Extroverts

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
LaBarrister
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Re: Extroverts

Postby LaBarrister » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:35 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:OP, describe your question using only words that are two syllables or less.

I will, however, allow the use of the word "syllables."


Okay. Here is my issue. BigLaw sounds horrend--bad. I get good grades in engineering. I am sociable. I work hard outside of the classroom and make a difference in people's lives. I have a lot of potential in a lot of things. But is going into BigLaw the only way that I can hope to make over $125,000.00 in law? If so, it is not worth it. I know I can do something else that will make me more money.

The only reason I ask is because I think patents are fascinating and I know I would love the work. But, again, even doing patent work for $50,000-$60,000 a year isn't worth it. I want something stimulating and challenging, but I don't want a BigLaw partner telling me how to tie my shoes for 8 years.

Does this make any sense at all?

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20130312
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Re: Extroverts

Postby 20130312 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:44 pm

LaBarrister wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:OP, describe your question using only words that are two syllables or less.

engineering.

Stopped reading here.

In all seriousness OP, the reason that big law is so revered on these boards is because 1) it's big money and 2) there's a (relatively) large number of jobs. By that, I mean legal jobs follow a bimodal salary distribution where you either are making a big law salary or less than $60k. There isn't much middle ground, and the jobs in the middle ground are some of the toughest to get. Bottom line is that you're always going to have someone to answer to (big law partner, some other boss, even running your own business you would have your clients and creditors). There are plenty of posters on this site that are happy with their jobs in big law.

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TatteredDignity
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Re: Extroverts

Postby TatteredDignity » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:47 pm

If you don't get better at succinctly explaining yourself in writing, you have a struggle ahead of you in law school/the legal field.

LaBarrister
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Re: Extroverts

Postby LaBarrister » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:54 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:
LaBarrister wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:OP, describe your question using only words that are two syllables or less.

engineering.

Stopped reading here.

In all seriousness OP, the reason that big law is so revered on these boards is because 1) it's big money and 2) there's a (relatively) large number of jobs. By that, I mean legal jobs follow a bimodal salary distribution where you either are making a big law salary or less than $60k. There isn't much middle ground, and the jobs in the middle ground are some of the toughest to get. Bottom line is that you're always going to have someone to answer to (big law partner, some other boss, even running your own business you would have your clients and creditors). There are plenty of posters on this site that are happy with their jobs in big law.


Okay, then let me ask this. Is there any sort of reasonable BigLaw job? I understand that many people are unreasonable, and that they therefore enjoy unreasonable things. For example, the president is unreasonable. I don't know how he does it, but he is a cog in a machine that never gets to eat or breathe without others on top of him. I don't want to live like that. I'm a reasonable person. From what I've heard, BigLaw is not reasonable.

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20130312
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Re: Extroverts

Postby 20130312 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:55 pm

As much as I want to post the picture from the last page here again, I'll play nice.

Define reasonable.

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Tom Joad
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Re: Extroverts

Postby Tom Joad » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:57 pm

Everybody I have met in secondary market biglaw seems super chill and loving life.

J90
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Re: Extroverts

Postby J90 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:07 pm

LaBarrister wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:
LaBarrister wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:OP, describe your question using only words that are two syllables or less.

engineering.

Stopped reading here.

In all seriousness OP, the reason that big law is so revered on these boards is because 1) it's big money and 2) there's a (relatively) large number of jobs. By that, I mean legal jobs follow a bimodal salary distribution where you either are making a big law salary or less than $60k. There isn't much middle ground, and the jobs in the middle ground are some of the toughest to get. Bottom line is that you're always going to have someone to answer to (big law partner, some other boss, even running your own business you would have your clients and creditors). There are plenty of posters on this site that are happy with their jobs in big law.


Okay, then let me ask this. Is there any sort of reasonable BigLaw job? I understand that many people are unreasonable, and that they therefore enjoy unreasonable things. For example, the president is unreasonable. I don't know how he does it, but he is a cog in a machine that never gets to eat or breathe without others on top of him. I don't want to live like that. I'm a reasonable person. From what I've heard, BigLaw is not reasonable.


The reason lawyers in big law make the money they do isn't just the quality of work - I'm sure there're many lawyers at lesser firms capable of a similar product at times - but the speed at which they can perform it. With big law, a client can say they want something at a given time and know it'll get completed, because that firm has people working around the clock. Whether or not you love to eat dinner and play board games from 6-9 p.m. doesn't matter, it's secondary to the flow of work. Don't imagine you're indispensable because there're plenty of other highly qualified, jobless lawyers willing to work as hard or harder than you for that pay.

This is not a 40 hour/week job. I'm not sure there's any $125k+/year paying legal job that's close to 40 hours per week, except for possibly a few government jobs. These jobs aren't easy to get, either - many certainly aren't any easier to get than big law, and some may likely need big law credentials to get in.

tl;dr Don't go into law school expecting a high-paying, cushy job with good hours and "rewarding" work. You'll have to sacrifice a couple of those adjectives along the way.

LaBarrister
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Re: Extroverts

Postby LaBarrister » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:10 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:As much as I want to post the picture from the last page here again, I'll play nice.

Define reasonable.


Thank you. I feel like we just bonded there, but maybe that's going a bit too far.

I'm sorry, here. But I don't have any quotes, or even anecdotes to prove my point. I know what I've read, and I have used that to create a sense of what BigLaw is in general. Again, this is very weak, I know. But it just seems that BigLaw partners are wretched old men and they just want to use their associates to make money for the firm over showing camaraderie and professionalism. I mean... it is a "profession". It's a league, and group, and elite... etc. But I think part of that should rise about dollars and be about growing as people and also making money. When I read stories about all of the BigLaw associates who get laid off because there are only so many spots and partner and you either become partner or you get the can, well, that just sounds unreasonable.

Okay, I went and found some things to share just so you all wouldn't hate me for wasting your time by being vague. (I don't like vague people, either, honestly.)

Three Posts From JD Underground that Scared Me:

(1)
"Reading your post makes me oh-so-happy to be out of that line of work where leaving at 6:30 and prioritizing anything outside of the 55 hour work week is frowned upon. Bullshit. You'll never get these portions of your life back. Now I have a growing family and the time to enjoy them. I liked lawyering, but big law can go fuck itself. Most unhappy upper middle class cohort I've ever had the displeasure of being part of. I suppose if I were still active I'd have run for judge this year."

(2)
"In ordinary economic times, the vast majority of junior associates who get fired just clearly don't get it or can't cut it. "Don't get it" people fall into a few categories. Arrogance (junior BIGLAW requires humility), gross lack of professional polish, or failure to be the schedule (facetime till 8 pm M-Th, availability all hours of nights and weekends). Can't cut it is just not smart or verbal enough, or careful enough.

"By your middle years, moderate incompetence singles people out, as does lack of partner sponsorship, bad choice of practice group propelling bad hours ... but also mercy killings. Some extremely smart and hardworking just aren't wired right for BIGLAW partnership and a lot of people feel that firing them is better than letting them keep killing themselves to meet hour quotas with passable work."

(3)
"That said, you still have to do something fairly egregious, in my experience, to get fired before you are a 4th year or so. After that people get cut all the time because there just aren't enough partnership slots. You only need to many senior associates (though good senior associates, ones who have a chance to make partner, are worth their weight in gold.)"

Okay, so in (1) and (2), I don't like how staying at the firm until 8:00p.m., four days a week in one example, seems to be... the norm? Even worse, you leave before 6:00 to go spend time with your family and friends, and you get looked down upon? As if that is something to look down upon. This just paints a bad picture of the sort of people who it seems you will need to be pleasing.

In (3), I really didn't like that, even if you are smart, work hard, and are sociable, you may still get the boot just because there are only so many slots to fill are partner in a BigLaw firm. WTF? Really? After all those years of hard work and sacrifice, and you just boot them out because there aren't enough slots to become partner? That sounds unreasonable. I could only hope that lateral transfer is a breeze, but I doubt that.

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stillwater
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Re: Extroverts

Postby stillwater » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:13 pm

LaBarrister wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:As much as I want to post the picture from the last page here again, I'll play nice.

Define reasonable.


Thank you. I feel like we just bonded there, but maybe that's going a bit too far.

I'm sorry, here. But I don't have any quotes, or even anecdotes to prove my point. I know what I've read, and I have used that to create a sense of what BigLaw is in general. Again, this is very weak, I know. But it just seems that BigLaw partners are wretched old men and they just want to use their associates to make money for the firm over showing camaraderie and professionalism. I mean... it is a "profession". It's a league, and group, and elite... etc. But I think part of that should rise about dollars and be about growing as people and also making money. When I read stories about all of the BigLaw associates who get laid off because there are only so many spots and partner and you either become partner or you get the can, well, that just sounds unreasonable.

Okay, I went and found some things to share just so you all wouldn't hate me for wasting your time by being vague. (I don't like vague people, either, honestly.)

Three Posts From JD Underground that Scared Me:

(1)
"Reading your post makes me oh-so-happy to be out of that line of work where leaving at 6:30 and prioritizing anything outside of the 55 hour work week is frowned upon. Bullshit. You'll never get these portions of your life back. Now I have a growing family and the time to enjoy them. I liked lawyering, but big law can go fuck itself. Most unhappy upper middle class cohort I've ever had the displeasure of being part of. I suppose if I were still active I'd have run for judge this year."

(2)
"In ordinary economic times, the vast majority of junior associates who get fired just clearly don't get it or can't cut it. "Don't get it" people fall into a few categories. Arrogance (junior BIGLAW requires humility), gross lack of professional polish, or failure to be the schedule (facetime till 8 pm M-Th, availability all hours of nights and weekends). Can't cut it is just not smart or verbal enough, or careful enough.

"By your middle years, moderate incompetence singles people out, as does lack of partner sponsorship, bad choice of practice group propelling bad hours ... but also mercy killings. Some extremely smart and hardworking just aren't wired right for BIGLAW partnership and a lot of people feel that firing them is better than letting them keep killing themselves to meet hour quotas with passable work."

(3)
"That said, you still have to do something fairly egregious, in my experience, to get fired before you are a 4th year or so. After that people get cut all the time because there just aren't enough partnership slots. You only need to many senior associates (though good senior associates, ones who have a chance to make partner, are worth their weight in gold.)"

Okay, so in (1) and (2), I don't like how staying at the firm until 8:00p.m., four days a week in one example, seems to be... the norm? Even worse, you leave before 6:00 to go spend time with your family and friends, and you get looked down upon? As if that is something to look down upon. This just paints a bad picture of the sort of people who it seems you will need to be pleasing.

In (3), I really didn't like that, even if you are smart, work hard, and are sociable, you may still get the boot just because there are only so many slots to fill are partner in a BigLaw firm. WTF? Really? After all those years of hard work and sacrifice, and you just boot them out because there aren't enough slots to become partner? That sounds unreasonable. I could only hope that lateral transfer is a breeze, but I doubt that.


Brevity is the soul of wit (and I am not using this ironically).

LaBarrister
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Re: Extroverts

Postby LaBarrister » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:16 pm

"The reason lawyers in big law make the money they do isn't just the quality of work - I'm sure there're many lawyers at lesser firms capable of a similar product at times - but the speed at which they can perform it. With big law, a client can say they want something at a given time and know it'll get completed, because that firm has people working around the clock. Whether or not you love to eat dinner and play board games from 6-9 p.m. doesn't matter, it's secondary to the flow of work. Don't imagine you're indispensable because there're plenty of other highly qualified, jobless lawyers willing to work as hard or harder than you for that pay.

This is not a 40 hour/week job. I'm not sure there's any $125k+/year paying legal job that's close to 40 hours per week, except for possibly a few government jobs. These jobs aren't easy to get, either - many certainly aren't any easier to get than big law, and some may likely need big law credentials to get in.

tl;dr Don't go into law school expecting a high-paying, cushy job with good hours and "rewarding" work. You'll have to sacrifice a couple of those adjectives along the way."


Why do so many medical professionals seem to have the best salary/hours worked? What did they do to deserve that more than lawyers? Pharmacists, dentists, work on average around 40 hours per week, get on average over $100,000.00 per year, and enjoy not only great benefits but great job security. I mean, what the hell? I could go to pharmacy school to get with a program like that. But I want to do law, and I want to know if there are similarly beneficial jobs like these in law. If not, like you say, then maybe to hell with it all.

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20130312
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Re: Extroverts

Postby 20130312 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:22 pm

Are you seeking advice or did you just want to whine and groan about dentists? Not really sure what you are looking for here.

LaBarrister
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Re: Extroverts

Postby LaBarrister » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:22 pm

Going to watch Macbeth. See, I have a life!

Thank you all for your posts so far. I really appreciate the serious ones. I am looking for help.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Extroverts

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:29 pm

LaBarrister wrote:Why do so many medical professionals seem to have the best salary/hours worked? What did they do to deserve that more than lawyers? Pharmacists, dentists, work on average around 40 hours per week, get on average over $100,000.00 per year, and enjoy not only great benefits but great job security. I mean, what the hell? I could go to pharmacy school to get with a program like that. But I want to do law, and I want to know if there are similarly beneficial jobs like these in law. If not, like you say, then maybe to hell with it all.

Because they do? It is what it is - it's not going to change, so either take a job you don't like with conditions that you do, or a job that you do like with conditions that you don't. As for what anybody deserves - well, do pharmacists and dentists really occupy the same societal role as lawyers? Aren't doctors more analogous, and aren't their situations closer to that of lawyers? (Greater job security, probably, but higher barriers to entry.)

(Also, It is possible to make $100K and work reasonable hours in government jobs, although not to start. But as I once saw quoted somewhere: "Make money. Love your job. Stay within the law: Pick any two of the three.")
Last edited by A. Nony Mouse on Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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paratactical
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Re: Extroverts

Postby paratactical » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:52 pm

LaBarrister, the answer to these questions depends on whether or not you can get into HYS. What's your UGPA and have you taken a practice LSAT?

LaBarrister
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Re: Extroverts

Postby LaBarrister » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:41 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
LaBarrister wrote:Why do so many medical professionals seem to have the best salary/hours worked? What did they do to deserve that more than lawyers? Pharmacists, dentists, work on average around 40 hours per week, get on average over $100,000.00 per year, and enjoy not only great benefits but great job security. I mean, what the hell? I could go to pharmacy school to get with a program like that. But I want to do law, and I want to know if there are similarly beneficial jobs like these in law. If not, like you say, then maybe to hell with it all.

Because they do? It is what it is - it's not going to change, so either take a job you don't like with conditions that you do, or a job that you don't like with conditions that you do. As for what anybody deserves - well, do pharmacists and dentists really occupy the same societal role as lawyers? Aren't doctors more analogous, and aren't their situations closer to that of lawyers? (Greater job security, probably, but higher barriers to entry.)

(Also, It is possible to make $100K and work reasonable hours in government jobs, although not to start. But as I once saw quoted somewhere: "Make money. Love your job. Stay within the law: Pick any two of the three.")


I heard a similar quote in undergrad about choose 2 from sleep, social life, and A's. I strove to overcome that and did. Anyway, I'll take your advice with a grain of salt and do my best to make the best decision for myself.

Thanks to all, again.

RodneyRuxin
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Re: Extroverts

Postby RodneyRuxin » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:49 am

OP: I hope you never go to my school and I hope I never meet you. Ever.

And if I can tell that after reading a short thread; an interviewing atty will be able to tell in 10 seconds.

Find a different profession, don't muck up ours.

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cinephile
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Re: Extroverts

Postby cinephile » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:04 pm

I'm going to answer your original question:

If you're really an extrovert, I imagine biglaw would be difficult, particularly in the first few years. How many hours can you work alone at your desk just doing due diligence or legal research or writing? If you can get by for hours and hours on end without going crazy because you need human contact, then you might not be an extrovert but this job is for you. My experience from my 1L summer job taught me that I need too much interaction to sit at a desk and do this kind of work all day every day.

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howlery
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Re: Extroverts

Postby howlery » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:53 pm

cinephile wrote:I'm going to answer your original question:

If you're really an extrovert, I imagine biglaw would be difficult, particularly in the first few years. How many hours can you work alone at your desk just doing due diligence or legal research or writing? If you can get by for hours and hours on end without going crazy because you need human contact, then you might not be an extrovert but this job is for you. My experience from my 1L summer job taught me that I need too much interaction to sit at a desk and do this kind of work all day every day.


Not to hijack whatever this thread was, but is this really what biglaw is like? I've read that extroverts tend to do better because of networking and shmoozing, being able to bring in business etc. whereas introverts think they can make partner by isolating themselves and working on their product (which apparently doesn't work?).

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cinephile
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Re: Extroverts

Postby cinephile » Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:09 pm

howlery wrote:
cinephile wrote:I'm going to answer your original question:

If you're really an extrovert, I imagine biglaw would be difficult, particularly in the first few years. How many hours can you work alone at your desk just doing due diligence or legal research or writing? If you can get by for hours and hours on end without going crazy because you need human contact, then you might not be an extrovert but this job is for you. My experience from my 1L summer job taught me that I need too much interaction to sit at a desk and do this kind of work all day every day.


Not to hijack whatever this thread was, but is this really what biglaw is like? I've read that extroverts tend to do better because of networking and shmoozing, being able to bring in business etc. whereas introverts think they can make partner by isolating themselves and working on their product (which apparently doesn't work?).


I have no idea what it's like later down the line, but if you're really junior and just doing document review it is mind-numbingly boring, especially if you need lots of human interaction to focus. If I don't have people around me, I can't focus, and then my work product is terrible.

But yeah, I'm sure being extroverted will help later on with bringing in business. But if you can't make it past the first few months because it's driving you absolutely crazy, then you'll never get to that point.

BigZuck
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Re: Extroverts

Postby BigZuck » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:18 pm

Tom Joad wrote:
stillwater wrote:
hume85 wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:Image

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seahawk32
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Re: Extroverts

Postby seahawk32 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:03 pm

I think we can, with reasonable certainty, draw the following conclusions:


1. OP has a question.
2. OP wants us to answer that question.
3. OP cannot clearly express that question using the English language.


In my opinion, this is the closest estimation of what OP is asking:

empyreanrrv wrote:OP wants to know if he should go into law and litigation because he is a good student and extroverted and wants a high salary.



If I'm right, OP, let me know. We can go from there.

LaBarrister
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Re: Extroverts

Postby LaBarrister » Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:30 am

cinephile wrote:I'm going to answer your original question:

If you're really an extrovert, I imagine biglaw would be difficult, particularly in the first few years. How many hours can you work alone at your desk just doing due diligence or legal research or writing? If you can get by for hours and hours on end without going crazy because you need human contact, then you might not be an extrovert but this job is for you. My experience from my 1L summer job taught me that I need too much interaction to sit at a desk and do this kind of work all day every day.


I go by for hours on end doing programming and studying Literature on a daily basis. What, do you think I make straight A's in chemical engineering because I'm smart? No. I work my ass off. The thought that someone who is extroverted cannot sit alone and enjoy time with himself is dumb. Personalities are not that black and white. I know that I am extroverted. I do great in groups and at parties, and I like being the center of attention and making people laugh. But I like myself enough to enjoy my own company, and I am a very hard worker.

Yes, of course I can sit like that for hours. Don't insult my intelligence by thinking I didn't know lawyers had to do this.

LaBarrister
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Re: Extroverts

Postby LaBarrister » Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:33 am

howlery wrote:
cinephile wrote:I'm going to answer your original question:

If you're really an extrovert, I imagine biglaw would be difficult, particularly in the first few years. How many hours can you work alone at your desk just doing due diligence or legal research or writing? If you can get by for hours and hours on end without going crazy because you need human contact, then you might not be an extrovert but this job is for you. My experience from my 1L summer job taught me that I need too much interaction to sit at a desk and do this kind of work all day every day.


Not to hijack whatever this thread was, but is this really what biglaw is like? I've read that extroverts tend to do better because of networking and shmoozing, being able to bring in business etc. whereas introverts think they can make partner by isolating themselves and working on their product (which apparently doesn't work?).


This was my idea. Anyone can work his ass of for hours on end. But the real cream of the crop must be able to persuade people, connect with them, and build contacts through networking--it doesn't matter what field you're in, this should always be on the agenda. Thank you for pointing out the obvious to Mr. KnowItAll lol

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TatteredDignity
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Re: Extroverts

Postby TatteredDignity » Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:45 am

LaBarrister wrote:Don't insult my intelligence by thinking I didn't know lawyers had to do this.


LaBarrister wrote:Thank you for pointing out the obvious to Mr. KnowItAll lol


You've probably had your ass kicked a lot, huh?

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howlery
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Re: Extroverts

Postby howlery » Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:47 am

LaBarrister wrote:
howlery wrote:
cinephile wrote:I'm going to answer your original question:

If you're really an extrovert, I imagine biglaw would be difficult, particularly in the first few years. How many hours can you work alone at your desk just doing due diligence or legal research or writing? If you can get by for hours and hours on end without going crazy because you need human contact, then you might not be an extrovert but this job is for you. My experience from my 1L summer job taught me that I need too much interaction to sit at a desk and do this kind of work all day every day.


Not to hijack whatever this thread was, but is this really what biglaw is like? I've read that extroverts tend to do better because of networking and shmoozing, being able to bring in business etc. whereas introverts think they can make partner by isolating themselves and working on their product (which apparently doesn't work?).


This was my idea. Anyone can work his ass of for hours on end. But the real cream of the crop must be able to persuade people, connect with them, and build contacts through networking--it doesn't matter what field you're in, this should always be on the agenda. Thank you for pointing out the obvious to Mr. KnowItAll lol


Well, to be fair, we're both 0Ls and cinephile has at least worked in biglaw as a 1L SA. She also qualified that at senior levels one's extroversion could be a benefit.




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