Law school difficulty

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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Scotusnerd
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Re: Law school difficulty

Postby Scotusnerd » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:05 pm

Are you guys seriously arguing whether Law School is harder than high school?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8cZUhiP3us

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bk1
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Re: Law school difficulty

Postby bk1 » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:12 pm

OP you also failed to read the rules regarding posting in the law student forums. Law just does not seem like a great career for you. Thread moved.

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PatriotP74
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spleenworship
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Re: Law school difficulty

Postby spleenworship » Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:13 am

PatriotP74 wrote:I had thought about posting something a little more detailed in questions than this post but this is a start so let me add my questions/take to this,

Can some more students elaborate a bit more on exam types, and maybe what is any random day in a class about? What exactly is it that you do in one class on a random day and what is it you have to do outside of class for that one day?

Do those of you pursing this path already, ENJOY reading and writing or is it something that you can do that is more of a must for doing what you ultimately would like to do?



1. Exams: Multiple choice (rare, but not unheard of) or Essay. Essay exams are a giant hypothetical (3-15 pages single spaced in length) that you have to analyze and write a 20 page paper on in 3 hours. Class: I sit in class and listen to an old person drone on about stuff I'll never use. Occasionally some gunner asks a really stupid question and I have to fight the urge to repeatedly slam my head into a table until I reach blessed unconsciousness. Then I get up and go to my next class. Repeat.

2. Then, as a 1L, I would go home with the book, outlines, and supplements and actually try to teach myself the law we will be tested on. 72% of this will never be used again after the test. This takes between 1 and 5 hours, depending. Of course, once I was a 2L I stopped doing this and simply crammed all the crap into my head in the 2-5 days before the test. As a 1L and even as a 2L I would still have to write papers, apply for jobs, and prep for practical classes like trial skills every week. Sometimes I would have to write motions or whatnot. Or do legal research. Call it an average of 20 hours a week.

3. I LOVE reading and writing. Spending 3 hours finding a case exactly on point and using it in a motion I'm writing to destroy the other side's arguments is nearly orgasmic for me. I love research. I love reading endlessly (sometimes I'll read an off point case just for fun... like the dude in Indiana who killed his mom and dad with samurai swords). I love writing and getting the phrasing just right to give the impression I want. I love that crap. I want to be a trial lawyer, and I LOVE working a jury. But 90% of my success in the courtroom will come down to how well I researched read and wrote (pretrial motions are VITALLY important) and how well I investigated and read to prepare my opening, closing, directs, and crosses.

It really is 85-95% reading and writing. Even for prosecutors and public defenders it's like 70% that. Sorry.

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Scotusnerd
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Re: Law school difficulty

Postby Scotusnerd » Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:21 am

spleenworship wrote:1. Exams: Multiple choice (rare, but not unheard of) or Essay. Essay exams are a giant hypothetical (3-15 pages single spaced in length) that you have to analyze and write a 20 page paper on in 3 hours. Class: I sit in class and listen to an old person drone on about stuff I'll never use. Occasionally some gunner asks a really stupid question and I have to fight the urge to repeatedly slam my head into a table until I reach blessed unconsciousness. Then I get up and go to my next class. Repeat.

2. Then, as a 1L, I would go home with the book, outlines, and supplements and actually try to teach myself the law we will be tested on. 72% of this will never be used again after the test. This takes between 1 and 5 hours, depending. Of course, once I was a 2L I stopped doing this and simply crammed all the crap into my head in the 2-5 days before the test. As a 1L and even as a 2L I would still have to write papers, apply for jobs, and prep for practical classes like trial skills every week. Sometimes I would have to write motions or whatnot. Or do legal research. Call it an average of 20 hours a week.

3. I LOVE reading and writing. Spending 3 hours finding a case exactly on point and using it in a motion I'm writing to destroy the other side's arguments is nearly orgasmic for me. I love research. I love reading endlessly (sometimes I'll read an off point case just for fun... like the dude in Indiana who killed his mom and dad with samurai swords). I love writing and getting the phrasing just right to give the impression I want. I love that crap. I want to be a trial lawyer, and I LOVE working a jury. But 90% of my success in the courtroom will come down to how well I researched read and wrote (pretrial motions are VITALLY important) and how well I investigated and read to prepare my opening, closing, directs, and crosses.

It really is 85-95% reading and writing. Even for prosecutors and public defenders it's like 70% that. Sorry.


Yeah Spleenworship's right. I do appeals from the trial stuff he's talking about. Appeals are 99% reading and writing (1% oral argument.) Depending on the case, I read anywhere from 100 pages to 7,000 pages of records before even touching the law. I take careful notes on the relevant facts to the issues they're alleging, and carefully layout when and how they argue that issue, in case there's any sort of error preservation argument I can bring up. Only after I do all that do I start researching. And, yes, pre-trial motions are absolutely essential to success.

And I 100% agree with Spleenworship about how much I enjoy writing. Being able to take apart opposing counsel with a well-drafted and careful brief is simply the best feeling in the world.

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spleenworship
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Re: Law school difficulty

Postby spleenworship » Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:30 am

Scotusnerd wrote:
spleenworship wrote:1. Exams: Multiple choice (rare, but not unheard of) or Essay. Essay exams are a giant hypothetical (3-15 pages single spaced in length) that you have to analyze and write a 20 page paper on in 3 hours. Class: I sit in class and listen to an old person drone on about stuff I'll never use. Occasionally some gunner asks a really stupid question and I have to fight the urge to repeatedly slam my head into a table until I reach blessed unconsciousness. Then I get up and go to my next class. Repeat.

2. Then, as a 1L, I would go home with the book, outlines, and supplements and actually try to teach myself the law we will be tested on. 72% of this will never be used again after the test. This takes between 1 and 5 hours, depending. Of course, once I was a 2L I stopped doing this and simply crammed all the crap into my head in the 2-5 days before the test. As a 1L and even as a 2L I would still have to write papers, apply for jobs, and prep for practical classes like trial skills every week. Sometimes I would have to write motions or whatnot. Or do legal research. Call it an average of 20 hours a week.

3. I LOVE reading and writing. Spending 3 hours finding a case exactly on point and using it in a motion I'm writing to destroy the other side's arguments is nearly orgasmic for me. I love research. I love reading endlessly (sometimes I'll read an off point case just for fun... like the dude in Indiana who killed his mom and dad with samurai swords). I love writing and getting the phrasing just right to give the impression I want. I love that crap. I want to be a trial lawyer, and I LOVE working a jury. But 90% of my success in the courtroom will come down to how well I researched read and wrote (pretrial motions are VITALLY important) and how well I investigated and read to prepare my opening, closing, directs, and crosses.

It really is 85-95% reading and writing. Even for prosecutors and public defenders it's like 70% that. Sorry.


Yeah Spleenworship's right. I do appeals from the trial stuff he's talking about. Appeals are 99% reading and writing (1% oral argument.) Depending on the case, I read anywhere from 100 pages to 7,000 pages of records before even touching the law. I take careful notes on the relevant facts to the issues they're alleging, and carefully layout when and how they argue that issue, in case there's any sort of error preservation argument I can bring up. Only after I do all that do I start researching. And, yes, pre-trial motions are absolutely essential to success.

And I 100% agree with Spleenworship about how much I enjoy writing. Being able to take apart opposing counsel with a well-drafted and careful brief is simply the best feeling in the world.



That's another good point in the bolded. Even at the trial level you have a lot of reading that isn't the law. F'rinstance, I work at a med-mal plaintiffs firm. I spend at least 8-24 hours a week just reading through medical records, interrogatory answers, produced manuals and logsheets, and depo transcripts before I even start writing motions and such in the case.

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Re: Law school difficulty

Postby hichvichwoh » Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:41 am

PatriotP74 wrote:I had thought about posting something a little more detailed in questions than this post but this is a start so let me add my questions/take to this,

Can some more students elaborate a bit more on exam types, and maybe what is any random day in a class about? What exactly is it that you do in one class on a random day and what is it you have to do outside of class for that one day?

Do those of you pursing this path already, ENJOY reading and writing or is it something that you can do that is more of a must for doing what you ultimately would like to do?


I have had a few different test types, so i'll just list them:

1. Standard in-class issue-spotter: professor gives you a hypothetical situation, your goal is to spot the legal issues raised by the hypothetical facts given to you, then apply what you have learned to discuss what arguments either side should make and who should win.

2. the "objective" exam: this can be either multiple choice or short answer, and the difference is that instead of being given a complex set of interrelated facts you are given a series of discrete questions and are expected to come up with the "right" answer for each question, which can either be a single legal issue or maybe something more factual. These suck and are pretty rare, I think.

3. the "subjective" exam: this is pretty much the opposite of the objective exam. The professor gives you an incredibly open-ended question that implicates some of the policy or moral issues that arose during the course. This is pretty much just like any of the essay exams you you BSed your way through in high school or undergrad, except this time your competing against an entire class of expert BSers.

3. The take-home issue spotter (casual): just like an in-class issue spotter but the professor gives you more time (maybe 8 hours) to think about and write out your answers. This increases the quality of all the exams submitted, so really it benefits people who can produce quality work but don't work well under a tight time restraint.

4. The take-home issue spotter (butt-fucking): just like the in-class issue spotter, except the content and duration of the exam is much longer. These suck, and can be a major endurance test.

As for what goes on in class, that also varies wildly. Some profs do the old-fashioned Socratic method, with cold-calling students and asking them questions about cases. Some are more straightforward and will just point out legal issues/arguments/ambiguities in clear terms. In pretty much every class, however, your job is to show up and try to follow what's going on, while taking notes. Outside of class you should be doing at least SOME reading of SOME kind, but depending on the class/your study habits you could be reading the casebook or a supplement. I personally outlined throughout the semester instead of waiting until before exams, but some people wait or don't write their own outlines at all.

I don't think it's an issue of whether people ENJOY reading or writing, as the answer to that question will most assuredly vary with the subject matter. However, it's probably a must that you posses the ability to read and write intelligibly about subjects that don't really interest you.

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Re: Law school difficulty

Postby hichvichwoh » Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:49 am

PatriotP74 wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
Scotusnerd wrote:
spleenworship wrote:1. Exams: Multiple choice (rare, but not unheard of) or Essay. Essay exams are a giant hypothetical (3-15 pages single spaced in length) that you have to analyze and write a 20 page paper on in 3 hours. Class: I sit in class and listen to an old person drone on about stuff I'll never use. Occasionally some gunner asks a really stupid question and I have to fight the urge to repeatedly slam my head into a table until I reach blessed unconsciousness. Then I get up and go to my next class. Repeat.

2. Then, as a 1L, I would go home with the book, outlines, and supplements and actually try to teach myself the law we will be tested on. 72% of this will never be used again after the test. This takes between 1 and 5 hours, depending. Of course, once I was a 2L I stopped doing this and simply crammed all the crap into my head in the 2-5 days before the test. As a 1L and even as a 2L I would still have to write papers, apply for jobs, and prep for practical classes like trial skills every week. Sometimes I would have to write motions or whatnot. Or do legal research. Call it an average of 20 hours a week.

3. I LOVE reading and writing. Spending 3 hours finding a case exactly on point and using it in a motion I'm writing to destroy the other side's arguments is nearly orgasmic for me. I love research. I love reading endlessly (sometimes I'll read an off point case just for fun... like the dude in Indiana who killed his mom and dad with samurai swords). I love writing and getting the phrasing just right to give the impression I want. I love that crap. I want to be a trial lawyer, and I LOVE working a jury. But 90% of my success in the courtroom will come down to how well I researched read and wrote (pretrial motions are VITALLY important) and how well I investigated and read to prepare my opening, closing, directs, and crosses.

It really is 85-95% reading and writing. Even for prosecutors and public defenders it's like 70% that. Sorry.


Yeah Spleenworship's right. I do appeals from the trial stuff he's talking about. Appeals are 99% reading and writing (1% oral argument.) Depending on the case, I read anywhere from 100 pages to 7,000 pages of records before even touching the law. I take careful notes on the relevant facts to the issues they're alleging, and carefully layout when and how they argue that issue, in case there's any sort of error preservation argument I can bring up. Only after I do all that do I start researching. And, yes, pre-trial motions are absolutely essential to success.

And I 100% agree with Spleenworship about how much I enjoy writing. Being able to take apart opposing counsel with a well-drafted and careful brief is simply the best feeling in the world.



That's another good point in the bolded. Even at the trial level you have a lot of reading that isn't the law. F'rinstance, I work at a med-mal plaintiffs firm. I spend at least 8-24 hours a week just reading through medical records, interrogatory answers, produced manuals and logsheets, and depo transcripts before I even start writing motions and such in the case.



Thank you! That is the kind of stuff i was looking for/interested in! I read so many stories of people making it sound like your spending 100 hours a week reading and writing just to come out with a C, i suppose ive been somewhat of a good lecture person as to i dont need to use books much in Undergrad, so that is a change i will have to make and plan on trying this year just to get used to it.

Question for anyone in Business law vs Criminal law etc whats the difference in classes as well as real world work would it be similar in workload/type of work and only different in topics or would Business be more writing and reading than others?

thanks hopefully these are threads future 0Ls can find!


classes aren't very different, even though actual practice is VERY different.

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Scotusnerd
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Re: Law school difficulty

Postby Scotusnerd » Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:53 am

I can only speak for criminal appellate law, since that's what I'm involved in. I have no idea about business law.

To get something usable by a lawyer, your average law student probably needs to edit something three to five times, at least one of them with help. That's all the way through the entire piece you just wrote, carefully checking every reference, every sentence, and every citation. If you are insecure or have a sensitive ego, this will really, really suck. I hated getting my first papers back in law school, but now I think my professors were too nice. Good writing comes down to brutal editing, preferrably by multiple people over a period of a few days. This is my routine for new cases:

1. When I get a case, I read between 100-7000 pages of materials before even touching legal issues. This takes anywhere from several days to a week or two, depending on the complexity of the case. Sometimes, you will get a file that is completely jumbled beyond all recognition, and then you need to assemble it properly as well. That also takes time.
2. I then research caselaw on the issues. This takes another day or two.
3. I then spend a lot of time "getting" my argument. Probably another day or two. This often happens concurrently with caselaw.
4. Despite my best efforts, I often write a really shitty brief.
5. I edit the brief a first time and rewrite a lot of material. I then put it up and work on another case for a day.
6. I pull it back out and edit it again.
7. Now, I send it over to another lawyer in my section for editing. I consider myself very fortunate to have lawyers around who are willing to do this for me. I edit the paper with most of their suggestions. Some I do not follow for stylistic reasons.
8. Shelved again. Now, I will probably do one more round of edits and then I"m ready to submit!
9. ....or not, actually. I sit on the paper another day and make absolutely certain it's right before submitting it to my boss.

This is completely unsupervised. No one is going to put their foot up my ass. It's very liberating, but this is NOT for everyone. If you do not like reading, STAY FAR AWAY FROM APPELLATE LAW.

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Re: Law school difficulty

Postby spleenworship » Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:08 am

PatriotP74 wrote:

Thank you! That is the kind of stuff i was looking for/interested in! I read so many stories of people making it sound like your spending 100 hours a week reading and writing just to come out with a C, i suppose ive been somewhat of a good lecture person as to i dont need to use books much in Undergrad, so that is a change i will have to make and plan on trying this year just to get used to it.

Question for anyone in Business law vs Criminal law etc whats the difference in classes as well as real world work would it be similar in workload/type of work and only different in topics or would Business be more writing and reading than others?

thanks hopefully these are threads future 0Ls can find!


You will need to read the books, at least during 1L. And, also, those last 2-5 days before the exam I am reading or taking practice tests 12-14 hours a day.

Seriously, didn't you say you hated reading and writing?

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Re: Law school difficulty

Postby spleenworship » Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:36 am

PatriotP74 wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
PatriotP74 wrote:

Thank you! That is the kind of stuff i was looking for/interested in! I read so many stories of people making it sound like your spending 100 hours a week reading and writing just to come out with a C, i suppose ive been somewhat of a good lecture person as to i dont need to use books much in Undergrad, so that is a change i will have to make and plan on trying this year just to get used to it.

Question for anyone in Business law vs Criminal law etc whats the difference in classes as well as real world work would it be similar in workload/type of work and only different in topics or would Business be more writing and reading than others?

thanks hopefully these are threads future 0Ls can find!


You will need to read the books, at least during 1L. And, also, those last 2-5 days before the exam I am reading or taking practice tests 12-14 hours a day.

Seriously, didn't you say you hated reading and writing?


Where are practice tests or would Google search bring them up just to look at for curiosity? EDIT: google brought them up, should have done it before asking!

and no that wasn't me i believe the OP said that!


Sorry, I got confused. Ok, yeah, you absolutely do not need to read/study/do homework more than 40 hours a week unless you have a learning disability.

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Re: Law school difficulty

Postby sinfiery » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:27 am

InferenceOptional wrote:I have not found I have been penalized for having an 8-year old's spelling ability, but I'm sure it does not help.


Is there no spell check on the Exam software? WTF

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Law school difficulty

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:29 am

sinfiery wrote:
InferenceOptional wrote:I have not found I have been penalized for having an 8-year old's spelling ability, but I'm sure it does not help.


Is there no spell check on the Exam software? WTF

There usually is, but it's manual (doesn't check as you go), and sometimes you don't have time to run it.

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Re: Law school difficulty

Postby sinfiery » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:55 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:There usually is, but it's manual (doesn't check as you go), and sometimes you don't have time to run it.


Comforting and yet terrifying

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Re: Law school difficulty

Postby hichvichwoh » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:29 am

PatriotP74 wrote:How much actual on paper writing has everyone had to do? I've always heard the joke i needed to be a doctor because my handwriting sucks, and admittedly it does!


some professors will not allow you to use computers in class, so you might have to take handwritten notes. I have not heard of any professors requiring handwritten exams, as that would most likely be a horrible experience for the professor who has to read all of them.

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Re: Law school difficulty

Postby blsingindisguise » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:38 am

hichvichwoh wrote:
PatriotP74 wrote:How much actual on paper writing has everyone had to do? I've always heard the joke i needed to be a doctor because my handwriting sucks, and admittedly it does!


some professors will not allow you to use computers in class, so you might have to take handwritten notes. I have not heard of any professors requiring handwritten exams, as that would most likely be a horrible experience for the professor who has to read all of them.


This is exceedingly rare today. I knew of only one professor in my school who had this rule, and there was an easy way around it -- don't sign up for his class.

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Re: Law school difficulty

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:42 am

blsingindisguise wrote:
hichvichwoh wrote:
PatriotP74 wrote:How much actual on paper writing has everyone had to do? I've always heard the joke i needed to be a doctor because my handwriting sucks, and admittedly it does!


some professors will not allow you to use computers in class, so you might have to take handwritten notes. I have not heard of any professors requiring handwritten exams, as that would most likely be a horrible experience for the professor who has to read all of them.


This is exceedingly rare today. I knew of only one professor in my school who had this rule, and there was an easy way around it -- don't sign up for his class.

Not always so easy in 1L. Two of my professors banned laptops. But I agree that it's not common, and not having a laptop in class should only be annoying rather than make things more difficult.

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Re: Law school difficulty

Postby cinephile » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:49 am

hichvichwoh wrote:
PatriotP74 wrote:How much actual on paper writing has everyone had to do? I've always heard the joke i needed to be a doctor because my handwriting sucks, and admittedly it does!


some professors will not allow you to use computers in class, so you might have to take handwritten notes. I have not heard of any professors requiring handwritten exams, as that would most likely be a horrible experience for the professor who has to read all of them.


I think some states still require you to handwrite the bar exam, so there's a couple of professors that I know of that make you handwrite you exams - as practice for the bar.

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Re: Law school difficulty

Postby hichvichwoh » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:59 am

cinephile wrote:
hichvichwoh wrote:
PatriotP74 wrote:How much actual on paper writing has everyone had to do? I've always heard the joke i needed to be a doctor because my handwriting sucks, and admittedly it does!


some professors will not allow you to use computers in class, so you might have to take handwritten notes. I have not heard of any professors requiring handwritten exams, as that would most likely be a horrible experience for the professor who has to read all of them.


I think some states still require you to handwrite the bar exam, so there's a couple of professors that I know of that make you handwrite you exams - as practice for the bar.


do those states also require those funny wigs in the courtroom?

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kalvano
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Re: Law school difficulty

Postby kalvano » Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:35 pm

Texas requires one portion be handwritten, but it's a small portion.

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Re: Law school difficulty

Postby scifiguy » Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:18 pm

Someone said earlier in thread that their prof. found A finals easy to distinguish from the rest, but found the differences between B/B- ...C+/C, etc. more arbitrary.

Would anyone possibly have a copy of what an A versus B+ or C+ versus C final would look like?

Curious about the quality difference being talked about.




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