your right, but I think people can get a little annoyed. The flip side of this is that I would not save up all my vacation time and then announce in November that I'll be taking every Friday off until the end of the year. So the upshot of this is that you're more than welcome to use all your vacation time, but you should do sin a way that won't overly inconvenience your coworkers.

[legends159]

In general, how much of the four weeks do people take? I know certain firms like W&C have unlimited vacation time because no one vacations anyway, which is a little unnerving.

At my firm everyone takes all of their vacation, from the partner down to the junior associate. HR will call you to force you to take vacation if you haven't done so by the end of the year. The firm cares so you don't burn out.

And vacations are sacred - if you're on vacation, someone else covers for you and you're not responsible for anything. In the rarest of instances (the 1%) when you're irreplaceable for a deal you might either have to push back your vacation or be available during your vacation but the firm reimburses you for any travel plans you had to alter and replaces your vacation time to make up for it).

[legends159]

There are, however, a couple of unwritten rules about vacation. These should be obvious, but bear mentioning nevertheless. First, I think it's somewhat frowned upon to take more than two weeks at a time unless it's your wedding/honeymoon. I mean, you can do it, it's your right, but I think people can get a little annoyed. The flip side of this is that I would not save up all my vacation time and then announce in November that I'll be taking every Friday off until the end of the year. So the upshot of this is that you're more than welcome to use all your vacation time, but you should do sin a way that won't overly inconvenience your coworkers.

Similar unwritten rules, except it's encouraged to take more than 2 weeks because that's easier for the staffing partners to allocate work around. On the flipside - it is highly discouraged to take less than one week consistently - otherwise people would just take every Friday off and become unstaffable for weekend work.

Most people do one week at a time though so they can space out their vacations throughout the year. But those 2-3 week vacations are nice if you want to do some real traveling and still have time to relax.

[gottago]

deleted

[Ti Malice]

Also, please take Fed Courts w/ Resnik, Property w/ Ellickson, and do a clinic.

Ellickson doesn't teach Property anymore, sadly.

What!? Wow, that's sad. In that case, let me swap out that advice for: take CrimPro w/ Stith.

Yeah, sad indeed. He does still teach, though -- he's apparently just tired of teaching Property. Thinking of taking Land Use with him this year so I can get a taste of the fabled Ellickson Property experience.

[Anonymous Associate]

Do you see laterals being hired in the NY market from other parts of the country? I am at a CA firm, and am considering moving back east at some point.

Is the amount of hours you work typical at your firm? Typical for NY? It just seems incredibly high.

[tcliff]

So far as you've seen, is there any truth to the notion that golf is useful for networking/career advancement in law? A lot of people I know (generally, not involved in legal anything) say that it's a big help to play golf for your career. I also met a distant relative about a year ago who was a federal judge who (after golf somehow came up in conversation) said he never played the game, probably indicating it's not really that important.

Sorry if this seems overly trivial, but a lot of people throw out recommendations to take up golf, I don't really have an interest in the game right now, and I want to know if this is BS or if it has any truth.

[legends159]

Golf is helpful because many lawyers/clients play golf. But this applies to pretty much anything. It's about finding common ground and ways to connect with people.

[Royal]

What time do you typically leave the office when not in a trial or emergency motion situation?

[alexb240]

obviously no guarantee that I'll be in a position to decide this, but did you happen to choose YLS over HLS?

How does V5 work for YLS kids? @ HLS recruiters apparently count the # of H's you have, but does that work for YLS?

I met a YLS alum who said that when he went there in the early 00s, a small % of students had all Hs, then 10% or so had around half Hs half Ps, and that's it for Hs.

If you bid for WLRK, for example, does being @ YLS help you significantly more than if you had been in a similar class rank @ HLS?

I did choose YLS over HLS. I won't confess to know the inner-workings of firm recruitment, but it bears mentioning that at YLS your first semester is entirely ungraded. (I'm not sure if the same is true at HLS (which only moved to the H/P system some time after I'd already started at YLS).) The reason for bringing this up is that at OCI firms will only have one semester of graded class (e.g., four grades or whatever) to review. So I don't think there's as much value in "counting the H's" as there might be if you had two "graded" semesters to go on. All that said, I do think it helps to have at least one H among those graded classes to show the very top firms -- especially if the H is in a business law related class (bus orgs, securities law, etc.). As to your second point, again there's no such thing as a class rank -- there are literally only four grades (and often less than that, as many people will take a clinic or other ungraded class). Apologies if this isn't that helpful of an answer.

Sorry if this seems overly trivial, but a lot of people throw out recommendations to take up golf, I don't really have an interest in the game right now, and I want to know if this is BS or if it has any truth.

I've never played a round of golf in my life.

[t-14orbust]

Thanks for rekindling my hope in my future profession. Now I just need to get V5 litigation on the west coast..lol

[tirakon]

Are there any classes you didn't take in law school, but you wish you'd taken now that you're on the job?

[Yukos]

Just to clarify real quick, Harvard has H/P/LP (looks suspiciously like A/B/C doesn't it?) both semesters. Stanford has H/P like Yale, but all three quarters are graded. Yale is the only place that balls hard enough to have straight no grades first semester.

[t-14orbust]

Just to clarify real quick, Harvard has H/P/LP (looks suspiciously like A/B/C doesn't it?) both semesters. Stanford has H/P like Yale, but all three quarters are graded. Yale is the only place that balls hard enough to have straight no grades first semester.

Harvard:

3. (a) The annual GPA for students who matriculated as of, or after, Fall Term 2008 will be calculated by assigning the following values to grades: Honors: 4; Pass: 3; Low Pass: 2; Fail: 0. Dean’s Scholar Prize awards will carry an additional point. [1]

source: http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/care ... index.html

[banjo]

Thanks for taking questions. 1L at CCN here. Have you observed that litigation attracts a distinct personality type compared to corporate work? The corporate associate might have some insight into this as well.

[Younger Abstention]

alexb:

1. What does your work typically consist of? Legal research and memos? Do you (help to) draft briefs at this point? Any court appearances? What percentage of your practice is document review? Is your work different now that you are going in to your third year, as compared to when you first started?

2. It's hard to tell from TLS posts, of course, but it seems like you're a very good writer. Has your writing improved substantially since you started working at the firm? (This is not to suggest you were not adept before. I have no idea.)

Thank you.

[sikemenow]

For both associates here: is it difficult for you to manage your workload and time? I had a BigLaw senior associate tell me that, in his experience, hours often spill into weekends because many people don't make time management, consistency, and efficiency during the week a priority (while obviously acknowledging unforeseen deadlines that arise from time to time). Would you say that this is accurate in your experience and observation? Or does being a new associate simply lend itself to firedrills, and the ability to manage time becomes more obtainable simply as you gain seniority?

[legends159]

For both associates here: is it difficult for you to manage your workload and time? I had a BigLaw senior associate tell me that, in his experience, hours often spill into weekends because many people don't make time management, consistency, and efficiency during the week a priority (while obviously acknowledging unforeseen deadlines that arise from time to time). Would you say that this is accurate in your experience and observation? Or does being a new associate simply lend itself to firedrills, and the ability to manage time becomes more obtainable simply as you gain seniority?

It obviously depends on the practice group and the people you work with but I think it's a little bit of both, with more towards the latter. The reason being that since you're on the bottom of the totem pole your schedule can be dictated by the people above you and if they are inefficient at managing people then you end up with the short end of the stick. For example, I've had experiences where I do all my work on time and send it to the senior associate to review on Monday and she will not look at it until Friday afternoon and then turn it back to me with comments asking me to get her a new draft by Sunday. Well there goes my Saturday. This does not happen often and people like her get a reputation of this, but there's nothing I can do but to suck it up and try to avoid working with her in the future. As you get more senior you do gain more control over your schedule but you usually also get more work as more people in your year are leaving the firm.

[jingosaur]

Did either of you have any work experience before law school? If so, how does working in BigLaw compare to your previous job? I understand that you may have to be vague about this to be anonymous.

[alexb240]

For both associates here: is it difficult for you to manage your workload and time? I had a BigLaw senior associate tell me that, in his experience, hours often spill into weekends because many people don't make time management, consistency, and efficiency during the week a priority (while obviously acknowledging unforeseen deadlines that arise from time to time). Would you say that this is accurate in your experience and observation? Or does being a new associate simply lend itself to firedrills, and the ability to manage time becomes more obtainable simply as you gain seniority?

It obviously depends on the practice group and the people you work with but I think it's a little bit of both, with more towards the latter. The reason being that since you're on the bottom of the totem pole your schedule can be dictated by the people above you and if they are inefficient at managing people then you end up with the short end of the stick. For example, I've had experiences where I do all my work on time and send it to the senior associate to review on Monday and she will not look at it until Friday afternoon and then turn it back to me with comments asking me to get her a new draft by Sunday. Well there goes my Saturday. This does not happen often and people like her get a reputation of this, but there's nothing I can do but to suck it up and try to avoid working with her in the future. As you get more senior you do gain more control over your schedule but you usually also get more work as more people in your year are leaving the firm.

I think this is exactly right. There are occasions where I might be given an assignment on a Wednesday and asked for a new draft on Monday; in those instances, I obviously have a great deal of flexibility regarding when I complete the assignment. I could stay late one night during the week, try to work on it in increments over the course of several days, or spend my Sunday afternoon handling it. On the other hand, there are times when I'm beholden to the people above me to review my work and provide comments before I can turn a new draft, prepare for filing, etc. In those cases, you're hopeful that the people above you are mindful of your time, but have to accept that they are exceptionally busy and may genuinely not be able to provide you with comments until late Friday night, which can blow your Saturday wide open. And I agree regarding the general bend of the work-load/scheduling flexibility curve as you become more senior.

[alexb240]

Are there any classes you didn't take in law school, but you wish you'd taken now that you're on the job?

Not really. I would definitely recommend taking business organizations, evidence, and federal courts. If your school offers securities litigation or a similar class, that can only help. That said, it's not too hard to pick things up by checking out a treatise from the library or using Google.

[KaNa1986]

Not to thread-jack but...1st year (been here almost 11 months now) V5 corporate associate - happy to answer questions from the other end of the spectrum.

Can also answer interview related questions, as I've interviewed about 8 candidates so far (albeit lunch portion, so not sure whether my review actually matters).

What have you seen are the top exit options for someone in your department after 4-5 years in corporate? I know there would be a difference between Wachtell/Cravath and SullCrom/Skadden, but in general...

Doesn't Wachtell/S&C offer a boost for in-house positions are banks and financial institutions compared with CSM/Skadden?

[legends159]

Not to thread-jack but...1st year (been here almost 11 months now) V5 corporate associate - happy to answer questions from the other end of the spectrum.

Can also answer interview related questions, as I've interviewed about 8 candidates so far (albeit lunch portion, so not sure whether my review actually matters).

What have you seen are the top exit options for someone in your department after 4-5 years in corporate? I know there would be a difference between Wachtell/Cravath and SullCrom/Skadden, but in general...

Doesn't Wachtell/S&C offer a boost for in-house positions are banks and financial institutions compared with CSM/Skadden?

Doubtful that there is any boost. Only law students care about rankings and that's because they don't know better and need something to base their decision making. You do understand that vault rankings are based on vault emailing associates and asking them to rank the firms on a 1-5.

Wachtell also does very little work for financial institutions. Their corporate practice is very niche. Just because they are ranked #1 by vault is pretty meaningless if you want to do capital markets for example since they don't have a cap mkts practice (which is the practice area where financial institutions come into play).