Do You Regret Going to Law School?

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:27 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:Bizzy is doing a great job winning the hearts and minds of this thread. I'm sure he will have no problem becoming a politician.


I am not trying to win these guys hearts and minds. These guys are parsing my words and creating drama out of nothing. I provide a minor suggestion of where this guy should apply to for a job and he throws a tantrum. I was just trying to be helpful. I didn't get anything out of providing this suggestion.

Dude, everything you've posted in this thread is so tone-deaf my head hurts.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby bizzybone1313 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:28 pm

Emma. wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:
bk1 wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:All I am essentially saying is that one WOULD THINK (notice the carefully constructed manner of this wording) that a T-14 law degree would shield most people from having disastrous outcomes.

wut

You do realize that every year, around 1/4 of the T14 graduate unemployed or underemployed, right?

ETA: gdi, scooped by emma.


75% of people having good outcomes is pretty outstanding from my point of view. Part of the problem is that a lot of 0L's have been coddled and have lived upper-middle class lifestyles their entire lives. What about percentages for other fields? I don't know what you guys expect. 90% good outcomes? 95% good outcomes? That didn't happen for people straight out of undergrad in almost any discipline, so why should people expect that in the legal field even if it is at a T-14?


Yeah, that was BJ's problem. Straight from UG with too much coddling. :lol: :lol: :lol:


You know as well as I do that some people have, in fact, have been coddled way too much. You can joke about it, but I sometimes get the feeling that everyone expects the entire class at a T-14 to make $160K right off the bat.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby Mal Reynolds » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:28 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:Bizzy is doing a great job winning the hearts and minds of this thread. I'm sure he will have no problem becoming a politician.


I am not trying to win these guys hearts and minds. These guys are parsing my words and creating drama out of nothing. I provide a minor suggestion of where this guy should apply to for a job and he throws a tantrum. I was just trying to be helpful. I didn't get anything out of providing this suggestion.


Well in order to be a politician you need to use every social encounter (even on the Internet) as practice in the political arena. You're doing a shit job right now.

keg411
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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby keg411 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:31 pm

bizzy, I suggest you pick a new career. You have to be well-liked to get into politics.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby bizzybone1313 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:I want to practice civil rights, immigration or plantiff side employment law. My undergrad degree and WE makes me a shoe in for energy law though. If I cannot get civil rights, immigration or employment law, I will settle for an energy law gig. Colorado is very important for my future career ambitions. I cannot do it in Texas.


bizzybone1313 wrote:I am surprised Virginia hasn't received more votes than Michigan or Duke as being the least portable. Don't Michigan and Duke have more lay prestige than Virginia which is part of what makes a school portable in the first place? Yeah.....I am not sure about schools, such as Penn or Cornell because of their northeastern locations. I would consider attending if they throw a lot of money at me though. I would pay sticker for Columbia. I am assuming Columbia could get me to Colorado almost as much as HYS.


bizzybone1313 wrote:
bk1 wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:I have been pushing back the LSAT for a long time for this very reason. I know I one test away from H(YTTT)SC. Yale is overrated. :D. In fact for me, it goes like this: HCS (very close tie between C and S)Y. On that note, its time to go study.


For you? Well good thing you're the one who is going to be hiring yourself down the road.


Harvard has produced more leaders and outstanding alumni than Yale (I know, I know its in part because they are a diploma mill). Yale is overrated though. Harvard carries more weight in non-legal jobs.


bizzybone1313 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Why do you want to live in Colorado so bad?

I don't think I've ever heard of a Texan wanting to live someplace other than Texas.


Because having a political career as a Democrat in Texas is career suicide, but in the swing state of Colorado this isn't so. Democrats do very well in the state of Colorado. Colorado is projected to become more and more blue as the years go on. I know what is going to come from this post. Its going to go something like this: OP, why on earth don't you want to attend law school for the sole purpose of making $160K? I mean, there is nothing more important in life than making a lot of money in Big Law. Are you sure pursuing a law degree is the right path for you? Here it goes.......



Tom Joad wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:Living in Colorado is my main goal, which I have always known is going to be a very uphill battle.

155 unintentional pun.


Or maybe not.....my work experience in energy related fields should get me interviews in Colorado.

132 social awareness.



Followed by a million posts of advice about how your idea of what it took to get into Colorado / be a politician in Colorado was flawed, and suggestions, which you disregarded because you knew so much better, clearly.[/quote]

I heard and listened to all of the advice. I GET IT!!! GOING TO COLORADO WON'T BE EASY!!!! Just to set the record straight-- a person from Texas (Former Mayor Pena of Denver) took his UT Law degree and became a politician over there.

Columbia is super presitigious. I would pay sticker for that school. In all of those quotes, I wasn't dispensing advice to other people. Those were mostly my opinions. They weren't directed at another 0L.

I don't like Yale. That's great.

So, again, what is your point? I fail to see your point.

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Ruxin1
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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby Ruxin1 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm

Bizzy Gas Yourself

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bk1
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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:37 pm

Let's get this back on topic. That means 0Ls stop giving career advice to law students and law students stop shitting on 0Ls.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby bizzybone1313 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:38 pm

keg411 wrote:bizzy, I suggest you pick a new career. You have to be well-liked to get into politics.
Mal Reynolds wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:Bizzy is doing a great job winning the hearts and minds of this thread. I'm sure he will have no problem becoming a politician.


I am not trying to win these guys hearts and minds. These guys are parsing my words and creating drama out of nothing. I provide a minor suggestion of where this guy should apply to for a job and he throws a tantrum. I was just trying to be helpful. I didn't get anything out of providing this suggestion.


Well in order to be a politician you need to use every social encounter (even on the Internet) as practice in the political arena. You're doing a shit job right now.


keg411 wrote:bizzy, I suggest you pick a new career. You have to be well-liked to get into politics.


I have lots of friends on Facebook. :lol:. I am not trying to impress you guys. You guys are making me type too much. I am about to turn off my computer and go to Mexico. I am really going to Mexico. I didn't want to go, but I guess I will.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby NoodleyOne » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:39 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:
I have lots of friends on Facebook. :lol:. I am not trying to impress you guys. You guys are making me type too much. I am about to turn off my computer and go to Mexico. I am really going to Mexico. I didn't want to go, but I guess I will.

You have got to be kidding me.

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Danger Zone
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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby Danger Zone » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:39 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:
keg411 wrote:bizzy, I suggest you pick a new career. You have to be well-liked to get into politics.
Mal Reynolds wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:Bizzy is doing a great job winning the hearts and minds of this thread. I'm sure he will have no problem becoming a politician.


I am not trying to win these guys hearts and minds. These guys are parsing my words and creating drama out of nothing. I provide a minor suggestion of where this guy should apply to for a job and he throws a tantrum. I was just trying to be helpful. I didn't get anything out of providing this suggestion.


Well in order to be a politician you need to use every social encounter (even on the Internet) as practice in the political arena. You're doing a shit job right now.


keg411 wrote:bizzy, I suggest you pick a new career. You have to be well-liked to get into politics.


I have lots of friends on Facebook.

Sorry bk, but had to QFP this.

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presh
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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby presh » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:40 pm

Yo dude, that poster above you who wrote in red - that's a mod. Do what he says or get banned.

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bk1
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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:40 pm

Full stop. Weeklong bans from this point out for failure to stay on topic.

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cinephile
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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby cinephile » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:45 pm

On topic: at a girl's night out with a bunch of law students we played a game of truth or drink. And a question was addressed to the whole group--if you could do it all over again, would you still go to law school? Every single girl there said no. Also, we were all pretty drunk at that point, so, in vino veritas.

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Emma.
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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby Emma. » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:48 pm

cinephile wrote:On topic: at a girl's night out with a bunch of law students we played a game of truth or drink. And a question was addressed to the whole group--if you could do it all over again, would you still go to law school? Every single girl there said no. Also, we were all pretty drunk at that point, so, in vino veritas.


Image

Regrets. I haz them.

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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby rad lulz » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:07 pm

,
Last edited by rad lulz on Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LaBarrister
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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby LaBarrister » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:12 pm

cinephile wrote:On topic: at a girl's night out with a bunch of law students we played a game of truth or drink. And a question was addressed to the whole group--if you could do it all over again, would you still go to law school? Every single girl there said no. Also, we were all pretty drunk at that point, so, in vino veritas.


:cry:

Master Tofu
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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby Master Tofu » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:17 pm

Graduate.

I don't regret going to law school, with hind sight. Law school overall has been a great experience but I would only do it over at a certain cost/debt level.

Most folks view debt as a necessary cost of their investment in human capital. I would encourage 0Ls to view debt as a commitment to a certain type of work, as supposed to pure human capital. Let's face it, you all can go to law school for free if you want to - if you can't, you should retake the LSAT. You chose the higher ranked school for a better shot at certain employment outcomes.

If you take on 200k worth of debt expecting the whole amount to go away through PSLF, be aware that you've committed yourself to 120 months of public interest work. Similarly, if you commit to that debt expecting to service it to big firms, you've handcuffed yourself to the big firm practice, in most cases without an ounce of understanding as to what it entails.

Value flexibility.

I once saw this brilliant video (Red v. Blue) about tattoos:

X: Should you get, a tattoo.
Y: I think it's quite clear, that you should not get a tattoo. And I can sum up my points in this very elegant, but simple, bulleted list.

Number one: tattoos, are permanent.

Number two: you are a God damn idiot.

And I'd like to prove this mathematically if I may. Take your current age. Now subtract ten years from it. Were you smart back then? Of course you weren't. You were a God damn idiot.

Fact of the matter is, you're just as big an idiot today, it's just gonna take you ten more years to realize. Now think if you'd drawn a picture on your body ten years ago. Would you be happy with it today? Chances are, you wouldn't be.


Not to insinuate that anybody is an idiot, but the fact of the matter is you don't know what you will want to do in five years, once you have the benefit of age and experience. You don't know if the job that you are committing to today is the same job that you will still want to do five years later.

I advise everyone to guard the flexibility that they have jealously. There is nothing that you can't overcome with hard work and hustle - even the absence of a T14 degree. The risk of being unhappy is always worse than the risk of being unsuccessful.

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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby ragelion » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:15 am

Master Tofu wrote:Not to insinuate that anybody is an idiot, but the fact of the matter is you don't know what you will want to do in five years, once you have the benefit of age and experience. You don't know if the job that you are committing to today is the same job that you will still want to do five years later.

I advise everyone to guard the flexibility that they have jealously. There is nothing that you can't overcome with hard work and hustle - even the absence of a T14 degree. The risk of being unhappy is always worse than the risk of being unsuccessful.

Well, that was depressing.

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bk1
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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:26 am

Master Tofu wrote:Value flexibility.

Not to insinuate that anybody is an idiot, but the fact of the matter is you don't know what you will want to do in five years, once you have the benefit of age and experience. You don't know if the job that you are committing to today is the same job that you will still want to do five years later.

I advise everyone to guard the flexibility that they have jealously. There is nothing that you can't overcome with hard work and hustle - even the absence of a T14 degree. The risk of being unhappy is always worse than the risk of being unsuccessful.


Flexibility is important. But I think a focus on debt is looking at only one type of flexibility: economic flexibility. Since I'm lazy I'm just gonna repost something I said earlier (in this post, WUSTL = cheap option, NU = expensive):

bk1 wrote:But there are two types of flexibility. WUSTL gives you economic flexibility, the ability to take a low paying job and not be crushed by debt. NU gives you job flexibility and regional flexibility, the ability to choose from a wider range of legal jobs that are not really accessible to WUSTL students and be competitive in other markets (e.g. NY, SF, LA, etc) that WUSTL is not.


I also disagree with the idea that anything can be overcome with "hard work and hustle." That's objectively untrue. Because it's not true, just as there's a risk that down the road you will realize you don't want the golden handcuffs (including the debt taken on to go to a top school to get biglaw) and are fucked because of all your debt, there is also the risk that down the road you will realize you do want the golden handcuffs and are fucked because top 20% at a T20 doesn't get you biglaw no matter how little money you owe.

Debt may be a commitment to do a certain type of work, but going to a lower ranked school is also a commitment to do a certain type of work.

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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby bjsesq » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:29 am

bk1 wrote:I also disagree with the idea that anything can be overcome with "hard work and hustle."


This. Thisthisthisthisthisthis.

Master Tofu
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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby Master Tofu » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:20 am

bk1 wrote:But there are two types of flexibility. WUSTL gives you economic flexibility, the ability to take a low paying job and not be crushed by debt. NU gives you job flexibility and regional flexibility, the ability to choose from a wider range of legal jobs that are not really accessible to WUSTL students and be competitive in other markets (e.g. NY, SF, LA, etc) that WUSTL is not.


It seems to me that you're still talking about hiring in a large firm context when you talk about the job/geographic portability of your NU degree versus your WashU degree. Assume you take a NU degree or a WashU degree to a small or mid-sized firm in NY? Or a corporation in SF? Do you really think those employers care that much about USNWR rankings? Quite frankly, these employers will likely have little to no data to evaluate the graduates from either school. Even at large firms, the school/GPA filter is only relevant at the HR/screening interview level. Once you make it to the call-backs, nobody uses where you went to law school as a factor in their evaluation. Which is not to say that USNWR rank doesn't matter, it clearly does, but to illustrate how narrow a sector of the population that truly reads it and cares about it.

Admittedly, if you didn't go to T14, you won't have as great of a shot at clerking or fed honors and so understandably, folks who want to clerk for the SCOTUS will want to obtain the greenest shade of ivy possible under their belt. In you're in those shoes, ok, take the debt, go clerk (then work for a big firm) but understand the commitment that you're making.

This doesn't contradict my message - if you're convinced that debt enables you to do what you want to do, then do it. I am not saying never incur debt but only incur it when you're absolutely convinced that it is necessary and worthwhile because you're making a decision that will really impact your life-choices (from staying at your job to buying a house to having kids) for the next ten years. Most 0Ls are not in that position - most have no idea what they want to practice, where they want to live, what the practice constitutes, etc.

bk1 wrote:I also disagree with the idea that anything can be overcome with "hard work and hustle." That's objectively untrue. Because it's not true, just as there's a risk that down the road you will realize you don't want the golden handcuffs (including the debt taken on to go to a top school to get biglaw) and are fucked because of all your debt, there is also the risk that down the road you will realize you do want the golden handcuffs and are fucked because top 20% at a T20 doesn't get you biglaw no matter how little money you owe.


If you are debt-free, why are you so concerned about getting biglaw? With low debt, the world is your oyster. You can practice law. You can not practice law. You can figure out what you enjoy doing and be good at it. If there is anything that I am convinced of, it is that if you are good at what you do, you will get paid.

bjsesq wrote:
bk1 wrote:I also disagree with the idea that anything can be overcome with "hard work and hustle."


This. Thisthisthisthisthisthis.


I read your posts earlier in this thread so I hear your pain. Keep working at it. Go to networking events. Talk to people. Do informational interviews - people are very happy to talk about themselves, trust me. After you graduate, do pro-bono internships while you're job-searching. You haven't succeeded in finding a job yet but you also haven't even graduated yet. Let's not forget you still have to pass the bar. Just stay positive and keep working. Your route may be a tad longer, and a bit more stressful because of your debt, but things will work out.

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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby chadbrochill » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:22 am

.
Last edited by chadbrochill on Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:40 am

Master Tofu wrote:It seems to me that you're still talking about hiring in a large firm context when you talk about the job/geographic portability of your NU degree versus your WashU degree. Assume you take a NU degree or a WashU degree to a small or mid-sized firm in NY? Or a corporation in SF? Do you really think those employers care that much about USNWR rankings? Quite frankly, these employers will likely have little to no data to evaluate the graduates from either school. Even at large firms, the school/GPA filter is only relevant at the HR/screening interview level. Once you make it to the call-backs, nobody uses where you went to law school as a factor in their evaluation. Which is not to say that USNWR rank doesn't matter, it clearly does, but to illustrate how narrow a sector of the population that truly reads it and cares about it.

USNWR did not create prestige, it existed prior to any ranking system. Even if firms or corps don't know about individual USNWR ranks is not to say that they don't care about prestige. Law is a prestige obsessed field and I would bet my last dollar that a many corporations and non-biglaw firms care about prestige. Not to the extent that biglaw firms do, but it's not like it doesn't matter.

Master Tofu wrote:Admittedly, if you didn't go to T14, you won't have as great of a shot at clerking or fed honors and so understandably, folks who want to clerk for the SCOTUS will want to obtain the greenest shade of ivy possible under their belt. In you're in those shoes, ok, take the debt, go clerk (then work for a big firm) but understand the commitment that you're making.

You act like an insignificant amount of people would want to obtain these hard to get jobs. I'm not talking SCOTUS clerkship, I'm talking about things far more common such as AUSAs, law professors, etc. Many people would want these kinds of jobs and yet they are inaccessible to most law grads, based on both school prestige as well as work history (which is molded by school prestige).

Master Tofu wrote:This doesn't contradict my message - if you're convinced that debt enables you to do what you want to do, then do it. I am not saying never incur debt but only incur it when you're absolutely convinced that it is necessary and worthwhile because you're making a decision that will really impact your life-choices (from staying at your job to buying a house to having kids) for the next ten years. Most 0Ls are not in that position - most have no idea what they want to practice, where they want to live, what the practice constitutes, etc.

See that's the thing. Making the decision to go to a lower ranked school will really impact your life-choices for the next ten years as well. If you decide all of a sudden that you want to do megadeal M&A work, or you want to be an AUSA, or you want to go in-house at a big tech company, or whatever, the fact that you chose to go to a lower ranked school may make these things difficult if not impossible. I'm not making an argument about which is better, because honestly I think both have their pros and cons. But to claim that graduating without debt from a lower ranked school is some bastion of "freedom" is disingenuous to the reality of the job hunt that most people at lower ranked schools face.

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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby Master Tofu » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:14 am

I'll go line-by-line one last time and then I'll let this go - I think I've made the points I want to make.

bk1 wrote:USNWR did not create prestige, it existed prior to any ranking system. Even if firms or corps don't know about individual USNWR ranks is not to say that they don't care about prestige. Law is a prestige obsessed field and I would bet my last dollar that a many corporations and non-biglaw firms care about prestige. Not to the extent that biglaw firms do, but it's not like it doesn't matter.


It's not like we're comparing Harvard to Hofstra here. Are you really saying that people would value a NU degree that much over a WashU degree? The range of options that people are realistically considering limits this notion of a prestige gap that you're talking about.

bk1 wrote:You act like an insignificant amount of people would want to obtain these hard to get jobs. I'm not talking SCOTUS clerkship, I'm talking about things far more common such as AUSAs, law professors, etc. Many people would want these kinds of jobs and yet they are inaccessible to most law grads, based on both school prestige as well as work history (which is molded by school prestige).


Same concept applies... If you're committed to these jobs, then take the debt. I never said never incur debt but understand the commitment that you are making and the impact that it has.

bk1 wrote:See that's the thing. Making the decision to go to a lower ranked school will really impact your life-choices for the next ten years as well. If you decide all of a sudden that you want to do megadeal M&A work, or you want to be an AUSA, or you want to go in-house at a big tech company, or whatever, the fact that you chose to go to a lower ranked school may make these things difficult if not impossible. I'm not making an argument about which is better, because honestly I think both have their pros and cons. But to claim that graduating without debt from a lower ranked school is some bastion of "freedom" is disingenuous to the reality of the job hunt that most people at lower ranked schools face.


Life is not easy. It is difficult to find a job with no prior experience in a super-saturated profession. That is simple economics that most entering law students should be aware of at this point.

Given that most of the entering law students probably know little to nil about practicing law or whether they would enjoy the practice of law (I can't tell you how many lawyers I know who do not), preserving flexibility is a better strategy than to bet the house on landing a five year commitment at a big firm job that they may end up hating.

If you want to take the risk, then by all means do it. I'm all for you getting yours. Different boats, different strokes.

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Re: Do You Regret Going to Law School?

Postby portaprokoss » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:39 am

bk1 wrote:Let's get this back on topic. That means 0Ls stop giving career advice to law students and law students stop shitting on 0Ls.

bk1 wrote:Full stop. Weeklong bans from this point out for failure to stay on topic.

Bizzybone1313 has no self-awareness and is doodie 0L.

People without jobs just need to try harder and need to send out more apps and get off their lazy asses. Have you tried applying to a big 4 accounting firm? What about hustling? You just need to hustle.

Anybody interested in crowd-source-funding a Jimmy Buffet Boat Name Generator website? Like, you put in your birthday, and it spits out "Name your boat 'The Coral Reefer'." (most off-topic thing I could think of)

I'm trying to eliminate distractions through exams, so will you actually make the ban through May 9? Maybe some kind of IP block where I cannot even view the boards? Thaaaannkksss




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