Aren't most attorneys doing well by "most" standards?

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TheGreatFish
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Re: Aren't most attorneys doing well by "most" standards?

Postby TheGreatFish » Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:36 am

ajax adonis wrote:Yes, because her attorney friends who graduated 10+ years ago are going to be so in tune with what it's like to be a new grad looking for an entry-level job.


A practicing attorney is going to have a better view of the current job market than a 1L relating anecdotes he read on a message board.

Your attorney friends could probably tell you if their offices are regularly hiring new grads and give you some idea of the salary you would be earning. They can also tell you if they're getting swamped with resumes from attorneys who have been licensed for a year or more and still haven't found employment.

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dingbat
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Re: Aren't most attorneys doing well by "most" standards?

Postby dingbat » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:24 am

TheGreatFish wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:Yes, because her attorney friends who graduated 10+ years ago are going to be so in tune with what it's like to be a new grad looking for an entry-level job.


A practicing attorney is going to have a better view of the current job market than a 1L relating anecdotes he read on a message board.

Your attorney friends could probably tell you if their offices are regularly hiring new grads and give you some idea of the salary you would be earning. They can also tell you if they're getting swamped with resumes from attorneys who have been licensed for a year or more and still haven't found employment.

No, they can tell you what hiring and starting salary is like at their office only. Thing is, even the firms with the biggest hiring classes are still just a drop in the bucket considering how many students there are in law schools across the country.
A better source would be things like the NLJ250 list, which shows how many students from each school are hired by the 250 largest law firms, or Law School Transparency, which compiles school reported employment statistics, showing that only 11 law schools are able to get 4 out of every 5 students a job (any job) as a lawyer. Here's something to think about:

At all but 15 schools more than 1 out of every 4 students can't get a job as a lawyer
at 18 schools no more than 1 out of every 3 students is able to get a job
at only slightly more than half (104/198) of all law schools do more than half of all students get jobs

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reasonable_man
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Re: Aren't most attorneys doing well by "most" standards?

Postby reasonable_man » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:34 am

thesealocust wrote:Every year roughly 50,000 people graduate from law school.

Every year roughly 30,000 entry level legal jobs exist.

The employment rate for lawyers is tautologically high: people who stop being lawyers, or never become lawyers, aren't counted...


and

dingbat wrote:At all but 15 schools more than 1 out of every 4 students can't get a job as a lawyer
at 18 schools no more than 1 out of every 3 students is able to get a job
at only slightly more than half (104/198) of all law schools do more than half of all students get jobs



This is it in a nutshell. As sealocust points out, there are about 20,000 law grads each year that fall by the wayside and never seem to make it into the "lawyer club."

The "lawyer club" is comprised of the people that graduated and found a job at a somewhat well-regarded firm (or good gov't / PI job) right out of law school (or within about 6 months therof). If you don't get into the "lawyer club" things get ugly really really fast. The thing about the "lawyer club" (and I say this as a card-carrying member), is that everyone in it knows that the club can only be so large and the members will do whatever it takes to protect the current members (i.e. exclude those that did not gain admission to the club during the correct time period following LS graduation). We (the club members) all know that our ability to change jobs, continue getting raises and demand some perks all hinges on the fact that supply cannot be permitted to increase without checks. With 20,000 "extra" lawyers hanging around each year, that means making for damn sure that those extra lawyers don't accidentally sneak into the club after the correct enrollment period.

Op, you say you don't know any poor lawyers. I know lots of them. They are the ones that didn't get into the club and sadly, many of them (despite being licensed and holding a JD), do not even bother to aspire to legal employment after a certain point in time. Its pretty fucking sad actually.
Last edited by reasonable_man on Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Aren't most attorneys doing well by "most" standards?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:38 am

Even with the above, remember that I lot of things counted as "jobs" are unpaid (i.e. "working" full time as a DA and not being compensated at all for it). It's counted as a full time, long time job, with no compensation. This makes things worse.

A start on fixing that issue would be to report how many people reported their salaries in every subcategory and not just private practice. If a salary is not reported, it could very well be $0 even if the job title sounds as though the person would be paid for that type of work.

utlaw2007
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Re: Aren't most attorneys doing well by "most" standards?

Postby utlaw2007 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:01 am

reasonable_man wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Every year roughly 50,000 people graduate from law school.

Every year roughly 30,000 entry level legal jobs exist.

The employment rate for lawyers is tautologically high: people who stop being lawyers, or never become lawyers, aren't counted...


and

dingbat wrote:At all but 15 schools more than 1 out of every 4 students can't get a job as a lawyer
at 18 schools no more than 1 out of every 3 students is able to get a job
at only slightly more than half (104/198) of all law schools do more than half of all students get jobs



This is it in a nutshell. As sealocust points out, there are about 20,000 law grads each year that fall by the wayside and never seem to make it into the "lawyer club."

The "lawyer club" is comprised of the people that graduated and found a job at a somewhat well-regarded firm (or good gov't / PI job) right out of law school (or within about 6 months therof). If you don't get into the "lawyer club" things get ugly really really fast. The thing about the "lawyer club" (and I say this as a card-carrying member), is that everyone in it knows that the club can only be so large and the members will do whatever it takes to protect the current members (i.e. exclude those that did not gain admission to the club during the correct time period following LS graduation). We (the club members) all know that our ability to change jobs, continue getting raises and demand some perks all hinges on the fact that supply cannot be permitted to increase without checks. With 20,000 "extra" lawyers hanging around each year, that means making for damn sure that those extra lawyers don't accidentally sneak into the club after the correct enrollment period.

Op, you say you don't know any poor lawyers. I know lots of them. They are the ones that didn't get into the club and sadly, many of them (despite being licensed and holding a JD), do not even bother to aspire to legal employment after a certain point in time. Its pretty fucking sad actually.


This is very true. And this is true for plaintiff's firm owners. I own a plaintiffs firm. No solo gets acknowledged if he/she is not the real deal. It's amazing how some solo's get cases and others don't. That's not by accident.

And many of those successful solo's grow into actual small law firms that hire lawyers into the firm.

I find that most successful solo's are those who wanted to go solo in the first place because of their business acumen. They see ridiculous dollar signs, especially in proportion to hours worked, and know how to get them. Many of those that have to go solo because they have no choice usually don't fare too well.

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Icculus
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Re: Aren't most attorneys doing well by "most" standards?

Postby Icculus » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:13 am

ajax adonis wrote:
luckylady wrote:Thank you all for your insights. I guess I'm wondering if the outlook is so bad, why are you all doing it?


Because my old self didn't listen to people who were like my current self.


It's amazing what law school/TLS does to a person. I sometimes need to remind myself of this when dealing with 0Ls.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Aren't most attorneys doing well by "most" standards?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:54 am

luckylady wrote:Thank you all for your insights. I guess I'm wondering if the outlook is so bad, why are you all doing it?

Ha! Good question. I did it because I thought it was work I would enjoy and find meaningful. I figured I'd be okay with a $60K job, and that's what I got (I went to a relatively cheap school, I have an employed spouse, and no kids/plans for kids. I still have plenty of debt, but I'm shooting for PSLF).

rad lulz
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Re: Aren't most attorneys doing well by "most" standards?

Postby rad lulz » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:08 pm

luckylady wrote:Thank you all for your insights. I guess I'm wondering if the outlook is so bad, why are you all doing it?

If the statistics that are available now were available when I decided to go in 2009, I probably wouldn't have gone.

lukertin
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Re: Aren't most attorneys doing well by "most" standards?

Postby lukertin » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:10 pm

poor lawyers stop being lawyers. why would you stay working in a profession when it doesn't feed you?

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thesealocust
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Re: Aren't most attorneys doing well by "most" standards?

Postby thesealocust » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:13 pm

rad lulz wrote:
luckylady wrote:Thank you all for your insights. I guess I'm wondering if the outlook is so bad, why are you all doing it?

If the statistics that are available now were available when I decided to go in 2009, I probably wouldn't have gone.


Ahhhh 2009. Back then, the concern was the "bimodal salary" - people could dig through the stats and prove that big law wasn't AS common as schools were arguing, but I don't remember any sincere concerns about unemployment. How things have changed...

rad lulz
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Re: Aren't most attorneys doing well by "most" standards?

Postby rad lulz » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:27 pm

thesealocust wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
luckylady wrote:Thank you all for your insights. I guess I'm wondering if the outlook is so bad, why are you all doing it?

If the statistics that are available now were available when I decided to go in 2009, I probably wouldn't have gone.


Ahhhh 2009. Back then, the concern was the "bimodal salary" - people could dig through the stats and prove that big law wasn't AS common as schools were arguing, but I don't remember any sincere concerns about unemployment. How things have changed...

This. We knew NYLS and Golden Gate were shitty ideas, but the refrain was "T14 (and maybe UCLA/UT/Vandy/USC) or strong regional with some cash."

Now we can see that a lot of "strong regionals" may only give like a 60% shot at ANY job and going to UT/UCLA/Vandy/USC/GULC for a 66%-75% shot needs SERIOUS subsidization via scholarship to make it worthwhile.

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Bikeflip
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Re: Aren't most attorneys doing well by "most" standards?

Postby Bikeflip » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:57 pm

rad lulz wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
rad lulz wrote:If the statistics that are available now were available when I decided to go in 2009, I probably wouldn't have gone.


Ahhhh 2009. Back then, the concern was the "bimodal salary" - people could dig through the stats and prove that big law wasn't AS common as schools were arguing, but I don't remember any sincere concerns about unemployment. How things have changed...

This. We knew NYLS and Golden Gate were shitty ideas, but the refrain was "T14 (and maybe UCLA/UT/Vandy/USC) or strong regional with some cash."

Now we can see that a lot of "strong regionals" may only give like a 60% shot at ANY job and going to UT/UCLA/Vandy/USC/GULC for a 66%-75% shot needs SERIOUS subsidization via scholarship to make it worthwhile.



This. In addition to the blogs listed above, lawschooltransparency's done a decent job of allowing people to see behind the veil. When 0Ls ask what I think about law school and which schools I would recommend, I steer them there.

Even then, we still don't really have any sizable data about the expected career trajectory of the classes of 2009-2016, or at least I haven't seen the data.

beautyistruth
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Re: Aren't most attorneys doing well by "most" standards?

Postby beautyistruth » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:55 am

rad lulz wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
luckylady wrote:Thank you all for your insights. I guess I'm wondering if the outlook is so bad, why are you all doing it?

If the statistics that are available now were available when I decided to go in 2009, I probably wouldn't have gone.


Ahhhh 2009. Back then, the concern was the "bimodal salary" - people could dig through the stats and prove that big law wasn't AS common as schools were arguing, but I don't remember any sincere concerns about unemployment. How things have changed...

This. We knew NYLS and Golden Gate were shitty ideas, but the refrain was "T14 (and maybe UCLA/UT/Vandy/USC) or strong regional with some cash."

Now we can see that a lot of "strong regionals" may only give like a 60% shot at ANY job and going to UT/UCLA/Vandy/USC/GULC for a 66%-75% shot needs SERIOUS subsidization via scholarship to make it worthwhile.


So, is it that things have actually been getting worse since 2009, or that everybody is more aware of the situation now?

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reasonable_man
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Re: Aren't most attorneys doing well by "most" standards?

Postby reasonable_man » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:01 am

Things were getting bad long before 2009. It accelerated in '09 and has steadily gotten worse and worse year over year.




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