Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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Bond
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Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions

Postby Bond » Fri May 17, 2013 7:14 pm

Happy to answer any and all questions now that spring finals are over.

Ask away.

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princeR
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Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions

Postby princeR » Sun May 19, 2013 11:25 pm

How are the job prospects? Does going to ND give one a legitimate shot at "good" job prospects? I am good broadly because I am just interested in what people are doing in general. What are some of the more interesting positions people have been able to land?

Thanks for the thread OP.

rad lulz
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Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions

Postby rad lulz » Sun May 19, 2013 11:29 pm

How do you like parietals

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Bond
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Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions

Postby Bond » Mon May 20, 2013 12:03 am

princeR wrote:How are the job prospects? Does going to ND give one a legitimate shot at "good" job prospects? I am good broadly because I am just interested in what people are doing in general. What are some of the more interesting positions people have been able to land?

Thanks for the thread OP.

I can only speak directly to 1L summer employment (I'm class of 2015 and just became a 2L). As far as my class goes, everyone that I know of has some type of legal job for the summer. I would say working for a judge and RA'ing for a professor are the two most common. Five of us (including myself) were able to land SA's. 1L SA's seem more to do with luck than anything else ... certainly grades and geographical ties help, but it's very unpredictable.

The class ahead of us (2014) seems to be doing "well" in regard to SA's and clerkships. I would estimate their class will graduate with around 33% attaining quality firm jobs plus Article III clerkships. The 33% figure certainly isn't where it was before the crash, but it's at least returning to a respectable number.

Notre Dame is a good law school that likely outperforms its ranking in terms of job prospects, but I wouldn't come here without a substantial scholarship.

ndorbu
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Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions

Postby ndorbu » Mon May 20, 2013 6:06 pm

Bond,

Thanks for the post. I visited the school about a month ago and thought it was gorgeous. Beautiful library, classrooms, etc. However, I was concerned immediately with how small Notre Dame seemed. I feel like all there was was the school... and that is it. Do law school students ever suffer from boredom in South Bend? I guess this is a question geared towards the social life aspect of things in ND. Are there any bars you guys go to for de-stressing?

Thank you very much

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Bond
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Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions

Postby Bond » Tue May 21, 2013 10:09 pm

ndorbu wrote:Bond,

Thanks for the post. I visited the school about a month ago and thought it was gorgeous. Beautiful library, classrooms, etc. However, I was concerned immediately with how small Notre Dame seemed. I feel like all there was was the school... and that is it. Do law school students ever suffer from boredom in South Bend? I guess this is a question geared towards the social life aspect of things in ND. Are there any bars you guys go to for de-stressing?

Thank you very much

I think your observation and concern is a fair one. I went to a big state school for undergrad that is basically the exact opposite of Notre Dame (both in terms of ideology and size). You're right in that most of the activities do center around the university and less so South Bend. But, on the whole, I think you'll find enough activities to keep you busy -- especially during 1L year, when in all honesty, there is not an abundance of free time.

There are plenty of bars though, especially now that the Eddy Street area near the entrance to campus has been built up over the years (http://tour.nd.edu/locations/eddy-street-commons/). Notre Dame students tend to be very social. It will be a rare weekend (probably only the first or second before finals) that you won't find something to do.

ndorbu
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Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions

Postby ndorbu » Wed May 22, 2013 11:43 am

Bond wrote:
ndorbu wrote:Bond,

Thanks for the post. I visited the school about a month ago and thought it was gorgeous. Beautiful library, classrooms, etc. However, I was concerned immediately with how small Notre Dame seemed. I feel like all there was was the school... and that is it. Do law school students ever suffer from boredom in South Bend? I guess this is a question geared towards the social life aspect of things in ND. Are there any bars you guys go to for de-stressing?

Thank you very much

I think your observation and concern is a fair one. I went to a big state school for undergrad that is basically the exact opposite of Notre Dame (both in terms of ideology and size). You're right in that most of the activities do center around the university and less so South Bend. But, on the whole, I think you'll find enough activities to keep you busy -- especially during 1L year, when in all honesty, there is not an abundance of free time.

There are plenty of bars though, especially now that the Eddy Street area near the entrance to campus has been built up over the years (http://tour.nd.edu/locations/eddy-street-commons/). Notre Dame students tend to be very social. It will be a rare weekend (probably only the first or second before finals) that you won't find something to do.



Gotcha. Thanks for your advice, nice to know about Eddy Street and the fact that most activities will be located on campus. I'm deciding between BU and ND right now and the two schools, it seems, could not be more different!

jad0re
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Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions

Postby jad0re » Wed May 22, 2013 10:58 pm

Bond wrote:Happy to answer any and all questions now that spring finals are over.

Ask away.


do you mind sharing your grades?
are grades important when looking for 1LSA?

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Bond
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Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions

Postby Bond » Thu May 23, 2013 6:08 pm

jad0re wrote:
Bond wrote:Happy to answer any and all questions now that spring finals are over.

Ask away.


do you mind sharing your grades?
are grades important when looking for 1LSA?

Notre Dame doesn't rank, so it's difficult to give you a useful answer. Everyone that I know who landed a 1L SA (including myself) had a high GPA, which I do think is likely a prerequisite. However, as I said previously, there are a lot of other random factors that go into the equation such as geographical ties, prior work experience, etc. I would concentrate on doing well first semester, and then try to pursue a 1L SA gig after your fall finals.

andythefir
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Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions

Postby andythefir » Thu May 23, 2013 6:30 pm

Bond wrote:
princeR wrote:How are the job prospects? Does going to ND give one a legitimate shot at "good" job prospects? I am good broadly because I am just interested in what people are doing in general. What are some of the more interesting positions people have been able to land?

The class ahead of us (2014) seems to be doing "well" in regard to SA's and clerkships. I would estimate their class will graduate with around 33% attaining quality firm jobs plus Article III clerkships. The 33% figure certainly isn't where it was before the crash, but it's at least returning to a respectable number.




ndorbu wrote:
Bond wrote:
ndorbu wrote:Bond,

Gotcha. Thanks for your advice, nice to know about Eddy Street and the fact that most activities will be located on campus. I'm deciding between BU and ND right now and the two schools, it seems, could not be more different!


Class of 2014/rising 3L: 33% for my class is way too low. That may be the figure for traditional biglaw, but so many of us are either not interested in biglaw or are going back home to tiny markets. My guess is 50-60% of my class has objectively good jobs-meaning big firms with great post-graduation prospects. Of the rest most seem happy about their outcomes, and ND has awesome safety nets if you strike out or choose PI.

I've said this in other threads but it bears repeating: NDLS is very different from its peers. If you want traditional biglaw it's no better than its peers, and if you want Boston BU would probably crush ND in Boston placement. But if you're trying to get into a secondary of tertiary market ND is the only choice. ND will also open doors to conservative judges for clerkships and conservative summer gigs like Blackstone.

balzie94
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Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions

Postby balzie94 » Thu May 23, 2013 6:36 pm

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Last edited by balzie94 on Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Sat May 25, 2013 1:07 am

Do I know you?

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ndirish2010
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Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Sat May 25, 2013 1:08 am

balzie94 wrote:Just graduated from NDLS. ND's job situation can be summed up thus: major market big firms requires Top 15% + LR. The same also generally applies for federal clerkships. However, for secondary market firms (Miami, Cincy, Cleveland), you can be Top 20-50% and still find something if you are both from that market and pursue that market diligently. (This is basic economics: those secondary markets typically do not have T-25-caliber schools, so an ND person with a compelling reason to enter that market will be attractive. The flip-side of this is that firms in these areas pay substantially less than major market firms but require about as much of the work.)

ND used to be a solid school for Chicago big law. This is no longer true.

Likewise, do not come here if you think you will wind up in NY, LA, or DC big firms without being Top 15%.

To be sure, the Class of 2013 did better than the Classes of 2011 and 2012 with employment prospects. But be advised: there are not many people with $160k jobs. Most people with firm jobs will be earning $60k-$100k and those with clerkships/PI less than $60k. Also, probably 20% of the class did not have a job at graduation, and a fair number of people with jobs had 1-year clerkships with federal magistrate or state appellate and trial judges, which I would hardly count as jobs with lucrative long-term prospects (despite what people with these clerkships might believe).


20%? Try 40-45%.

balzie94
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Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions

Postby balzie94 » Sun May 26, 2013 8:21 pm

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Last edited by balzie94 on Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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princeR
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Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions

Postby princeR » Thu May 30, 2013 8:42 am

I want ND so bad but I'm still nervous about the prospects coming out of school... 40% unemployed at graduation seems downright abysmal. However, being from the PNW and not having a great ranked regional school (UW is the best but took a huge hit in the rankings) I could see ND stacking up very nicely, but again, I am incredibly hesitant if these anecdotes are even remotely close to the truth.

Any information on dual degrees? Know anyone who did JD/M.A. in History?

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ndirish2010
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Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:38 am

A reliable source told me that 55% of our class had employment lined up post graduation. This was about two weeks before finals. I don't know of anyone with a state trial court clerkship, but I've not really talked about employment with anyone outside of the LR office for the past two years. You may be right. I also rarely visited CDO (except that Jackie is doing a good job with the clerkship stuff, I think)...can't really speak to the others.

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Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions

Postby ls23 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:02 pm

I was curious if someone could speak to the overall student body and atmosphere of NDLS. I went to a large state school and while I am not looking for a grad school that parties like crazy all the time, but I also don't want one that just bowls all the time (not saying ND does, just wanted to give the other end), how often do people go out to the bars?. Also, I am not Catholic or Christian so I was kind of concerned that during my visit the guide mentioned the school being about 60% percent Catholic. Does is bleed into the class and social situations a lot and are any of you non-Catholics? Lastly, someone earlier said ND is not great for Chicago anymore unless you are in the top 15%, is that changing with the new CDO or is this just how its going to be moving forward as ND just focuses on secondary markets?

I know there is a lot of questions in there, just have a limited time to make a decision about ND and want to make sure I get multiple perspectives before I make one. Thanks in advance for any responses!

andythefir
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Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions

Postby andythefir » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:11 pm

ls23 wrote:I was curious if someone could speak to the overall student body and atmosphere of NDLS. I went to a large state school and while I am not looking for a grad school that parties like crazy all the time, but I also don't want one that just bowls all the time (not saying ND does, just wanted to give the other end), how often do people go out to the bars?. Also, I am not Catholic or Christian so I was kind of concerned that during my visit the guide mentioned the school being about 60% percent Catholic. Does is bleed into the class and social situations a lot and are any of you non-Catholics? Lastly, someone earlier said ND is not great for Chicago anymore unless you are in the top 15%, is that changing with the new CDO or is this just how its going to be moving forward as ND just focuses on secondary markets?

I know there is a lot of questions in there, just have a limited time to make a decision about ND and want to make sure I get multiple perspectives before I make one. Thanks in advance for any responses!


As someone who doesn't go out to bars frequently, trust me, plenty of people spent lots of time in bars. Also, lots more folks got Chicago this year than in years past.

I was actually disappointed NDLS wasn't more Catholic, the numbers you cited are probably (1) collected by admissions, where people will say they're Catholic/Christian even if they're not to get a boost (2) not at all reflective of how many people are hardcore religious. They had mass at the end of orientation, which was on a Sunday, and there were maybe 20-30 people there. Still, if you can't handle people around you being nominally religious you will probably be uncomfortable, but people aren't much more religious than anywhere outside of the hysterically left wing undergrad I went to. Religion has been brought up precisely once in class in my 2 years at ND, for a total of maybe 30 seconds in the context of the death penalty.

ls23
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Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions

Postby ls23 » Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:25 pm

Thank you for the response! I was also looking into the Chicago externship and the Business Law specialization at ND. Any opinions on either of those?

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Bond
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Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions

Postby Bond » Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:58 pm

ls23 wrote:I was curious if someone could speak to the overall student body and atmosphere of NDLS. I went to a large state school and while I am not looking for a grad school that parties like crazy all the time, but I also don't want one that just bowls all the time (not saying ND does, just wanted to give the other end), how often do people go out to the bars?. Also, I am not Catholic or Christian so I was kind of concerned that during my visit the guide mentioned the school being about 60% percent Catholic. Does is bleed into the class and social situations a lot and are any of you non-Catholics? Lastly, someone earlier said ND is not great for Chicago anymore unless you are in the top 15%, is that changing with the new CDO or is this just how its going to be moving forward as ND just focuses on secondary markets?

I know there is a lot of questions in there, just have a limited time to make a decision about ND and want to make sure I get multiple perspectives before I make one. Thanks in advance for any responses!

I went to a large state school for undergrad, so I understand your concern. ND will be different, but I enjoy it just as much as my undergrad. What will make the most difference is that law school is generally more time-consuming than undergrad.

If you have any more questions feel free to PM me and I'll be more specific.

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Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:41 pm

I would be surprised if 60% of my class were practicing Catholics. But, like Andy said, if you aren't tolerant of religion, you should not come to ND. If you went to a liberal undergrad or are from a liberal area, you might be shocked by the atmosphere at NDLS (it isn't the typical college or law school- there is a sizable conservative and libertarian contingent and a strong plurality of people who take their religion very seriously). If that's not what you want, you should look elsewhere.

As far as Chicago/employment, I mean schools in the range of ND are not great for ANYWHERE if you are not in the top 10-15%. I was in that range and struck out at OCI after 9 callbacks, so there are no guarantees. Chicago does seem to be coming back a bit, but if you are Chicago or bust it would be a risky proposition.

UMich11
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Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions

Postby UMich11 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:39 pm

What would you pick. Notre Dame or UMich. I've been admitted to both and need to decide. Small scholly for ND but i think i can try to take it up.




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