Market with the best net gain

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t-14orbust
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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby t-14orbust » Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:50 pm

Big law firms hire with the intention of firing, why can't I work somewhere with the intention of leaving? It's not like I would leave right away, I'd stay for the 3-5 years that people normally do. \

edit: Also, won't every succeeding generation have the stigma of 'the worst generation' just because older people can't stand the younger whippersnappers? Forgive me if I'm ignorant, I do have good intentions.
Last edited by t-14orbust on Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tom Joad
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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby Tom Joad » Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:51 pm

t-14orbust wrote:Big law firms hire with the intention of firing, why can't I work somewhere with the intention of leaving? It's not like I would leave right away, I'd stay for the 3-5 years that people normally do.

You are definitely speaking in generalizations.

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t-14orbust
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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby t-14orbust » Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:53 pm

So you're telling me that there are big law firms that hire with the intention of making people partner? Sign me up!

fwiw I'm not at all trying to be argumentative or snarky, I really am interested in the way this stuff works.

blsingindisguise
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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby blsingindisguise » Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:54 pm

Tom Joad wrote:Don't be a flake and go work somewhere with the intention of leaving. That's why millenials have the reputation as the worst generation.


Trolliest or dumbest thing I've read all day.

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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby blsingindisguise » Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:55 pm

Tom Joad wrote:
t-14orbust wrote:Big law firms hire with the intention of firing, why can't I work somewhere with the intention of leaving? It's not like I would leave right away, I'd stay for the 3-5 years that people normally do.

You are definitely speaking in generalizations.


He is speaking in statistics. A tiny minority of biglaw associates make partner. The entire structure is a pyramid.

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Tom Joad
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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby Tom Joad » Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:56 pm

t-14orbust wrote:So you're telling me that there are big law firms that hire with the intention of making people partner? Sign me up!

fwiw I'm not at all trying to be argumentative or snarky, I really am interested in the way this stuff works.

It's like going for a walk down the street. You might not have the intention of meeting your soul mate, but it could happen.

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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby blsingindisguise » Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:56 pm

Tom Joad wrote:
t-14orbust wrote:So you're telling me that there are big law firms that hire with the intention of making people partner? Sign me up!

fwiw I'm not at all trying to be argumentative or snarky, I really am interested in the way this stuff works.

It's like going for a walk down the street. You might not have the intention of meeting your soul mate, but it could happen.


waht

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Tom Joad
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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby Tom Joad » Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:57 pm

blsingindisguise wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:
t-14orbust wrote:So you're telling me that there are big law firms that hire with the intention of making people partner? Sign me up!

fwiw I'm not at all trying to be argumentative or snarky, I really am interested in the way this stuff works.

It's like going for a walk down the street. You might not have the intention of meeting your soul mate, but it could happen.


waht

It is a metaphor.

blsingindisguise
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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby blsingindisguise » Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:59 pm

Tom Joad wrote:
blsingindisguise wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:
t-14orbust wrote:So you're telling me that there are big law firms that hire with the intention of making people partner? Sign me up!

fwiw I'm not at all trying to be argumentative or snarky, I really am interested in the way this stuff works.

It's like going for a walk down the street. You might not have the intention of meeting your soul mate, but it could happen.


waht

It is a metaphor.


What is the point of your metaphor in relation to taking a biglaw job with the intention of leaving in 3-5 years?

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t-14orbust
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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby t-14orbust » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:01 pm

I mean, I will have an open mind about staying at the firm I start at. I wouldn't work somewhere where I would definitely not want to stay long-term. I'd just like to know what my prospects are for coming back to California, considering average biglaw associates only last about ~4years(I think). Also, I thought it was almost the norm for many big law associates to come in seeking quality experience, with hopes of lateraling to something less demanding at a firm or in-house. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

blsingindisguise: Her metaphor was on the side of the big law firm hiring people, not the side of associates being hired.

beautyistruth
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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby beautyistruth » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:07 pm

... If I work for Texas and I make partner, that would be awesome.

But since I have to live in reality, I too am interested in the exit options from Texas into other markets, particularly the West Coast.

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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby blsingindisguise » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:13 pm

t-14orbust wrote:blsingindisguise: Her metaphor was on the side of the big law firm hiring people, not the side of associates being hired.


Right. But again (assuming the metaphor is even apt, which it isn't), why should an associate care? Biglaw is structured as a pyramid. There are enough partner slots for maybe 1/5, 1/7, 1/10 associates to make partner. To be clear, biglaw hiring partners are not romantics ambling down the street, they're running a business and they know exactly what they're doing. They don't hire 7 associates for every partner because they hope they'll meet that special someone, they hire them because they know they can profit off them for 3-5 years and then toss/push them aside. That's the system. Why should we live with illusions about this?

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t-14orbust
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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby t-14orbust » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:13 pm

Right? Maybe a better way to put it is that I won't be going in with the intention of leaving, but with the expectation of being asked to leave.

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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby 09042014 » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:41 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
superdingle2000 wrote:I think Vincent and Elkins in Houston starts associates off at the NYC rate, so if you land that you'll be livin the dream. Well, actually, I guess it'll still suck since you're in Texas.

According to this site, 160k in Houston would be equivalent to 340k in NYC. If that's accurate, holy shit.

http://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-livin ... -ny/160000

Those cost of living calculators don't really deal well with NYC because the proportions of your income that go to different areas are so different. Rent will be much higher obviously, but then your transportation is only maybe $150 a month, depending on how many cabs you take, which is a lot cheaper than owning a car in Texas. And when you're just out of school, one of your biggest expenses will probably be student loans, which cost the same no matter where you live. Having said that, you still get way more for your money in Houston, no doubt. I'm just skeptical it's like having more than twice the income.


Big +1.

The big factors are rent and taxes. After that the differences are really minor when you are talking about a large salary (shit like electricity and gas costs are a round error).

It's a mistake to assume the relationship is linear like these online calculators do.

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danquayle
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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby danquayle » Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:08 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
superdingle2000 wrote:I think Vincent and Elkins in Houston starts associates off at the NYC rate, so if you land that you'll be livin the dream. Well, actually, I guess it'll still suck since you're in Texas.

According to this site, 160k in Houston would be equivalent to 340k in NYC. If that's accurate, holy shit.

http://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-livin ... -ny/160000

Those cost of living calculators don't really deal well with NYC because the proportions of your income that go to different areas are so different. Rent will be much higher obviously, but then your transportation is only maybe $150 a month, depending on how many cabs you take, which is a lot cheaper than owning a car in Texas. And when you're just out of school, one of your biggest expenses will probably be student loans, which cost the same no matter where you live. Having said that, you still get way more for your money in Houston, no doubt. I'm just skeptical it's like having more than twice the income.


Big +1.

The big factors are rent and taxes. After that the differences are really minor when you are talking about a large salary (shit like electricity and gas costs are a round error).

It's a mistake to assume the relationship is linear like these online calculators do.


Right. Definitely rent. I just use a threshold approach. Like I think its kinda hard to live in Manhattan for less than $140k, but $80k in Chicago would probably be doable. So $100k in Chicago is way better than $100k in New York, but would you really consider a $160k offer in Chicago significantly better than a $220k in New York?

I think these cost of living comparison tools are pretty useful at helping with thresholds, but not nearly so beyond that. So when CNN Money tells me $80k in Chicago is about the same as $152k in Manhattan, it's probably not too far off. But when it says $160k in Chicago equals $305k? I'm a little skeptical.

utlaw2007
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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby utlaw2007 » Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:34 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
superdingle2000 wrote:I think Vincent and Elkins in Houston starts associates off at the NYC rate, so if you land that you'll be livin the dream. Well, actually, I guess it'll still suck since you're in Texas.

According to this site, 160k in Houston would be equivalent to 340k in NYC. If that's accurate, holy shit.

http://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-livin ... -ny/160000

Those cost of living calculators don't really deal well with NYC because the proportions of your income that go to different areas are so different. Rent will be much higher obviously, but then your transportation is only maybe $150 a month, depending on how many cabs you take, which is a lot cheaper than owning a car in Texas. And when you're just out of school, one of your biggest expenses will probably be student loans, which cost the same no matter where you live. Having said that, you still get way more for your money in Houston, no doubt. I'm just skeptical it's like having more than twice the income.


It really depends on how far you live from work and how much gas mileage your car gets, including insurance. I do not pay anywhere close to $150 a month on my car, neither does my brother or his wife. And I live in Houston, like right in the middle of the city. But I live very close to my office and my car gets great gas mileage. My point is that those expenses can be controlled by the person.
Last edited by utlaw2007 on Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby utlaw2007 » Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:41 pm

I've never lived in New York, but I have lived in Houston all of my life except for law school and undergrad. I can say this. From what I have observed in the case of expenses just for buying or renting, Houston is light years cheaper than New York. I do believe 160k is like 350k in New York. Well maybe not that much. It is ridiculously cheap to live here. Of course, this depends on where you live. But I would say renting in New York is easily twice as much as renting in Houston. And you don't have to be resigned to renting in the hood here, either. I'm talking luxury apartments. The same thing can be said for housing. The only difference with housing is that for one to get a cheap house in Houston that is akin to a castle for very cheap, one has to live out in the burbs. And if one lives out in the burbs, your commute is not going to be nice. In that case, be prepared to pay more than $150 a month on car expenses.

Houses inside the city are expensive. And once you get to the million dollar range, there really isn't much difference if at all. Price per square foot might be a little cheaper in Texas at that range. But I don't believe it is a significant difference unless it's a condo, condos being significantly more expensive in New York than in Texas.
Last edited by utlaw2007 on Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby utlaw2007 » Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:48 pm

But yes, every "biglaw" firm in Texas, even the not so known or prestigious ones pay 160k to start. A few of them do pay 145k. I believe Winstead does. But most pay 160k. I know because several of my law school classmates have told me what they make.

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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby utlaw2007 » Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:02 pm

You can get a nice luxury apartment in Houston near or inside the inner loop for around $1300. Some cost more than that but I have seen plenty of nice ones in that range because I have looked at them for myself. I have no idea, but it would seem to me that a nice apartment in New York would be at least $2600 a month. I don't know, I am just throwing that out there for someone to verify.

If one chooses not to get a luxury apartment in Houston, one can get a decent one in a decent area that is not the hood for between $600 and $800 dollars. And there are plenty closer to $600 in decent areas. I doubt that one could get a nice apartment in New York for $1200 dollars. But I have no idea. Again, I'm just throwing that figure out for verification.

I know all about apartment renting in Houston because I have been through this song and dance recently for myself.

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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby blsingindisguise » Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:05 pm

utlaw2007 wrote:You can get a nice luxury apartment in Houston near or inside the inner loop for around $1300. Some cost more than that but I have seen plenty of nice ones in that range because I have looked at them for myself. I have no idea, but it would seem to me that a nice apartment in New York would be at least $2600 a month. I don't know, I am just throwing that out there for someone to verify.

If one chooses not to get a luxury apartment in Houston, one can get a decent one in a decent area that is not the hood for between $600 and $800 dollars. And there are plenty closer to $600 in decent areas. I doubt that one could get a nice apartment in New York for $1200 dollars. But I have no idea. Again, I'm just throwing that figure out for verification.

I know all about apartment renting in Houston because I have been through this song and dance recently for myself.


In Manhattan I don't even think $2600 gets you a "nice" apartment these days. Maybe a nice studio.

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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:10 pm

utlaw2007 wrote:You can get a nice luxury apartment in Houston near or inside the inner loop for around $1300. Some cost more than that but I have seen plenty of nice ones in that range because I have looked at them for myself. I have no idea, but it would seem to me that a nice apartment in New York would be at least $2600 a month. I don't know, I am just throwing that out there for someone to verify.

If one chooses not to get a luxury apartment in Houston, one can get a decent one in a decent area that is not the hood for between $600 and $800 dollars. And there are plenty closer to $600 in decent areas. I doubt that one could get a nice apartment in New York for $1200 dollars. But I have no idea. Again, I'm just throwing that figure out for verification.

I know all about apartment renting in Houston because I have been through this song and dance recently for myself.

You're absolutely right about the difference in rent, but my point was after rent (and taxes as DF pointed out), your money doesn't go all that much farther in a place like Texas. Maybe you spend an extra $2000 a month in NYC on rent than in Houston. Don't get me wrong, that's a huge chunk of change that you're flushing down the toilet every month. But that's $24,000 a year. Add state and city taxes at let's call it 10% off the top of your $160k and the difference is $40,000. After that, you can probably burn through cash a lot faster in NYC if you wanted to, but you don't have to. Utilities are close enough, transportation is cheaper in NYC (your <$150/month car calculation must be for a fully paid-off car that never needs repairs), etc. And the more you make, the less this difference makes. Making $50k in Texas is probably like making $90-100k in NYC. That's huge. But making $160k in Texas is probably like making $200-225k in NYC. You're doing pretty good either way.

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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby blsingindisguise » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:37 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
utlaw2007 wrote:You can get a nice luxury apartment in Houston near or inside the inner loop for around $1300. Some cost more than that but I have seen plenty of nice ones in that range because I have looked at them for myself. I have no idea, but it would seem to me that a nice apartment in New York would be at least $2600 a month. I don't know, I am just throwing that out there for someone to verify.

If one chooses not to get a luxury apartment in Houston, one can get a decent one in a decent area that is not the hood for between $600 and $800 dollars. And there are plenty closer to $600 in decent areas. I doubt that one could get a nice apartment in New York for $1200 dollars. But I have no idea. Again, I'm just throwing that figure out for verification.

I know all about apartment renting in Houston because I have been through this song and dance recently for myself.

You're absolutely right about the difference in rent, but my point was after rent (and taxes as DF pointed out), your money doesn't go all that much farther in a place like Texas. Maybe you spend an extra $2000 a month in NYC on rent than in Houston. Don't get me wrong, that's a huge chunk of change that you're flushing down the toilet every month. But that's $24,000 a year. Add state and city taxes at let's call it 10% off the top of your $160k and the difference is $40,000. After that, you can probably burn through cash a lot faster in NYC if you wanted to, but you don't have to. Utilities are close enough, transportation is cheaper in NYC (your <$150/month car calculation must be for a fully paid-off car that never needs repairs), etc. And the more you make, the less this difference makes. Making $50k in Texas is probably like making $90-100k in NYC. That's huge. But making $160k in Texas is probably like making $200-225k in NYC. You're doing pretty good either way.


Yeah but other things are much more expensive in NYC too -- groceries, alcohol, entertainment, clothing, furniture, pretty much any consumer good that you buy from a brick-and-mortar location. And sales tax is higher too.

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:06 pm

I'm not sure the answer is TX, I understand the tax reason but there are a lot of secondary markets where you can start at 125/130 and the cost of living is going to be much lower than in Houston/Dallas.

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danquayle
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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby danquayle » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:49 am

blsingindisguise wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
utlaw2007 wrote:You can get a nice luxury apartment in Houston near or inside the inner loop for around $1300. Some cost more than that but I have seen plenty of nice ones in that range because I have looked at them for myself. I have no idea, but it would seem to me that a nice apartment in New York would be at least $2600 a month. I don't know, I am just throwing that out there for someone to verify.

If one chooses not to get a luxury apartment in Houston, one can get a decent one in a decent area that is not the hood for between $600 and $800 dollars. And there are plenty closer to $600 in decent areas. I doubt that one could get a nice apartment in New York for $1200 dollars. But I have no idea. Again, I'm just throwing that figure out for verification.

I know all about apartment renting in Houston because I have been through this song and dance recently for myself.

You're absolutely right about the difference in rent, but my point was after rent (and taxes as DF pointed out), your money doesn't go all that much farther in a place like Texas. Maybe you spend an extra $2000 a month in NYC on rent than in Houston. Don't get me wrong, that's a huge chunk of change that you're flushing down the toilet every month. But that's $24,000 a year. Add state and city taxes at let's call it 10% off the top of your $160k and the difference is $40,000. After that, you can probably burn through cash a lot faster in NYC if you wanted to, but you don't have to. Utilities are close enough, transportation is cheaper in NYC (your <$150/month car calculation must be for a fully paid-off car that never needs repairs), etc. And the more you make, the less this difference makes. Making $50k in Texas is probably like making $90-100k in NYC. That's huge. But making $160k in Texas is probably like making $200-225k in NYC. You're doing pretty good either way.


Yeah but other things are much more expensive in NYC too -- groceries, alcohol, entertainment, clothing, furniture, pretty much any consumer good that you buy from a brick-and-mortar location. And sales tax is higher too.


Groceries and furniture maybe, but I don't know about everything on that list. If anything, I think good entertainment and food is easier to get in NYC than a lot of cities. I know I eat better in cheap in NYC than I did in my old small metro. Sure, the high end is a hell of a lot more expensive, but there are just so many more options in New York. Fashion is a great example... you'll find the most expensive clothes in the country here, but also the largest availability of cheap, good clothing. No doubt everything is more expensive across the board here, but you have enough options that there are also things that I find I spend less money on than previously.

mr.hands
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Re: Market with the best net gain

Postby mr.hands » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:56 am

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:I'm not sure the answer is TX, I understand the tax reason but there are a lot of secondary markets where you can start at 125/130 and the cost of living is going to be much lower than in Houston/Dallas.


Yeah. Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh (?).




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