Law School Horror Stories?

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dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Law School Horror Stories?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:31 am

Tekrul wrote:Getting CCW in NJ/NYC is like winning the lottery the same day you get struck by lightning and go triple platinum. If the day I look down a criminal barrel about to take my life ever comes around, unfortunately all I'll be able to do is impotently beg for the life of my SO if not for mine while thinking about my h&k p30, usp, and sig P226 sitting neatly cleaned polished unloaded and double locked behind 3 inches of steel with ammunition locked separately. My 25 yard 1.5 inch spread will be for shit.

Meanwhile there are traffic/security cameras out there with footage of me breaking up/averting physical conflict between strangers who had the fortune of engaging with me around instead of a phone camera bystander.

And with NYPD carrying 9-11 lb triggers, I'll take my chances with bad guy missing over taking strays in my direction.

Yea immadbro.

I think you'll manage to survive. Or did I miss all the stories about people being shot in NYC in random muggings?

You're more likely to fall down the stairs and break your skull, so you might be better served wearing a helmet to work every day than worrying about the concealed carry laws.

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Tekrul
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Re: Law School Horror Stories?

Postby Tekrul » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:02 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Tekrul wrote:Getting CCW in NJ/NYC is like winning the lottery the same day you get struck by lightning and go triple platinum. If the day I look down a criminal barrel about to take my life ever comes around, unfortunately all I'll be able to do is impotently beg for the life of my SO if not for mine while thinking about my h&k p30, usp, and sig P226 sitting neatly cleaned polished unloaded and double locked behind 3 inches of steel with ammunition locked separately. My 25 yard 1.5 inch spread will be for shit.

Meanwhile there are traffic/security cameras out there with footage of me breaking up/averting physical conflict between strangers who had the fortune of engaging with me around instead of a phone camera bystander.

And with NYPD carrying 9-11 lb triggers, I'll take my chances with bad guy missing over taking strays in my direction.

Yea immadbro.

I think you'll manage to survive. Or did I miss all the stories about people being shot in NYC in random muggings?

You're more likely to fall down the stairs and break your skull, so you might be better served wearing a helmet to work every day than worrying about the concealed carry laws.


I understand and respect your position, although I don't appreciate your flippant dismissal of my own. There is harm and personal experience that can tie to either side of this issue. My experiences have placed me on the side you find me on through emotional anguish and loss of my own as much as reason and logic. I would like to state that you could put a dutiful citizen like me at any one of those tragedies that the both of us will use to justify our positions (what if he didn't have the gun/what if one victim there was carrying for defense), and I would have put the safety of everyone before the safety of myself - this is not something I say with bravado after not having been in the life-threatening situation to prove it. I've been there, I've proved it. At my level of skill, more times than not, each of those stories would have turned from tragedy into heroic regale of a bad guy brought down before he could harm others. I'd happily turn in my arms for a peaceful, idyllic society - I dream of a future civilization where barbaric things like firearms are brought up in history books and laughed at derisively. But bullies, wackos, and criminals exist. Even police officers are subject to character weaknesses (violence, bias), what right do they have to be armed among the unarmed? NYPD shooting statistics, firing upon minorities with greater frequency, and shooting with poor accuracy, harming innocents confirm a badge and an oath do not a noble man make.

And, yes, it appears you've missed the stories. I was 15 feet from a triple homicide last summer by my UG, I was shut into an apartment in Queens even more recently while a gunman went on a rampage shooting 25 people, and if you're from the tri-state area, you've heard of my friend becoming the victim of gang initiation - boxed in by cars at a red light in Paterson on his commute home after studying late at the library, he was put in the hospital for 3 months eating from a tube, dropped out of medical school, and now struggling with depression/suicide. All of these could be useful for you to insist upon greater control of guns but they are also useful to the opposing camp that a gun in the just hand could have averted disaster. Dutiful citizens with firearms would essentially increase the number of peacekeeping agents one-hundred-fold.

You can take your response to me, I won't follow up to shore up weaknesses or deficiencies you find in this post, able though I am. This is entirely the wrong forum to butt heads about this issue and we should return to the topic of law schools.

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guano
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Re: Law School Horror Stories?

Postby guano » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:17 pm

Tekrul wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Tekrul wrote:Getting CCW in NJ/NYC is like winning the lottery the same day you get struck by lightning and go triple platinum. If the day I look down a criminal barrel about to take my life ever comes around, unfortunately all I'll be able to do is impotently beg for the life of my SO if not for mine while thinking about my h&k p30, usp, and sig P226 sitting neatly cleaned polished unloaded and double locked behind 3 inches of steel with ammunition locked separately. My 25 yard 1.5 inch spread will be for shit.

Meanwhile there are traffic/security cameras out there with footage of me breaking up/averting physical conflict between strangers who had the fortune of engaging with me around instead of a phone camera bystander.

And with NYPD carrying 9-11 lb triggers, I'll take my chances with bad guy missing over taking strays in my direction.

Yea immadbro.

I think you'll manage to survive. Or did I miss all the stories about people being shot in NYC in random muggings?

You're more likely to fall down the stairs and break your skull, so you might be better served wearing a helmet to work every day than worrying about the concealed carry laws.


I understand and respect your position, although I don't appreciate your flippant dismissal of my own. There is harm and personal experience that can tie to either side of this issue. My experiences have placed me on the side you find me on through emotional anguish and loss of my own as much as reason and logic. I would like to state that you could put a dutiful citizen like me at any one of those tragedies that the both of us will use to justify our positions (what if he didn't have the gun/what if one victim there was carrying for defense), and I would have put the safety of everyone before the safety of myself - this is not something I say with bravado after not having been in the life-threatening situation to prove it. I've been there, I've proved it. At my level of skill, more times than not, each of those stories would have turned from tragedy into heroic regale of a bad guy brought down before he could harm others. I'd happily turn in my arms for a peaceful, idyllic society - I dream of a future civilization where barbaric things like firearms are brought up in history books and laughed at derisively. But bullies, wackos, and criminals exist. Even police officers are subject to character weaknesses (violence, bias), what right do they have to be armed among the unarmed? NYPD shooting statistics, firing upon minorities with greater frequency, and shooting with poor accuracy, harming innocents confirm a badge and an oath do not a noble man make.

And, yes, it appears you've missed the stories. I was 15 feet from a triple homicide last summer by my UG, I was shut into an apartment in Queens even more recently while a gunman went on a rampage shooting 25 people, and if you're from the tri-state area, you've heard of my friend becoming the victim of gang initiation - boxed in by cars at a red light in Paterson on his commute home after studying late at the library, he was put in the hospital for 3 months eating from a tube, dropped out of medical school, and now struggling with depression/suicide. All of these could be useful for you to insist upon greater control of guns but they are also useful to the opposing camp that a gun in the just hand could have averted disaster. Dutiful citizens with firearms would essentially increase the number of peacekeeping agents one-hundred-fold.

You can take your response to me, I won't follow up to shore up weaknesses or deficiencies you find in this post, able though I am. This is entirely the wrong forum to butt heads about this issue and we should return to the topic of law schools.

Having lived in places with strict gun control (not referring to NY, because of ease of gunrunning) and having seem research about the effectiveness of CCW, I will respectfully agree to disagree.

JJ123
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Re: Law School Horror Stories?

Postby JJ123 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:44 am

guano wrote:
Tekrul wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Tekrul wrote:Getting CCW in NJ/NYC is like winning the lottery the same day you get struck by lightning and go triple platinum. If the day I look down a criminal barrel about to take my life ever comes around, unfortunately all I'll be able to do is impotently beg for the life of my SO if not for mine while thinking about my h&k p30, usp, and sig P226 sitting neatly cleaned polished unloaded and double locked behind 3 inches of steel with ammunition locked separately. My 25 yard 1.5 inch spread will be for shit.

Meanwhile there are traffic/security cameras out there with footage of me breaking up/averting physical conflict between strangers who had the fortune of engaging with me around instead of a phone camera bystander.

And with NYPD carrying 9-11 lb triggers, I'll take my chances with bad guy missing over taking strays in my direction.

Yea immadbro.

I think you'll manage to survive. Or did I miss all the stories about people being shot in NYC in random muggings?

You're more likely to fall down the stairs and break your skull, so you might be better served wearing a helmet to work every day than worrying about the concealed carry laws.


I understand and respect your position, although I don't appreciate your flippant dismissal of my own. There is harm and personal experience that can tie to either side of this issue. My experiences have placed me on the side you find me on through emotional anguish and loss of my own as much as reason and logic. I would like to state that you could put a dutiful citizen like me at any one of those tragedies that the both of us will use to justify our positions (what if he didn't have the gun/what if one victim there was carrying for defense), and I would have put the safety of everyone before the safety of myself - this is not something I say with bravado after not having been in the life-threatening situation to prove it. I've been there, I've proved it. At my level of skill, more times than not, each of those stories would have turned from tragedy into heroic regale of a bad guy brought down before he could harm others. I'd happily turn in my arms for a peaceful, idyllic society - I dream of a future civilization where barbaric things like firearms are brought up in history books and laughed at derisively. But bullies, wackos, and criminals exist. Even police officers are subject to character weaknesses (violence, bias), what right do they have to be armed among the unarmed? NYPD shooting statistics, firing upon minorities with greater frequency, and shooting with poor accuracy, harming innocents confirm a badge and an oath do not a noble man make.

And, yes, it appears you've missed the stories. I was 15 feet from a triple homicide last summer by my UG, I was shut into an apartment in Queens even more recently while a gunman went on a rampage shooting 25 people, and if you're from the tri-state area, you've heard of my friend becoming the victim of gang initiation - boxed in by cars at a red light in Paterson on his commute home after studying late at the library, he was put in the hospital for 3 months eating from a tube, dropped out of medical school, and now struggling with depression/suicide. All of these could be useful for you to insist upon greater control of guns but they are also useful to the opposing camp that a gun in the just hand could have averted disaster. Dutiful citizens with firearms would essentially increase the number of peacekeeping agents one-hundred-fold.

You can take your response to me, I won't follow up to shore up weaknesses or deficiencies you find in this post, able though I am. This is entirely the wrong forum to butt heads about this issue and we should return to the topic of law schools.

Having lived in places with strict gun control (not referring to NY, because of ease of gunrunning) and having seem research about the effectiveness of CCW, I will respectfully agree to disagree.


You are horribly, ridiculously wrong, and do not have a leg to stand on. The matter is completely settled in research, gun freedom = less crime. CCW = lower crime, removing CCW = more crime. Depending on the poll, over 95% of police officers agree.

There is absolutely no evidence that allowing citizens to carry increases crime, and there is a mountain of evidence that it decreases crime.

There is no room for "respectful disagreement" when your position is morally and intellectually bankrupt. It leads to innocent people being robbed, raped and murdered.

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guano
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Re: Law School Horror Stories?

Postby guano » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:01 pm

JJ123 wrote:You are horribly, ridiculously wrong, and do not have a leg to stand on. The matter is completely settled in research, gun freedom = less crime. CCW = lower crime, removing CCW = more crime. Depending on the poll, over 95% of police officers agree.

There is absolutely no evidence that allowing citizens to carry increases crime, and there is a mountain of evidence that it decreases crime.

There is no room for "respectful disagreement" when your position is morally and intellectually bankrupt. It leads to innocent people being robbed, raped and murdered.

Then how come gun related crime rates are significantly lower in Europe, where gun laws are much stricter?
Also, read this

There's plenty of research on both sides, for various reasons, but I prefer the common sense approach: the average person without training is unlikely to react correctly, and, making it harder to get guns means less criminals with guns

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nickb285
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Re: Law School Horror Stories?

Postby nickb285 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:15 pm

Well, if we're gonna derail a thread, it might as well be a scifiguy thread.

guano wrote:Then how come gun related crime rates are significantly lower in Europe, where gun laws are much stricter?


Because correlation and causation are two different things. Call me when Austria shares a border with one of the most violent countries in the world, has widespread drug/gang related crime, has extremely poor educational and job opportunities in some areas, has a failed mental health care system, etc., etc.

European countries also tend to have fewer stabbings, do guns cause those as well?

guano wrote:Also, read this

There's plenty of research on both sides, for various reasons, but I prefer the common sense approach: the average person without training is unlikely to react correctly, and, making it harder to get guns means less criminals with guns


Then why, with increased gun sales and more and more states switching to a shall-issue system, has the United States seen a massive drop in gun crime, while the gun-control utopia of the UK has seen a massive rise?

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Law School Horror Stories?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:20 pm

JJ123 wrote:You are horribly, ridiculously wrong, and do not have a leg to stand on. The matter is completely settled in research, gun freedom = less crime. CCW = lower crime, removing CCW = more crime. Depending on the poll, over 95% of police officers agree.

There is absolutely no evidence that allowing citizens to carry increases crime, and there is a mountain of evidence that it decreases crime.

There is no room for "respectful disagreement" when your position is morally and intellectually bankrupt. It leads to innocent people being robbed, raped and murdered.

Does "crime" in this context include accidental discharges, bystanders injured in the course of legitimate self-defense, etc.?

PRgradBYU
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Re: Law School Horror Stories?

Postby PRgradBYU » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:41 pm

scifiguy wrote:What are some horror stories you all have witnessed or heard about from law school? And what lessons can be drawn from them to help 0Ls?


Image

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guano
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Re: Law School Horror Stories?

Postby guano » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:58 pm

nickb285 wrote:Then why, with increased gun sales and more and more states switching to a shall-issue system, has the United States seen a massive drop in gun crime

Correlation =/= causation

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nickb285
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Re: Law School Horror Stories?

Postby nickb285 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:07 pm

guano wrote:
nickb285 wrote:Then why, with increased gun sales and more and more states switching to a shall-issue system, has the United States seen a massive drop in gun crime

Correlation =/= causation


First, I never claimed it did, only that increased purchase and carrying of firearms has not led to a proportional increase in gun crime--which it would if your theory of "more guns = more crime" was correct--nor has gun control in the UK led to reduced gun crime--which, again, it should if you were right about things.

Second, it's pretty bold to point out the difference between correlation and causation when your biggest argument is that "Europe has fewer privately owned guns than the US; Europe has less gun crime than the US; therefore privately owned guns lead to gun crime."

sf_39
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Re: Law School Horror Stories?

Postby sf_39 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:17 pm

The issue with using studies to make arguments in the gun debate is there's detailed studies that draw very different conclusions. You can see the urban to rural studies where high gun control towns in highly populated areas have lot of violence and conclude gun control = bad. Or you can look at places where they outlawed assault weapons like Australia and gun violence went down and gun control = good.

That's not to say there is not a right answer. There should be, but approaching this in a scientific matter is murky because there's a lot of variables one need to take into account and if you twist or use evidence in a certain way you can reach different conclusions. We don't have many environments that are perfectly controlled for before and after gun laws are passed and remain independent of the world.




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