How do engineering majors fare in law school?

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:42 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:I agree with everything that has been said about the importance of writing. Engineering majors who can write do extremely well in law school. Unfortunately, not many engineering majors can write well. As someone else said, journalistic writing is the most useful type of writing you can learn in undergrad.


Other than LRW, writing barely matters in law school, at least 1L.

Engineers average overall.


Writing clearly and efficiently is basically the only skill that matters in law school. Any shithead in high school could learn and memorize law school material and spot issues on a torts exam. The only thing that distinguishes people is writing ability.


Analysis bro.


Analysis is easy as fuck too.

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lhanvt13
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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby lhanvt13 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:44 pm

soccerfreak wrote:Don't worry too much about writing. I mean you can't suck at it, but otherwise you'll be fine.

I do think the problem-solving skills I gained in a hard science helped me during law school...hard to really know though.

And job info for engineers isn't really conflicted...if you wanna do ip, you will absolutely have a boost in the job market.

thanks for the encouragement haha how much of a boost do you think it has? I'm not looking for any exact number but if you have any examples of someone clearly getting a boost for ip that another person wouldn't have gotten for... something like m&a?

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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby 09042014 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:46 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Other than LRW, writing barely matters in law school, at least 1L.

Engineers average overall.


Writing clearly and efficiently is basically the only skill that matters in law school. Any shithead in high school could learn and memorize law school material and spot issues on a torts exam. The only thing that distinguishes people is writing ability.


Analysis bro.


Analysis is easy as fuck too.


It's what differentiates exams for the most part (I'm including issue spotting in analysis because it is for the most part).

I've never seen a grading rubric that gives points for writing. Obviously poor writing may obscure analysis, but only if it's really fucking terrible.

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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:48 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I've never seen a grading rubric that gives points for writing. Obviously poor writing may obscure analysis, but only if it's really fucking terrible.


I guess I lumped in the ability to analyze on the fly in "writing ability." The people who fuck up law school exams are the same people who ramble on for too long on a given issue because they can't spit out the prose concisely to properly analyze an issue on the fly.

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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby lhanvt13 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:48 pm

mephistopheles wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
mephistopheles wrote:yeah, engineers don't seem to have fared that well...


their writing is problematic for exams.


The engineers I know at NW seem to do all over the place. More above average than below, but not by a suspicious margin.



yeah, i could see that. the problem over here has something to do with structuring answers and not really doing the whole apply law to fact, but instead writing all of the rules and then giving a conclusory once over at the very end?

at least from what i gather from postmortems.

So would you say learning how to write a law school exam is harder for engineers or is it mostly just stubbornness(?). By stubbornness (can't think of a better word atm) I mean "this is how I used to do it in undergrad and for research papers so I'm sure this will work out well for law school so I'm not changing anything"-type mentality

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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby 09042014 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:53 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I've never seen a grading rubric that gives points for writing. Obviously poor writing may obscure analysis, but only if it's really fucking terrible.


I guess I lumped in the ability to analyze on the fly in "writing ability." The people who fuck up law school exams are the same people who ramble on for too long on a given issue because they can't spit out the prose concisely to properly analyze an issue on the fly.


I'd agree with that, but plenty of people can analyze on the fly but are pretty atrocious writers (especially people who are untrained in it).

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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:57 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I've never seen a grading rubric that gives points for writing. Obviously poor writing may obscure analysis, but only if it's really fucking terrible.


I guess I lumped in the ability to analyze on the fly in "writing ability." The people who fuck up law school exams are the same people who ramble on for too long on a given issue because they can't spit out the prose concisely to properly analyze an issue on the fly.


I'd agree with that, but plenty of people can analyze on the fly but are pretty atrocious writers (especially people who are untrained in it).


That's why I said journalistic writing is useful for law school. Journalists have to write concisely under time pressure after spotting a bunch of issues/gathering facts. It doesn't have to be beautiful writing, but it has to be readable. If you're an "atrocious" writer, I'd imagine a law prof would have no idea what you're even saying half the time.

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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby LaBarrister » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:05 pm

lhanvt13 wrote:
mephistopheles wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
mephistopheles wrote:yeah, engineers don't seem to have fared that well...


their writing is problematic for exams.


The engineers I know at NW seem to do all over the place. More above average than below, but not by a suspicious margin.



yeah, i could see that. the problem over here has something to do with structuring answers and not really doing the whole apply law to fact, but instead writing all of the rules and then giving a conclusory once over at the very end?

at least from what i gather from postmortems.

So would you say learning how to write a law school exam is harder for engineers or is it mostly just stubbornness(?). By stubbornness (can't think of a better word atm) I mean "this is how I used to do it in undergrad and for research papers so I'm sure this will work out well for law school so I'm not changing anything"-type mentality


I know a lot of fellow engineering majors with this mentality. You try to tell them how to write prose, and they get all snobby like they don't need the help. Just because you can design a nuclear reactor and distribute a report on it to the rest of the company doesn't mean you know how to write well.

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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby lhanvt13 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:06 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I've never seen a grading rubric that gives points for writing. Obviously poor writing may obscure analysis, but only if it's really fucking terrible.


I guess I lumped in the ability to analyze on the fly in "writing ability." The people who fuck up law school exams are the same people who ramble on for too long on a given issue because they can't spit out the prose concisely to properly analyze an issue on the fly.


I'd agree with that, but plenty of people can analyze on the fly but are pretty atrocious writers (especially people who are untrained in it).


That's why I said journalistic writing is useful for law school. Journalists have to write concisely under time pressure after spotting a bunch of issues/gathering facts. It doesn't have to be beautiful writing, but it has to be readable. If you're an "atrocious" writer, I'd imagine a law prof would have no idea what you're even saying half the time.

So if I was taking a course at a local CC, I should look for a journalism class over a technical writing class? since obviously I can't be a journalist for 3 months...

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lhanvt13
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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby lhanvt13 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:06 pm

LaBarrister wrote:I know a lot of fellow engineering majors with this mentality. You try to tell them how to write prose, and they get all snobby like they don't need the help. Just because you can design a nuclear reactor and distribute a report on it to the rest of the company doesn't mean you know how to write well.

ah, good thing I'm open to change

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lhanvt13
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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby lhanvt13 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:34 pm

Hi guys, sorry for bumping an old post but on a related note, though I know it's forbidden to talk about as a 0L, how does a low undergrad GPA factor in to IP SA's for 1L and 2L (given that I actually qualify after my first year.... :/ ) ?

I am:
computer science
Ranked engineering school (idk how much this factors in if at all)
uGPA: 2.7
LSAC GPA (does this even matter after admissions?): 2.99
only summer internship work experiences...

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mephistopheles
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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby mephistopheles » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:42 pm

lhanvt13 wrote:Hi guys, sorry for bumping an old post but on a related note, though I know it's forbidden to talk about as a 0L, how does a low undergrad GPA factor in to IP SA's for 1L and 2L (given that I actually qualify after my first year.... :/ ) ?

I am:
computer science
Ranked engineering school (idk how much this factors in if at all)
uGPA: 2.7
LSAC GPA (does this even matter after admissions?): 2.99
only summer internship work experiences...



just don't put it on your resume and it shouldn't come up. they'll really only care about your first semester 1l grades.

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lhanvt13
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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby lhanvt13 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:48 pm

mephistopheles wrote:
lhanvt13 wrote:Hi guys, sorry for bumping an old post but on a related note, though I know it's forbidden to talk about as a 0L, how does a low undergrad GPA factor in to IP SA's for 1L and 2L (given that I actually qualify after my first year.... :/ ) ?

I am:
computer science
Ranked engineering school (idk how much this factors in if at all)
uGPA: 2.7
LSAC GPA (does this even matter after admissions?): 2.99
only summer internship work experiences...



just don't put it on your resume and it shouldn't come up. they'll really only care about your first semester 1l grades.

I heard of some boutiques asking but unless it's a boutique I shouldn't worry about it ?

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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby 09042014 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:56 pm

mephistopheles wrote:
lhanvt13 wrote:Hi guys, sorry for bumping an old post but on a related note, though I know it's forbidden to talk about as a 0L, how does a low undergrad GPA factor in to IP SA's for 1L and 2L (given that I actually qualify after my first year.... :/ ) ?

I am:
computer science
Ranked engineering school (idk how much this factors in if at all)
uGPA: 2.7
LSAC GPA (does this even matter after admissions?): 2.99
only summer internship work experiences...



just don't put it on your resume and it shouldn't come up. they'll really only care about your first semester 1l grades.


This is really untrue. Damn near all firms that actually hire 1Ls for IP SA's want your UG grades. And they'll ding you for a 2.7. Try for it, but be prepared for a flood of rejections.

2L is a different story. Firms who tend to do mostly patent lit, TEND not to ask for UG grades. And firms who tend to do prosecution tend to care about UG grades still.

lukertin
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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby lukertin » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:06 am

Well, this thread was a wholly amusing read.

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lhanvt13
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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby lhanvt13 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:05 pm

lukertin wrote:Well, this thread was a wholly amusing read.

Why so?

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mephistopheles
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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby mephistopheles » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:11 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
This is really untrue. Damn near all firms that actually hire 1Ls for IP SA's want your UG grades. And they'll ding you for a 2.7. Try for it, but be prepared for a flood of rejections.

2L is a different story. Firms who tend to do mostly patent lit, TEND not to ask for UG grades. And firms who tend to do prosecution tend to care about UG grades still.



ymmv, i guess. anecdotally, i've heard different.

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lhanvt13
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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby lhanvt13 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:12 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
mephistopheles wrote:
lhanvt13 wrote:Hi guys, sorry for bumping an old post but on a related note, though I know it's forbidden to talk about as a 0L, how does a low undergrad GPA factor in to IP SA's for 1L and 2L (given that I actually qualify after my first year.... :/ ) ?

I am:
computer science
Ranked engineering school (idk how much this factors in if at all)
uGPA: 2.7
LSAC GPA (does this even matter after admissions?): 2.99
only summer internship work experiences...



just don't put it on your resume and it shouldn't come up. they'll really only care about your first semester 1l grades.


This is really untrue. Damn near all firms that actually hire 1Ls for IP SA's want your UG grades. And they'll ding you for a 2.7. Try for it, but be prepared for a flood of rejections.

2L is a different story. Firms who tend to do mostly patent lit, TEND not to ask for UG grades. And firms who tend to do prosecution tend to care about UG grades still.

I see. So would i have better chances (as in 0.00001% to 0.000011%) if I were to not go for prosecution at all ? Would it be advisable if I apply to some firms for IP lit and some firms for something else, say, m&a?

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lhanvt13
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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby lhanvt13 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:14 pm

mephistopheles wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
This is really untrue. Damn near all firms that actually hire 1Ls for IP SA's want your UG grades. And they'll ding you for a 2.7. Try for it, but be prepared for a flood of rejections.

2L is a different story. Firms who tend to do mostly patent lit, TEND not to ask for UG grades. And firms who tend to do prosecution tend to care about UG grades still.



ymmv, i guess. anecdotally, i've heard different.

Well poop, now I'm confused

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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby mephistopheles » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:16 pm

lhanvt13 wrote:
mephistopheles wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
This is really untrue. Damn near all firms that actually hire 1Ls for IP SA's want your UG grades. And they'll ding you for a 2.7. Try for it, but be prepared for a flood of rejections.

2L is a different story. Firms who tend to do mostly patent lit, TEND not to ask for UG grades. And firms who tend to do prosecution tend to care about UG grades still.



ymmv, i guess. anecdotally, i've heard different.

Well poop, now I'm confused



plan on it being difficult.

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lhanvt13
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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby lhanvt13 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:23 pm

mephistopheles wrote:
lhanvt13 wrote:
mephistopheles wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
This is really untrue. Damn near all firms that actually hire 1Ls for IP SA's want your UG grades. And they'll ding you for a 2.7. Try for it, but be prepared for a flood of rejections.

2L is a different story. Firms who tend to do mostly patent lit, TEND not to ask for UG grades. And firms who tend to do prosecution tend to care about UG grades still.



ymmv, i guess. anecdotally, i've heard different.

Well poop, now I'm confused



plan on it being difficult.


Already embedded that into my brain.. haha
been on these forums for a decent amount of time and I just keep hearing polar opposites and maybe some in between about this matter. Maybe it also depends on the branch and whatnot..

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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby Bumi » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:31 pm

mephistopheles wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
This is really untrue. Damn near all firms that actually hire 1Ls for IP SA's want your UG grades. And they'll ding you for a 2.7. Try for it, but be prepared for a flood of rejections.

2L is a different story. Firms who tend to do mostly patent lit, TEND not to ask for UG grades. And firms who tend to do prosecution tend to care about UG grades still.



ymmv, i guess. anecdotally, i've heard different.


Desert Fox is correct in my experience, as usual. My UG gpa was under a 2.7. All 1L SA firms I applied to asked for my UG transcript. All rejected me. Half 2L SA firms I applied to asked for my UG transcript. Those half all rejected me, the other half evaluated me on my law grades and interview and my success was consistent with those credentials plus the boost you get for being IP.

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lhanvt13
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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby lhanvt13 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:37 pm

Bumi wrote:
mephistopheles wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
This is really untrue. Damn near all firms that actually hire 1Ls for IP SA's want your UG grades. And they'll ding you for a 2.7. Try for it, but be prepared for a flood of rejections.

2L is a different story. Firms who tend to do mostly patent lit, TEND not to ask for UG grades. And firms who tend to do prosecution tend to care about UG grades still.



ymmv, i guess. anecdotally, i've heard different.


Desert Fox is correct in my experience, as usual. My UG gpa was under a 2.7. All 1L SA firms I applied to asked for my UG transcript. All rejected me. Half 2L SA firms I applied to asked for my UG transcript. Those half all rejected me, the other half evaluated me on my law grades and interview and my success was consistent with those credentials plus the boost you get for being IP.

Thanks for the input sir :) I think I have a better picture of the whole situ now

edit: would you advise me to not even pursue IP if I want even the slightest chance at a 1L SA ?

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dood
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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby dood » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:48 pm

Ohiobumpkin wrote:I know one engineering major who has also cited the amount of writing in law school to be the biggest obstacle. I would also recommend you take as many writing electives as possible. But good choice of major btw! :)



wtf? no. every engineer is better prepared. dunno wat acroynom ur engineering program used, but science format is very smilar to the legal brief/memo/exam answer.

issue / hypothesis
rule / principle laws
analysis / analysis
conclusion / results

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dood
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Re: How do engineering majors fare in law school?

Postby dood » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:54 pm

LaBarrister wrote:
I know a lot of fellow engineering majors with this mentality. You try to tell them how to write prose, and they get all snobby like they don't need the help. Just because you can design a nuclear reactor and distribute a report on it to the rest of the company doesn't mean you know how to write well.


yeah every engineer i know has dis mentality, including myself. because its true. prose is bad. i follow 1 basic rule. write in sentences with less than 9 words and each word less than 3 syllabubs. worked out pretty well. got me a jorb, published, called "the best writer ever" by CoA judges, partners at my firm, etc. follow the rule, bro. love it. live by it.

when u edit, think to urself "will a retard reading this understand the point im trying to make?" b/c most profs, partners, and judges, take literally 2-3 min to glance over your 20 page paper/motion/bench memo, therefore reading at a retard level.




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