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A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
arklaw13
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Postby arklaw13 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:16 pm

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Last edited by arklaw13 on Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DportIA
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Re: Summer pay at midlaw/sh*tlaw?

Postby DportIA » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:20 pm

Check yo' self.

ITE, $80k at a 80-100 atty firm is by no means sh*tlaw.

arklaw13
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Re: Summer pay at midlaw/sh*tlaw?

Postby arklaw13 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:01 pm

DportIA wrote:Check yo' self.

ITE, $80k at a 80-100 atty firm is by no means sh*tlaw.


I don't think it is, but generally TLS tends to look down upon smaller firms. So I'm preemptively referring to it as some TLS'ers invariably will.

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bk1
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Re: Summer pay at midlaw/sh*tlaw?

Postby bk1 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:06 pm

Pay can be all over the map for smaller and midsized firms. Sometimes they pay prorated 1st year salaries. Sometimes they pay $10/hour. Sometimes they pay $25/hour. It's not possible to give a blanket statement that applies to all of them. Maybe there is a general trend for midsized firms, but if there is I don't know it (for small firms I would suspect that $10-20/hour is the norm).

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stewie27
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Re: Summer pay at midlaw/sh*tlaw?

Postby stewie27 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:11 pm

Dylanlj13 wrote:I have been trying to find out information about the average summer pay for smaller firms (between 80-100 attorneys), but I've had no luck. Has anyone summered at firms of this size? Any idea what sort of salary schedule they go by? Say starting associate salary was around $80k or so (market rate for the area I'm concerned with). I doubt firms of this size follow the model that biglaw does, paying summers around what they would make as an associate, which would be around $1500/wk. The firms I'm looking at hire 1L's, which is what I'm mostly concerned with. Thanks.

Also, these firms don't actually call summers "associates." They just refer to them as full-time law clerks. Does that make a difference?

I'm an SA this summer at a firm you describe (80-100 attorneys, starting associate salary is about $80k). I get $1500/week- about what I'd make as an associate. The firm doesn't hire 1Ls. A similar firm in the same market that hires both 1 and 2Ls pays slightly less- maybe $1200 or so, and I think I remember someone telling me that the 1Ls didn't make as much as 2Ls.
But I agree with bk that this is probably really firm (and maybe market) specific.

arklaw13
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Re: Summer pay at midlaw/sh*tlaw?

Postby arklaw13 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:16 pm

stewie27 wrote:
Dylanlj13 wrote:I have been trying to find out information about the average summer pay for smaller firms (between 80-100 attorneys), but I've had no luck. Has anyone summered at firms of this size? Any idea what sort of salary schedule they go by? Say starting associate salary was around $80k or so (market rate for the area I'm concerned with). I doubt firms of this size follow the model that biglaw does, paying summers around what they would make as an associate, which would be around $1500/wk. The firms I'm looking at hire 1L's, which is what I'm mostly concerned with. Thanks.

Also, these firms don't actually call summers "associates." They just refer to them as full-time law clerks. Does that make a difference?

I'm an SA this summer at a firm you describe (80-100 attorneys, starting associate salary is about $80k). I get $1500/week- about what I'd make as an associate. The firm doesn't hire 1Ls. A similar firm in the same market that hires both 1 and 2Ls pays slightly less- maybe $1200 or so, and I think I remember someone telling me that the 1Ls didn't make as much as 2Ls.
But I agree with bk that this is probably really firm (and maybe market) specific.


Very useful info. Thanks! What are the expected hours at the firm you're at? Are summers generally 9-5 or do you work later some days? I guess this depends on the general hours the attorneys work.

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sundevil77
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Re: Summer pay at midlaw/sh*tlaw?

Postby sundevil77 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:24 pm

Dylanlj13 wrote:
stewie27 wrote:
Dylanlj13 wrote:I have been trying to find out information about the average summer pay for smaller firms (between 80-100 attorneys), but I've had no luck. Has anyone summered at firms of this size? Any idea what sort of salary schedule they go by? Say starting associate salary was around $80k or so (market rate for the area I'm concerned with). I doubt firms of this size follow the model that biglaw does, paying summers around what they would make as an associate, which would be around $1500/wk. The firms I'm looking at hire 1L's, which is what I'm mostly concerned with. Thanks.

Also, these firms don't actually call summers "associates." They just refer to them as full-time law clerks. Does that make a difference?

I'm an SA this summer at a firm you describe (80-100 attorneys, starting associate salary is about $80k). I get $1500/week- about what I'd make as an associate. The firm doesn't hire 1Ls. A similar firm in the same market that hires both 1 and 2Ls pays slightly less- maybe $1200 or so, and I think I remember someone telling me that the 1Ls didn't make as much as 2Ls.
But I agree with bk that this is probably really firm (and maybe market) specific.


Very useful info. Thanks! What are the expected hours at the firm you're at? Are summers generally 9-5 or do you work later some days? I guess this depends on the general hours the attorneys work.


Summers generally do 9-5, but possibly a little more than that. I want to say I generally did 8:30-5:30, but that's primarily because we had at least a 1-hour lunch everyday on the firm.

Also, I second the midsize-firm pay varying greatly. For example, I know someone at a 50-person firm making market ($2000/week for summers), and I know another person at an 80-person firm making what you're making. There's no one size fits all.

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stewie27
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Re: Summer pay at midlaw/sh*tlaw?

Postby stewie27 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:31 pm

Dylanlj13 wrote:Very useful info. Thanks! What are the expected hours at the firm you're at? Are summers generally 9-5 or do you work later some days? I guess this depends on the general hours the attorneys work.

We generally do 8:30-5 or 5:30. I think a summer stayed late (until 8 or so) once, but I doubt it was necessary. The partners who head the summer program were very clear that 8:30-5 were the hours and they didn't expect us to go over that. I met with some SAs at a similar firm in the same city and it sounded like their hours were similar, maybe 9-6. I have a hunch that, like pay, this is firm specific. It probably really depends on which market/city you're in too.
It seems like attorneys work a little later than us, I'm guessing 6 or 7, but a lot of them also get in later than us.

arklaw13
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Re: Summer pay at midlaw/sh*tlaw?

Postby arklaw13 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:00 pm

stewie27 wrote:
Dylanlj13 wrote:Very useful info. Thanks! What are the expected hours at the firm you're at? Are summers generally 9-5 or do you work later some days? I guess this depends on the general hours the attorneys work.

We generally do 8:30-5 or 5:30. I think a summer stayed late (until 8 or so) once, but I doubt it was necessary. The partners who head the summer program were very clear that 8:30-5 were the hours and they didn't expect us to go over that. I met with some SAs at a similar firm in the same city and it sounded like their hours were similar, maybe 9-6. I have a hunch that, like pay, this is firm specific. It probably really depends on which market/city you're in too.
It seems like attorneys work a little later than us, I'm guessing 6 or 7, but a lot of them also get in later than us.


Any idea what the expected billables are for associates at your firm?

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stewie27
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Re: Summer pay at midlaw/sh*tlaw?

Postby stewie27 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:43 pm

Current associates say the billable hour goal is 1800, but stressed that was pretty "aspirational" and that people don't usually hit that and it doesn't seem to be a big deal. I'm not sure what associates end up billing or if there is a lower limit where it would be a big deal though.

arklaw13
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Re: Summer pay at midlaw/sh*tlaw?

Postby arklaw13 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:07 pm

stewie27 wrote:Current associates say the billable hour goal is 1800, but stressed that was pretty "aspirational" and that people don't usually hit that and it doesn't seem to be a big deal. I'm not sure what associates end up billing or if there is a lower limit where it would be a big deal though.


Why is 1800 aspirational? Is it because the amount of work coming in isn't enough to hit that mark or just because the culture is more leisurely? Granted, 1800 would be a lot when the pay is only $80k.

edit: is 1800 just for bonuses? Or is there a bonus structure at your firm? I'm totally clueless on how this works with smaller firms. There is a ton of information out there on biglaw firms, but little on smaller ones.

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ColtsFan88
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Re: Summer pay at midlaw/sh*tlaw?

Postby ColtsFan88 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:06 am

The "biglaw" in Indianapolis (so really regional midlaw) is $100-110k salary, somewhere around $1900/week for summers.

And anyone calling it shitlaw should probably punch themselves in the face.

edit: billables are 1800-1900 hours it seems.

FSCU25
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Re: Summer pay at midlaw/sh*tlaw?

Postby FSCU25 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:22 am

Making $1,500/week at a firm with less than 20 attorneys in a secondary market, however, to echo everyone else, it's very firm specific. The firm does not hire 1L summers.

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stewie27
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Re: Summer pay at midlaw/sh*tlaw?

Postby stewie27 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:11 pm

Dylanlj13 wrote:
stewie27 wrote:Current associates say the billable hour goal is 1800, but stressed that was pretty "aspirational" and that people don't usually hit that and it doesn't seem to be a big deal. I'm not sure what associates end up billing or if there is a lower limit where it would be a big deal though.


Why is 1800 aspirational? Is it because the amount of work coming in isn't enough to hit that mark or just because the culture is more leisurely? Granted, 1800 would be a lot when the pay is only $80k.

edit: is 1800 just for bonuses? Or is there a bonus structure at your firm? I'm totally clueless on how this works with smaller firms. There is a ton of information out there on biglaw firms, but little on smaller ones.

I've heard that people were busier and billed more pre-ITE, but I also think a big part of it is culture. Attorneys really do seem to have full lives outside of work. I've seen both partners and associates (of both sexes) leave around 4 some days to pick up their kids/go to recitals, do other hobby things, etc. I'm not sure how bonuses work, but I do know that at least some associates got a bonus (I'm guessing a few thousand) when they were "no where near 1800".




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