how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.

What percentage of the incoming 1L class came in previously financially independent?

0-25%
7
25%
25%-50%
10
36%
50%-75%
7
25%
75%-100%
4
14%
 
Total votes: 28

Wearthewildthingsr
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how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby Wearthewildthingsr » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:54 am

Let's be honest here.

I'm one of those kids TLS hates. mommy and daddy has sheltered me from market forces in college and since I graduated. Call me what you want. Dumb, callow, unmotivated, etc. etc.

Now I'm led to believe that many people here and coming into law school will be these amazingly accomplished people who have had years of work experience and financial independence and thus maturity. I just want to know, out of curiosity, what portion of the incoming class of 1Ls are truly financially independent from familial support. Just curious.

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Ludo!
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby Ludo! » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:01 am

Your parents paid your bills while you were in college?

Wearthewildthingsr
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby Wearthewildthingsr » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:03 am

Ludovico Technique wrote:Your parents paid your bills while you were in college?


yup. go ahead. excoriate me. I am nothing more than a sponge in the eyes of tls. no... probably less actually.

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Ludo!
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby Ludo! » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:04 am

Nah that's cool. I'm jelly

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bizzybone1313
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby bizzybone1313 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:04 am

I will never understand why people here put years of WE as being a good thing. Working before returning to law school was the biggest mistake I have ever made.

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Ludo!
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby Ludo! » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:06 am

bizzybone1313 wrote:I will never understand why people here put years of WE as being a good thing. Working before returning to law school was the biggest mistake I have ever made.


Why?

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Tom Joad
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby Tom Joad » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:14 am

Wearthewildthingsr wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:Your parents paid your bills while you were in college?


yup. go ahead. excoriate me. I am nothing more than a sponge in the eyes of tls. no... probably less actually.

How did you finance your vices? Did you just straight up ask your parents for beer money or are you a girl?

Wearthewildthingsr
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby Wearthewildthingsr » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:25 am

Tom Joad wrote:
Wearthewildthingsr wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:Your parents paid your bills while you were in college?


yup. go ahead. excoriate me. I am nothing more than a sponge in the eyes of tls. no... probably less actually.

How did you finance your vices? Did you just straight up ask your parents for beer money or are you a girl?


haha even worse. allowance money. yes, I'm a twelve year old in a twenty something body. ok you know what, I lied a little bit. I did have work study job but honestly it never paid me enough for those vices. so yeah. also credit card debt.

I have the sneaking suspicion that I'm gonna go into law school being the least exposed to the "real" world. anyways, I pride myself on at least being honest with myself and trying to "grow up", whatever that means. it's a petty pride but I feel like I might be in the minority when it comes to being totally self aware to how pathetic, yes I agree with you tls consensus, that I am. hopefully it'll change upon graduation. in before someone tells me I shouldn't go to law school, go grow up op, get a job and see what it's like, etc. etc. :P

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:31 am

At least you're owning up. I know dudes who leech of their parents in their late 20s/early 30s and don't understand why they're pathetic shitbags.

ETA: I don't think someone who worked for a few years is inherently better than a K-JD. The quality of that WE matters a lot. So you're fine. Weaning off the milky teat's gonna probably be weird for you though.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby bizzybone1313 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:40 am

Ludovico Technique wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:I will never understand why people here put years of WE as being a good thing. Working before returning to law school was the biggest mistake I have ever made.


Why?


Working a lot of years before returning to law school is a bad idea for a number of reasons.

(1) Assuming one is going to attend a good law school, one will most likely be making less money with only a BA/BS than what could be made with a JD. This money adds up fast. One is wasting money on rent living in a city where one most likely does not plan to settle down. That money adds up quickly too. Instead of putting money towards a house or getting closer to buying a house after law school, one is wasting money on rent in some random city. This has real effects on one's ability to retire at a young age.

(2) Juggling the LSAT with a full time job is something that I found impossible and I strongly discourage future readers of this thread from doing. If you absolutely must work for a while before returning to law school, study for the LSAT full time and get it out of the way first and then go work.

(3) It delays one's entry into the career that one actually wants to do. Working in a job that does not align with one's goals in life is a really miserable experience. I was making $60K doing management consulting, but I quit to study for the LSAT, because I knew I was just wasting time not doing what I really wanted to do with my life. My goal is to practice immigration, plaintiff side employment or civil rights law. This has been my goal since my sophomore year in college and I strayed away from this goal by working in a job that was not remotely close to this.

(4) After about a year of solid WE, getting additional years of work experience probably doesn't give a significant bump at OCI. Maybe it does-- but I have read a lot into this and it seems that law firms care a whole lot more about legal experience rather than some random WE. I can imagine this actually being the case. Most companies are looking for someone that fits exactly what they are looking for and do not stray too much from certain skills.

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Clearly
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby Clearly » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:52 am

No arguments here after clarification. We just made the jump from "Working before law school" to "Working a lot of years before law school"...

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bizzybone1313
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby bizzybone1313 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:55 am

Clearlynotstefan wrote:No arguments here after clarification. We just made the jump from "Working before law school" to "Working a lot of years before law school"...


I do, in fact, think there is a distinction between the two. Great catch BTW. I feel like this is something that could be turned into a LSAT question. Those two do not mean the same thing. If I had only worked a year before returning to law school, I wouldn't feel like I just wasted a bunch of time and I would have had some $$ to live on during law skool. But by working 3-4 years, I always feel like I just wasted a bunch of time working a job that wasn't getting me any closer to what I have always wanted to do. Any rebuttals?

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bizzybone1313
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby bizzybone1313 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:02 am

OP, can you please capitalize the H on the thread title? It is bothering me. Thx.

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sinfiery
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby sinfiery » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:24 am

Parents bought me a 3k car and gave me 3k for a graduation gift + 4 months free rent

So 5 years independent if you don't count that

I feel like anyone who paid(loans) their own way for UG would be in this position tho

Tom Joad wrote:How did you finance your vices? Did you just straight up ask your parents for beer money or are you a girl?

Nothing like studying for finals while giving plasma

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guano
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby guano » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:55 am

Ludovico Technique wrote:Nah that's cool. I'm jelly

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untar614
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby untar614 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:20 am

Eh, my parents have been letting me use a car they bought (which I will soon have to give back as my younger brother needs it now) and helped me some during college, but since graduation a few years ago, I've taken care of all my expenses and student loan payments. Since I haven't had to make any car payments and, being under 26, still use their health insurance (ok, I still get the benefit of a lower cell phone rate by staying on their family plan and paying my share too), I can't claim complete independence, but I think I'm doing a decent job of taking care of myself. Yeah, it'd be nice if I could work less and have more free time and not worry about money, but few decent, worthwhile jobs allow 20-30 hrs/week as an option, and I wouldn't wanna just be living off my parents' money. I do know, though, if I ever found myself unemployed and unable to find new work, moving back in with them was always an option, albeit one I'd try to avoid.

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jingosaur
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby jingosaur » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:17 am

bizzybone1313 wrote:(1) Assuming one is going to attend a good law school, one will most likely be making less money with only a BA/BS than what could be made with a JD. This money adds up fast. One is wasting money on rent living in a city where one most likely does not plan to settle down. That money adds up quickly too. Instead of putting money towards a house or getting closer to buying a house after law school, one is wasting money on rent in some random city. This has real effects on one's ability to retire at a young age.

(2) Juggling the LSAT with a full time job is something that I found impossible and I strongly discourage future readers of this thread from doing. If you absolutely must work for a while before returning to law school, study for the LSAT full time and get it out of the way first and then go work.

(3) It delays one's entry into the career that one actually wants to do. Working in a job that does not align with one's goals in life is a really miserable experience. I was making $60K doing management consulting, but I quit to study for the LSAT, because I knew I was just wasting time not doing what I really wanted to do with my life. My goal is to practice immigration, plaintiff side employment or civil rights law. This has been my goal since my sophomore year in college and I strayed away from this goal by working in a job that was not remotely close to this.

(4) After about a year of solid WE, getting additional years of work experience probably doesn't give a significant bump at OCI. Maybe it does-- but I have read a lot into this and it seems that law firms care a whole lot more about legal experience rather than some random WE. I can imagine this actually being the case. Most companies are looking for someone that fits exactly what they are looking for and do not stray too much from certain skills.

Here's your rebuttal. I technically work in Management Consulting (my company subcontracted me to a bank) and I disagree a lot with your 4 points.

1) This is the one that I disagree with the least. However, a lot of people need work experience to pay off undergrad debt. I'm going to go into grad school with no UG debt after graduating with about $55k worth. The time is also valuable for a lot of people who aren't sure of what they want to do. I feel like the biggest reason why people mistakenly go to law school is because they haven't had any exposure to the real world and know nothing about what they actually want to do long term. In many cases, it's worth the investment of losing out on a couple years of post-JD earnings to figure out what you really want to do. Also, only 21% of law school grads get jobs that pay 60K, so after undergrad, you were actually better off than the majority of law school grads.

2) I don't think studying for the LSAT with a full time job is impossible. Throughout my life, I haven't been a very good standardized test taker (2060 SAT with a 610 on Verbal) and I was able to get a very disappointing 170 on the LSAT (was PTing around 175) and a 780 on the GMAT while working. It just requires a lot of discipline. If you can't handle a 50 hour a week job and a 100 question multiple choice test at the same time, how do you expect to handle 1L or an 80 hour a week BigLaw job while having a wife and kids one day?

3) Most entry level professional work requires the same skills. Investment banking analysts, management consultants, and BigLaw associates all need the same "office worker" skill set to be successful. With the market for lawyers being so bad, I think having experience in an office job before being a BigLaw SA can be the difference between getting no-offered and getting a full-time offer. In a world where people get no-offered because they forgot to CC someone in an e-mail once, pretty much any office work experience is very valuable. Also, working at a larger company can expose people to problems that they could gear their education towards. In college, I didn’t even know about the industry that I’m working in and now I’m going to go to grad school to learn how to improve my industry.

4) I'm a 0L so I can't speak to what law firms want, but what I can say is that one year of work experience really isn’t enough for you to make your judgments. Most firms won’t let people make any kind of a decision until about two years in. MBA programs typically prefer 3 or 4 years of work experience. If you can get promoted in that time, that’s even more valuable. Saying “I worked at a Big 4” doesn’t say much because tons of people do that and many don’t succeed in a corporate workplace. You’re basically showing that you can interview well. Saying “I was promoted at a Big 4” shows that you can survive a corporate environment and excel at what you do. That’s what’s actually valuable.

rad lulz
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby rad lulz » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:25 am

goldbh7 wrote:In a world where people get no-offered because they forgot to CC someone in an e-mail once

People get no offered for a lot of stupid shit, but not this

rad lulz
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby rad lulz » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:26 am

.
Last edited by rad lulz on Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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AreJay711
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby AreJay711 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:29 am

You know what is worse than people whose parents pay for everything? The people who are bitter that their parents didn't and get pissy at people whose parents did / still do. My ex was that way. I was financially independent in undergrad (well except for Uncle Sam and dem loans) but, while I would have liked some free money thrown my way, I just don't get the envy.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:50 am

I pretty much agree with goldbh7's rebuttal. I think not taking time off works for some people, but I think the biggest issue is that too many people go to law school without really thinking about it, as a default because they don't know what else to do. Getting WE helps people figure out if law is what they really want to do, and some people will find once they're out in the work force they don't really need to go to law school after all. Even the ones who do decide to go to law school will benefit from learning what the work world is like (I think one of the reasons some people have such a hard time with biglaw is that they have to figure out the work world AND biglaw at the same time. That, and biglaw sucks, but that's a separate thing). So to me, that's the most important reason why people should take time off.

I also don't remotely see 3-4 years as a waste or putting anyone behind or anything like that, but then, I went to law school so many years after UG that I'm not even going to say, so it's a different perspective. It's just that to me one year is so short, it doesn't even quite count in my head as time off (I mean, it is; people can learn a lot in one year, but it seems more like a "gap year" to me).

apollo2015
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby apollo2015 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:46 pm

The vast majority of the people who I've met in law school are not financially independent. Some will claim that they are "independent", but if you drill deeper they almost always admit that their parents pay for "boring stuff" like their utilities, while also tossing them thousands of dollars under the table.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:11 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:Working a lot of years before returning to law school is a bad idea for a number of reasons.

(1) Assuming one is going to attend a good law school, one will most likely be making less money with only a BA/BS than what could be made with a JD. This money adds up fast. One is wasting money on rent living in a city where one most likely does not plan to settle down. That money adds up quickly too. Instead of putting money towards a house or getting closer to buying a house after law school, one is wasting money on rent in some random city. This has real effects on one's ability to retire at a young age.

(2) Juggling the LSAT with a full time job is something that I found impossible and I strongly discourage future readers of this thread from doing. If you absolutely must work for a while before returning to law school, study for the LSAT full time and get it out of the way first and then go work.

(3) It delays one's entry into the career that one actually wants to do. Working in a job that does not align with one's goals in life is a really miserable experience. I was making $60K doing management consulting, but I quit to study for the LSAT, because I knew I was just wasting time not doing what I really wanted to do with my life. My goal is to practice immigration, plaintiff side employment or civil rights law. This has been my goal since my sophomore year in college and I strayed away from this goal by working in a job that was not remotely close to this.

(4) After about a year of solid WE, getting additional years of work experience probably doesn't give a significant bump at OCI. Maybe it does-- but I have read a lot into this and it seems that law firms care a whole lot more about legal experience rather than some random WE. I can imagine this actually being the case. Most companies are looking for someone that fits exactly what they are looking for and do not stray too much from certain skills.

I disagree with everything you just said.

(1) Maybe (maybe) you'll make less money with a bachelors than a JD but you are also much less likely to have huge loan payments. On balance, you have more financial flexibility before law school than after. I also don't understand why you would assume you'd be somewhere you don't want to live before law school but not afterward, when you have a whole lot more geographic flexibility. And, more to the point, I think it's a weird attitude to have that you're somehow just wasting your time working before law school, as if once you get that law job, then life truly begins! Working after college can actually be a great period of your life. You probably don't have many more responsibilities than you did in college, you've got a bit of disposable income, you're living on your own, you don't have to study on the weekends... don't know why you'd want to rush through that to go to law school.

(2) This is just a personal issue, I guess, but I had plenty of time to study for the LSAT while working.

(3) Again, personal issue, but more to the point, I don't think most people know what it is they want to do professionally until they have actually worked for a while. They may very well still not know after having a job. Those people should keep working, and emphatically should not go to law school.

(4) I think this is just factually incorrect.

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kay2016
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby kay2016 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:39 pm

K-JD here.

I worked at least one part time job every year starting halfway through my sophomore year..

My dad paid for my rent, but all my utilities, groceries, gas, alcohol, clothes, etc was all on me. My car died end of Junior year, my dad helped me with a downpayment but I've been responsible for all the payments since.

Since I graduated in May though, he has stopped paying my rent. So going forward I will be 100% financially independent other than occasional gifts from grand parents or something similar.

I always appreciated my dad paying for my rent.. but I hate asking for money now... I think it's great when parents can help out for longer, but I just don't expect it anymore and feel really guilty asking. Even this summer as I struggled to find a job for just the summer before I move
Last edited by kay2016 on Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: how many incoming 1Ls are leaving the nest?

Postby bizzybone1313 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:44 pm

I would sell stuff on Ebay to get closer to reaching your goal of financial independence. You would be amazed at what people will pay for your stuff. I just recently have started selling stuff, but I have made $500+ so far. Just start walking around your house and start selling stuff you don't use.




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