Recent Boalt Grad (2012), taking ?s

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LegalReality
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Recent Boalt Grad (2012), taking ?s

Postby LegalReality » Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:12 pm

I know this board was a huge resource to me through undergrad but there seems to be a dearth of practicing attorneys. Will not answer any info that is in any way outable so I can be frank in my opinions.

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iMisto
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Re: Recent Boalt Grad (2012), taking ?s

Postby iMisto » Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:46 pm

I'll be attending Berkeley this coming semester. What are the job prospects like (I'm sure it was brutal for c/o 2012..). Chances of landing a job in SF? NYC?

Did you enjoy Berkeley?

Thanks for taking questions!

Pure Protein
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Re: Recent Boalt Grad (2012), taking ?s

Postby Pure Protein » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:25 pm

.
Last edited by Pure Protein on Mon May 11, 2015 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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pupshaw
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Re: Recent Boalt Grad (2012), taking ?s

Postby pupshaw » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:11 pm

What kind of work are you doing now?

LegalReality
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Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:08 pm

Re: Recent Boalt Grad (2012), taking ?s

Postby LegalReality » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:16 am

iMisto wrote:I'll be attending Berkeley this coming semester. What are the job prospects like (I'm sure it was brutal for c/o 2012..). Chances of landing a job in SF? NYC?

Did you enjoy Berkeley?

Thanks for taking questions!


I really enjoyed Berkeley, loved the people and the area. For law school, I do not think the experience could be better?

Job prospects: I think perhaps being more specific on your inquiry would be helpful for me to provide better info. In general, most of my friends got biglaw at some point. SF is incredibly competitive. Most firms stash all their associates in boring and cheaper Palo Alto while their partners take the SF offices. From my experience much better chance of landing a job in SV than SF, the distinction is quite important.

Boalties used to self select out of NYC but that is changing ITE. There are good chances if you want to go that route.

I would say overall the Boalt job picture is stronger than the buzz on TLS, however, the picture for those who didn't get biglaw is absolutely brutal. About 20% of the class is doing minimum wage shitlaw type gigs or gov work (also for around minimum wage or for free). As a law grad, I can confirm there really is no middle, you either get 160k biglaw or a job which pays around the same as a waitress gig.

I'd caution the attitude with saying the class of 2012 must have been brutal. It seems to imply that you think the job picture is getting better for the legal field. I can tell you that is not the case. In 2012 and 2013 firms were hiring as if biglaw was coming back with the improved economy. Despite clients being more successful, the demand for high end legal services and client tolerance for paying for 1st years continues to decrease rapidly. We are already seeing a massive amount of layoffs at top firms, and frankly I would expect the next two OCIs to be worse, rather than better than 2012. While I could expand on this topic, the biglaw model is broken and this industry is eating itself alive, and people should not think that an improved economy will mean more job opportunities.

Pure Protein wrote:In your experience, did you find the HH, H, P, PC, NC grading system to equate to something like A, A-, B+ etc.?


This was a great idea back in 2006 when biglaw demand required that 100% of class would get jobs. Now, it is a real detriment. A "median" student at a peer school would have a solid shot in OCI. A student with median grades at Boalt can be the worst student in the entire class. It is possible for you to say finish in the 55th percentile in every class and still be in the bottom 10% of Boalt. Firms understand the grading system and just come up with creative ways to calculate grades off of it. If you have all Ps at Boalt, you probably are not getting biglaw. It also creates bad incentives at the bottom. A minority of people literally dont do anything but read an outline the night before their exam and take the same P that other people work their asses off for.

cerealdan wrote:What kind of work are you doing now?


Corporate first year.

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iMisto
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Re: Recent Boalt Grad (2012), taking ?s

Postby iMisto » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:08 am

Is IP necessary for SV?? I'd like to stay in CA (-LA), but I'd take NYC. Also, did it appear getting NYC was relatively easy for Berkeley grads? I heard NYC doesn't get many, so they like to stock up.

Again, thank you!

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jbagelboy
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Re: Recent Boalt Grad (2012), taking ?s

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:22 pm

LegalReality wrote:
iMisto wrote:I'll be attending Berkeley this coming semester. What are the job prospects like (I'm sure it was brutal for c/o 2012..). Chances of landing a job in SF? NYC?

Did you enjoy Berkeley?

Thanks for taking questions!


I really enjoyed Berkeley, loved the people and the area. For law school, I do not think the experience could be better?

Job prospects: I think perhaps being more specific on your inquiry would be helpful for me to provide better info. In general, most of my friends got biglaw at some point. SF is incredibly competitive. Most firms stash all their associates in boring and cheaper Palo Alto while their partners take the SF offices. From my experience much better chance of landing a job in SV than SF, the distinction is quite important.

Boalties used to self select out of NYC but that is changing ITE. There are good chances if you want to go that route.

I would say overall the Boalt job picture is stronger than the buzz on TLS, however, the picture for those who didn't get biglaw is absolutely brutal. About 20% of the class is doing minimum wage shitlaw type gigs or gov work (also for around minimum wage or for free). As a law grad, I can confirm there really is no middle, you either get 160k biglaw or a job which pays around the same as a waitress gig.

I'd caution the attitude with saying the class of 2012 must have been brutal. It seems to imply that you think the job picture is getting better for the legal field. I can tell you that is not the case. In 2012 and 2013 firms were hiring as if biglaw was coming back with the improved economy. Despite clients being more successful, the demand for high end legal services and client tolerance for paying for 1st years continues to decrease rapidly. We are already seeing a massive amount of layoffs at top firms, and frankly I would expect the next two OCIs to be worse, rather than better than 2012. While I could expand on this topic, the biglaw model is broken and this industry is eating itself alive, and people should not think that an improved economy will mean more job opportunities.

Pure Protein wrote:In your experience, did you find the HH, H, P, PC, NC grading system to equate to something like A, A-, B+ etc.?


This was a great idea back in 2006 when biglaw demand required that 100% of class would get jobs. Now, it is a real detriment. A "median" student at a peer school would have a solid shot in OCI. A student with median grades at Boalt can be the worst student in the entire class. It is possible for you to say finish in the 55th percentile in every class and still be in the bottom 10% of Boalt. Firms understand the grading system and just come up with creative ways to calculate grades off of it. If you have all Ps at Boalt, you probably are not getting biglaw. It also creates bad incentives at the bottom. A minority of people literally dont do anything but read an outline the night before their exam and take the same P that other people work their asses off for.

cerealdan wrote:What kind of work are you doing now?


Corporate first year.


Thank you for the info!

It sounds like the problems you describe are more endemic to the market than specific to Boalt, except perhaps that Boalt doesnt offer hundreds of school funded positions to bail out its weaker grads. I have one question: given that 54% of Boalt grads went into biglaw where they would earn market salary, and you say roughly 20% are SOL, it would appear there is a substantial "middle" ground (~25% of the class) that isnt making six figures but has a respectable legal job (clerkships, academic fellowships, selfselected PI) -- do you stand by the "all or nothing" model when a quarter of the class doesnt qualify? Just picking your brain and how your postgrad perspective compares to the TLS hivemind.

LegalReality
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:08 pm

Re: Recent Boalt Grad (2012), taking ?s

Postby LegalReality » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:28 pm

iMisto wrote:Is IP necessary for SV?? I'd like to stay in CA (-LA), but I'd take NYC. Also, did it appear getting NYC was relatively easy for Berkeley grads? I heard NYC doesn't get many, so they like to stock up.

Again, thank you!


I'm not sure how easy Ny is though it seemed to be slightly more lenient than ca. Frankly a lot of ny firms do not recruit simply because boalt people rarely go out there. A lot of people in my class who find themselves in dire situations were not geographically flexible. It's pretty amazing how many people just flat put refused to leave ca even if it meant no job. I wouldn't characterize NYC firms as that different frankly.


jbagelboy wrote:
LegalReality wrote:
iMisto wrote:I'll be attending Berkeley this coming semester. What are the job prospects like (I'm sure it was brutal for c/o 2012..). Chances of landing a job in SF? NYC?

Did you enjoy Berkeley?

Thanks for taking questions!


I really enjoyed Berkeley, loved the people and the area. For law school, I do not think the experience could be better?

Job prospects: I think perhaps being more specific on your inquiry would be helpful for me to provide better info. In general, most of my friends got biglaw at some point. SF is incredibly competitive. Most firms stash all their associates in boring and cheaper Palo Alto while their partners take the SF offices. From my experience much better chance of landing a job in SV than SF, the distinction is quite important.

Boalties used to self select out of NYC but that is changing ITE. There are good chances if you want to go that route.

I would say overall the Boalt job picture is stronger than the buzz on TLS, however, the picture for those who didn't get biglaw is absolutely brutal. About 20% of the class is doing minimum wage shitlaw type gigs or gov work (also for around minimum wage or for free). As a law grad, I can confirm there really is no middle, you either get 160k biglaw or a job which pays around the same as a waitress gig.

I'd caution the attitude with saying the class of 2012 must have been brutal. It seems to imply that you think the job picture is getting better for the legal field. I can tell you that is not the case. In 2012 and 2013 firms were hiring as if biglaw was coming back with the improved economy. Despite clients being more successful, the demand for high end legal services and client tolerance for paying for 1st years continues to decrease rapidly. We are already seeing a massive amount of layoffs at top firms, and frankly I would expect the next two OCIs to be worse, rather than better than 2012. While I could expand on this topic, the biglaw model is broken and this industry is eating itself alive, and people should not think that an improved economy will mean more job opportunities.

Pure Protein wrote:In your experience, did you find the HH, H, P, PC, NC grading system to equate to something like A, A-, B+ etc.?


This was a great idea back in 2006 when biglaw demand required that 100% of class would get jobs. Now, it is a real detriment. A "median" student at a peer school would have a solid shot in OCI. A student with median grades at Boalt can be the worst student in the entire class. It is possible for you to say finish in the 55th percentile in every class and still be in the bottom 10% of Boalt. Firms understand the grading system and just come up with creative ways to calculate grades off of it. If you have all Ps at Boalt, you probably are not getting biglaw. It also creates bad incentives at the bottom. A minority of people literally dont do anything but read an outline the night before their exam and take the same P that other people work their asses off for.

cerealdan wrote:What kind of work are you doing now?


Corporate first year.


Thank you for the info!

It sounds like the problems you describe are more endemic to the market than specific to Boalt, except perhaps that Boalt doesnt offer hundreds of school funded positions to bail out its weaker grads. I have one question: given that 54% of Boalt grads went into biglaw where they would earn market salary, and you say roughly 20% are SOL, it would appear there is a substantial "middle" ground (~25% of the class) that isnt making six figures but has a respectable legal job (clerkships, academic fellowships, selfselected PI) -- do you stand by the "all or nothing" model when a quarter of the class doesnt qualify? Just picking your brain and how your postgrad perspective compares to the TLS hivemind.


I appreciate your input and admire the amount of research you have done. I didn't make nearly as educated decision on attending boalt and appreciate that prospective students are becoming aware. First of all, a clerkship is not a middle ground. It is an elite option which for the most part is only available to the top of the class. Second the 54% figure does not reflect market. I know people making market at non v100 and non nlj firms. There are a few market opportunities elsewhere.

If you look at Berkeleys survey there is even at the 25th percentile in private practice a salary of market. I can't know about the 54% number but feel it must be higher. Almost all my friends have market paying gigs. The reason I am so dubious of this middle is because I've never seen or heard of it, every person I know makes 145, 160 or peanuts. It's possible somebody works at a firm making 100k but ill submit to you that if that market position exists I never found or heard of it.

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jbagelboy
Posts: 9646
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Re: Recent Boalt Grad (2012), taking ?s

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:01 pm

LegalReality wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
LegalReality wrote:
iMisto wrote:I'll be attending Berkeley this coming semester. What are the job prospects like (I'm sure it was brutal for c/o 2012..). Chances of landing a job in SF? NYC?

Did you enjoy Berkeley?

Thanks for taking questions!


I really enjoyed Berkeley, loved the people and the area. For law school, I do not think the experience could be better?

Job prospects: I think perhaps being more specific on your inquiry would be helpful for me to provide better info. In general, most of my friends got biglaw at some point. SF is incredibly competitive. Most firms stash all their associates in boring and cheaper Palo Alto while their partners take the SF offices. From my experience much better chance of landing a job in SV than SF, the distinction is quite important.

Boalties used to self select out of NYC but that is changing ITE. There are good chances if you want to go that route.

I would say overall the Boalt job picture is stronger than the buzz on TLS, however, the picture for those who didn't get biglaw is absolutely brutal. About 20% of the class is doing minimum wage shitlaw type gigs or gov work (also for around minimum wage or for free). As a law grad, I can confirm there really is no middle, you either get 160k biglaw or a job which pays around the same as a waitress gig.

I'd caution the attitude with saying the class of 2012 must have been brutal. It seems to imply that you think the job picture is getting better for the legal field. I can tell you that is not the case. In 2012 and 2013 firms were hiring as if biglaw was coming back with the improved economy. Despite clients being more successful, the demand for high end legal services and client tolerance for paying for 1st years continues to decrease rapidly. We are already seeing a massive amount of layoffs at top firms, and frankly I would expect the next two OCIs to be worse, rather than better than 2012. While I could expand on this topic, the biglaw model is broken and this industry is eating itself alive, and people should not think that an improved economy will mean more job opportunities.

Pure Protein wrote:In your experience, did you find the HH, H, P, PC, NC grading system to equate to something like A, A-, B+ etc.?


This was a great idea back in 2006 when biglaw demand required that 100% of class would get jobs. Now, it is a real detriment. A "median" student at a peer school would have a solid shot in OCI. A student with median grades at Boalt can be the worst student in the entire class. It is possible for you to say finish in the 55th percentile in every class and still be in the bottom 10% of Boalt. Firms understand the grading system and just come up with creative ways to calculate grades off of it. If you have all Ps at Boalt, you probably are not getting biglaw. It also creates bad incentives at the bottom. A minority of people literally dont do anything but read an outline the night before their exam and take the same P that other people work their asses off for.

cerealdan wrote:What kind of work are you doing now?


Corporate first year.


Thank you for the info!

It sounds like the problems you describe are more endemic to the market than specific to Boalt, except perhaps that Boalt doesnt offer hundreds of school funded positions to bail out its weaker grads. I have one question: given that 54% of Boalt grads went into biglaw where they would earn market salary, and you say roughly 20% are SOL, it would appear there is a substantial "middle" ground (~25% of the class) that isnt making six figures but has a respectable legal job (clerkships, academic fellowships, selfselected PI) -- do you stand by the "all or nothing" model when a quarter of the class doesnt qualify? Just picking your brain and how your postgrad perspective compares to the TLS hivemind.


I appreciate your input and admire the amount of research you have done. I didn't make nearly as educated decision on attending boalt and appreciate that prospective students are becoming aware. First of all, a clerkship is not a middle ground. It is an elite option which for the most part is only available to the top of the class. Second the 54% figure does not reflect market. I know people making market at non v100 and non nlj firms. There are a few market opportunities elsewhere.

If you look at Berkeleys survey there is even at the 25th percentile in private practice a salary of market. I can't know about the 54% number but feel it must be higher. Almost all my friends have market paying gigs. The reason I am so dubious of this middle is because I've never seen or heard of it, every person I know makes 145, 160 or peanuts. It's possible somebody works at a firm making 100k but ill submit to you that if that market position exists I never found or heard of it.


Interesting. I mentioned clerkships outside the large firm % simply because they tend to pay substantially less but better than "peanuts" (a middle salary ground), but I know they are the more prestigious and difficult option to obtain. Typically the logic we employ is that the large firms and clerkships represent the chance at a market salaried position, i.e, the chances of being able to service the debt load, which for Boalt lands around 60%. In your estimation the figure lands at closer to 80% since the large firm + AIII omits many of the ~150K positions you mention above. These are difficult to quantify so people sometimes ignore them. This is a more optimistic employment outlook (to me at least) than was previously considered. Do you think, in your comparative experience, that the same goes for Boalts peers? Do you not consider those students who choose to work in the public sector and earn far less or go on LRAP to service debt? (Or do they not really exist?).

Thanks again and sorry to bother you




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