0L Need help rounding out resume

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PM2353
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0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby PM2353 » Fri May 24, 2013 6:43 pm

Hey All,

I have a question about fleshing out my resume during 1L so I dont look ridiculous when it comes time to handing out my resume.

From what Ive gathered, pretty much everything on your resume besides your grades and what law school you attend is meaningless. I also read that any unrelated work experience is also disregarded when employers evaluate you. Since this seems to be TLS common wisdom I accept it as 100% true.

But the problem for me is that I virtually have nothing worthwhile to even put on my resume to make it look like I did something other then school. I had a couple odd jobs that are pointless to mention (marketing intern for a semester, law runner for another semester). I didnt participate in any minority clubs or business clubs (Im a URM).

My question is what can I do during 1L to add relevant, albeit insignificant things to fill out my resume to make it seem that I have other things on my plate? So far I have Join my particular minority's law club and trying to pick up some hobby/interest.(Im under the impression that on your resume you include a few minor hobbies/interests that usually generate alot of convo come OCI)

I want to add things that round me out that wont take time away from maximizing my ability to do well on grades. I figure many will say just focus on grades but if there is any small thing I can do to provide filler in my resume I want to take advantage of it.

Sorry if this question has been asked before, Im an 0L and im pretty much oblivious. I probably couldnt even figure out the search function correctly.

In any case thanks for any help you can give me.

RodneyRuxin
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby RodneyRuxin » Fri May 24, 2013 6:51 pm

PM2353 wrote: Since this seems to be TLS common wisdom I accept it as 100% true.


LOL

PM2353
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby PM2353 » Fri May 24, 2013 6:56 pm

RodneyRuxin wrote:
PM2353 wrote: Since this seems to be TLS common wisdom I accept it as 100% true.


LOL


Is it not true? Im really just trying to figure this out. Thanks

jcg
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby jcg » Fri May 24, 2013 7:06 pm

TLS 100% true? I just spoke with a law student and she said that her WE 2.5 years GOT her the interviews and internship, and other students that didn't have the experience, didn't get as many interviews. It might not have been the only reason, but she the interviewers talked a lot about her experience.

You have to show them that you're a professional, not that you want to be a professional.

You did a marketing internship. What did you do? How will that help with your legal profession? If you answer the first I can help with the second. Do you have a marketing degree? Sell yourself.

PM me

PM2353
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby PM2353 » Fri May 24, 2013 7:18 pm

jcg wrote:TLS 100% true? I just spoke with a law student and she said that her WE 2.5 years GOT her the interviews and internship, and other students that didn't have the experience, didn't get as many interviews. It might not have been the only reason, but she the interviewers talked a lot about her experience.

You have to show them that you're a professional, not that you want to be a professional.

You did a marketing internship. What did you do? How will that help with your legal profession? If you answer the first I can help with the second. Do you have a marketing degree? Sell yourself.

PM me



Thanks for the response. I didn't really mean 100% but I assumed that the majority of small jobs arent really a selling point to employers. I was definitely was mistaken. Thanks for clearing that up.

I'm a K - JD majoring in Finance an Marketing. I never did a summer internship. I have had only had 3 small jobs. I rushed a fraternity and pretty much just focused on school and having fun. I got a great gpa 3.85 but I now realized that I should have gotten more real world experience. All I did was get good grades and relaxed. Participated in some fundraising events and that's about it.

The internship/job I had was to "assemble teams of students to head a grassroots marketing campaign". Which I did a great job at but it pretty much was hiring my friends and hosting marketing events.

Any advice on something I can add between now and before 1L hiring that can just fill in some white space on the resume? And thanks jcg ill definitely pm you

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Nelson
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby Nelson » Fri May 24, 2013 7:36 pm

Take time off and get real work experience. K-JDs are at a disadvantage.

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Icculus
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby Icculus » Fri May 24, 2013 7:47 pm

Work experience is a plus, even if it is unrelated. Firms want to know you can make it in a professional environment.

jcg
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby jcg » Fri May 24, 2013 8:08 pm

What 3 small jobs did you have?

PM2353
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby PM2353 » Fri May 24, 2013 8:30 pm

Marketing Job 1 calendar school year

Law office runner ~1 calendar school year

Hard Labor Job - in high school

Work experience is my weakness. Without a doubt. I'm going to lose on that every time. But I guess what I'm asking is what can I do now that will not make me out to look like I didn't do anything with my time other than course work. I'll put it like this: I'd rather come off as the K-JD with median grades that had no work experience but was involved in decently meaningful clubs, clinics, volunteering and extra curriculars than be the K - JD with median grades who did nothing but school and still came out at the curve.

Of course I could always postpone a year and work. Most likely sales associate or retail, and in a couple months maybe swing a finance entry level gig. Everything is an option. But in my circumstances the time to attend is now ( sig other is attending same school getting masters + other considerations) but regardless when we are talking about 100k+ debt I'm open to drop it all and formulate a new plan.

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dw3
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby dw3 » Sat May 25, 2013 1:51 am

Couple quick things:

1.) Grades.
2.) Grades.
3.) Grades.
4.) Grade.

P.S. : Grades.

RodneyRuxin
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby RodneyRuxin » Sat May 25, 2013 2:33 am

dw3 wrote:Couple quick things:

1.) Grades.
2.) Grades.
3.) Grades.
4.) Grade.

P.S. : Grades.

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cinephile
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby cinephile » Sat May 25, 2013 2:39 am

dw3 wrote:Couple quick things:

1.) Grades.
2.) Grades.
3.) Grades.
4.) Grade.

P.S. : Grades.


Nowhere close to being true. I know several people with top grades who struck out. They did so based on a combination of no previous work-experience and immature personalities. But still. Grades aren't everything, if you can't present the personality they expect at the interview, you're out of luck even if you're number 1 in your class.

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dw3
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby dw3 » Sat May 25, 2013 2:43 am

cinephile wrote:
dw3 wrote:Couple quick things:

1.) Grades.
2.) Grades.
3.) Grades.
4.) Grade.

P.S. : Grades.


Nowhere close to being true. I know several people with top grades who struck out. They did so based on a combination of no previous work-experience and immature personalities. But still. Grades aren't everything, if you can't present the personality they expect at the interview, you're out of luck even if you're number 1 in your class.


This is fair. Personality is actually very important. Firms don't want to hire socially awkward fucks.

Grades are still more important though :)

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cinephile
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby cinephile » Sat May 25, 2013 7:32 am

dw3 wrote:
cinephile wrote:
dw3 wrote:Couple quick things:

1.) Grades.
2.) Grades.
3.) Grades.
4.) Grade.

P.S. : Grades.


Nowhere close to being true. I know several people with top grades who struck out. They did so based on a combination of no previous work-experience and immature personalities. But still. Grades aren't everything, if you can't present the personality they expect at the interview, you're out of luck even if you're number 1 in your class.


This is fair. Personality is actually very important. Firms don't want to hire socially awkward fucks.

Grades are still more important though :)


They're really not. I know people in the bottom third who scored biglaw by virtue of great personalities and people in the top 10% who didn't. Everyone thinks grades mean everything, but once you get through OCI you realize that it's not even close to being true. It may get you in the interview initially, but if there's a lottery system then there are other factors in play that may get you the job.

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Scotusnerd
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby Scotusnerd » Sat May 25, 2013 9:20 am

cinephile wrote:They're really not. I know people in the bottom third who scored biglaw by virtue of great personalities and people in the top 10% who didn't. Everyone thinks grades mean everything, but once you get through OCI you realize that it's not even close to being true. It may get you in the interview initially, but if there's a lottery system then there are other factors in play that may get you the job.


This has been true in my experience. When people mean work experience, they really mean two different things, and I think it causes some confusion on this site:

1. You have relevant work experience in an area we practice law in. Or, you have experience in an area we need to know about to practice law effectively.

2. You have held a full-time, eight to five job before so you are more comfortable with the sustained demands work puts on you.

From what I saw at OCI, it wasn't just any work experience work experience, but relevant work experience that was the key difference between who got interviews and who didn't. For example, a fellow and I at OCI had identical grades, but he had experience in real estate. I had unrelated work experience. The biglaw firm gave him an interview and did not give me one.

PM2353
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby PM2353 » Sat May 25, 2013 10:02 am

Thanks Cinephile Scotusnerd dw3 and Rodney.

I realize grades are important, so does every student coming into law school. Just like everyone else I'm going to put serious effort into them and hope for the best outcome.
But in light of what Scotusnerd and cinephile said I'm inclined to try to distinguish myself in other ways. I know extra curriculars won't get me the job or even an interview but I'm in need of relevant experience.

For example, I want to get on a journal to show employers I'm actually doing something and I'm not randomlawstudent with 3.5 and nothing else. I know that journals aren't available to students until after 1L but are the any other programs you can recommend that's available to 1Ls that can fill out a résumé. Would volunteering at a local fundraising organization be helpful? I wanna live where I go to school, at least remain in the state.

Thanks guys

RodneyRuxin
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby RodneyRuxin » Sat May 25, 2013 10:36 am

I've been told by some OCI interviewers that seeing some sort of experience in the community is a positive. You could join some clubs so it doesn't appear you were a hermit during law school.

But if you forego grades for any of this, you're likely making a mistake. While personality/maturity can outweigh good grades in an interview, you're not going to automatically get personality by forcing yourself to do things that will buff your resume.

Practice interviews are recommended, but other than that focus on grades. Do activities that you like/want to do because interviews will go much better if you're not bullshitting.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby JamMasterJ » Sat May 25, 2013 10:52 am

PM2353 wrote:Hey All,

I have a question about fleshing out my resume during 1L so I dont look ridiculous when it comes time to handing out my resume.

From what Ive gathered, pretty much everything on your resume besides your grades and what law school you attend is meaningless. I also read that any unrelated work experience is also disregarded when employers evaluate you. Since this seems to be TLS common wisdom I accept it as 100% true.

But the problem for me is that I virtually have nothing worthwhile to even put on my resume to make it look like I did something other then school. I had a couple odd jobs that are pointless to mention (marketing intern for a semester, law runner for another semester). I didnt participate in any minority clubs or business clubs (Im a URM).

My question is what can I do during 1L to add relevant, albeit insignificant things to fill out my resume to make it seem that I have other things on my plate? So far I have Join my particular minority's law club and trying to pick up some hobby/interest.(Im under the impression that on your resume you include a few minor hobbies/interests that usually generate alot of convo come OCI)

I want to add things that round me out that wont take time away from maximizing my ability to do well on grades. I figure many will say just focus on grades but if there is any small thing I can do to provide filler in my resume I want to take advantage of it.

Sorry if this question has been asked before, Im an 0L and im pretty much oblivious. I probably couldnt even figure out the search function correctly.

In any case thanks for any help you can give me.

I think you're referring to LS admissions, where yes, all but the most elite softs mean nothing. However, in the job search, dude's random 3 years of mediocre WE that he can spin as a great learning experience that instilled blah blah blah is quite meaningful where it wasn't really a difference maker before school.

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piccolittle
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby piccolittle » Sat May 25, 2013 11:04 am

The emphasis on grades in the TLS "common wisdom" kind of bugs me because it leads to situations like this. Everyone pushes that "good grades are key" because, obviously, you should be working your butt off during 1L. However, I see work experience as job insurance - your resume, by itself, should be strong enough to get you an interview. If your grades are as amazing as you hope, great. If not, your resume can make up for that. There is nothing worse than someone with bad grades and nothing good on their resume.

TL;DR the "grades are everything" trope needs to end because it makes people think that grades are everything.

PM2353
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby PM2353 » Sat May 25, 2013 1:01 pm

Really benefitting from this discussion.

I really wish I could be coming into LS with more professional experience. That and grades are the biggest hurdles in need to cross but at this point I can't go back in time and get it. Like Ruxin said I'm going to try to join some clubs to make it seem like I'm not a hermit.

I'm considering joining my minority's law association. Joining some type of finance club if that even exists or some other club that aligns with my interests. On the weekend try to become involved with a local organization. Pick up a hobby pertaining to the region I want to work in like hiking trails. Trying to do all of these things without sacrificing my efforts to get good grades will be really hard. I just need something to talk to interviewers about other then my call of duty kill to death ratio and how awesome my frat was. If you catch my drift.

I realize I am at a disadvantage without work experience. What do you think is the best way to spin the situation to reduce the negative of no WE. If you were in my situation what would you do (in addition to grades) ?

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LSL
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby LSL » Sat May 25, 2013 1:18 pm

.
Last edited by LSL on Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

PM2353
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby PM2353 » Sat May 25, 2013 2:50 pm

LSL wrote:
PM2353 wrote:Marketing Job 1 calendar school year

Law office runner ~1 calendar school year

Hard Labor Job - in high school

Work experience is my weakness. Without a doubt. I'm going to lose on that every time. But I guess what I'm asking is what can I do now that will not make me out to look like I didn't do anything with my time other than course work. I'll put it like this: I'd rather come off as the K-JD with median grades that had no work experience but was involved in decently meaningful clubs, clinics, volunteering and extra curriculars than be the K - JD with median grades who did nothing but school and still came out at the curve.

Of course I could always postpone a year and work. Most likely sales associate or retail, and in a couple months maybe swing a finance entry level gig. Everything is an option. But in my circumstances the time to attend is now ( sig other is attending same school getting masters + other considerations) but regardless when we are talking about 100k+ debt I'm open to drop it all and formulate a new plan.


Look OP, you're not in as bad of shape as you think. There's some solid stuff you can work with here. The marketing internship and law runner gig are both solid. Just think about how you can fill out those things:

Marketing intern:
-Organized student community members into teams and headed grassroots marketing campaign in *insert field of work*

Law runner:
-Assisted firm with transporting blah blah blah documents, etc.

Other information you could make into bullet points:
-Did you do clerical work for either of these positions? If so, what program(s) or technology did you use to complete the work?
"Constructed documents, campaign materials, and brochures using Microsoft Office Suite"
"Faxed papers and wrote emails to blah blah blah location."
"Made phone calls to team members and assigned specific tasks."

Generally
You HAVE to look for how you can showcase your work rather than why your work "isn't good experience". You mentioned above that the marketing intern thing was basically you just organizing your friends. So what? The potential employer doesn't know (and doesn't need to know)that. Work is work. Polish that turd into: "Organized student community members into teams and headed grassroots marketing campaign in *insert field of work*"

You definitely have enough to work with here. You'll be fine. Just stop looking at the positions for what they "didn't have" and start thinking of experience from them that would be relevant to future employers. Again, even if you only did something one time, write it down. You don't have to be honest about frequency unless the employer asked. And honestly, if you've faxed one time, you've probably got it down.

Join other student organizations if you want as long as they're not huge time sinks. Employers generally won't care much about them at all, but they might make good conversation pieces. Either way, I'd find more clerical work to do before law school. That's going to likely carry the most relevant skill set.


Thanks for writing all that out and putting it in good context. Your right, although in my mind the work was meaningless and irrelevant I could probably highlight some of the skills I learned and the responsibilities i had. I will definitely have to polish them up and make it more relative to what employers are looking for. I will just have to know my resume inside and out and speak intelligently on how I " organized student community members into teams and carried out grassroots marketing campaigns which I designed". I guess I felt uneasy playing it off as if I was some big shot who dominated the marketing field at school and made my company tons of profits through my efforts. But for all intensive purposes I could say that considering sales of the product I was marketing did go up.

I really appreciate everyone on this thread chiming in. Im hoping that come OCI and other networking opportunities I can carry myself in a professional manner despite my lack of WE. I feel like im a sociable, humble and respectful individual but I know that most interviewers can distinguish who is already a professional and who is not. Im just going to fake it until i make it and hope for the best.

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LSL
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby LSL » Sat May 25, 2013 3:05 pm

.
Last edited by LSL on Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mr.Throwback
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby Mr.Throwback » Mon May 27, 2013 1:33 am

Hell, I've acted my entire life. Even attended a performing arts highschool. So i put on my resume "Speech and diction training".

Put whatever you can. Also, for each job you can tailor your descriptions towards a more legal environment. For example, I work at a walk in insurance agency (we are tops on long island so I will definitely put that), and i'll add some descriptions such as "assisted clients by helping them choose better insurance coverage".

There will be plenty of students who have never held a single job in their lives.

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togepi
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Re: 0L Need help rounding out resume

Postby togepi » Mon May 27, 2013 4:17 am

Would teaching English abroad for two years be something to leave off the resume?

I have an engineering degree and worked on a construction project for 6 months so that's definitely going on there. I'm just curious as to how teaching abroad is viewed by the interviewer.

TYIA




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