Question on biglaw exit options

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Question on biglaw exit options

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:05 pm

scifiguy wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:The legal academic market is terrible and has been terrible for a while. Except in fields where there are legitimately better industry options (engineering/certain sciences, and oddly, education), all academic markets have been abysmal for generations.

But I don't think you can really use the legal academic market to say very much about the general legal market - because academia anywhere is very very very very competitive, and has been that competitive for longer than the current law employment crisis. And I think it's always been the case that someone who guns for academia, and who has "academia!!!!" written all over their resume, has never been especially appealing to a firm. Unless perhaps pre-academia - you know, go to the firm, get in their 3-5 years, then happily sail off to academia. But having tried to do academia and coming back?I don't think that was ever a very viable career path.

Now, the law employment crisis doesn't help, because as applications tank, law schools will have to cut back/close. And people who don't get academia will have an even harder time getting other jobs because there are fewer of them. But very few people go into academia in the best of times, and I don't think the fact that this group is getting even smaller is the biggest thing to be worrying about in terms of the legal job market.


I may be wrong, but I was under the mipression Campos was saying that people without biglaw exit options are taking on academic VAP positions.

And, from there, they are unable to get back into biglaw, nor move into permanent academia.

But the concern was that even people with HYS JD's, federal clerkships, and also several years of biglaw cannot find good exit options.

No, he's talking about legal academic hiring, and he's saying that people who want academic positions leave their biglaw jobs (voluntarily) for academic VAP positions, to try to get into a permanent academic position. (It is very very very common to have to do at least one VAP before getting a tenure-track job.) The problem is that if you then can't get the permanent academic job, you can't go back to biglaw, either. He's not saying that people who get pushed out of biglaw are taking VAPs as backups (VAPs are not fallbacks for anyone who has not actually been gunning for academia because you have to have a convincing academic agenda, which isn't something you can make up on the spot if you lose a biglaw job) .

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scifiguy
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Re: Question on biglaw exit options

Postby scifiguy » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:18 pm

Yeah, that's the sense too, A. nony mouse, I got when I re-read Campos' post (just before seeing your post above). Thanks for the clarification.

I think the lesson is be VERY VERY cautious about VAP positions. You could end up unemployed with no job prospects afterwards even with stellar credentials (such as HYS, fed. clerkship, and several years biglaw). ...That's pretty sad still.

One guy in the thread said many people with BA's are making more than he is and he'll be jobless soon. Just sad.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Question on biglaw exit options

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:38 pm

scifiguy wrote:Yeah, that's the sense too, A. nony mouse, I got when I re-read Campos' post (just before seeing your post above). Thanks for the clarification.

I think the lesson is be VERY VERY cautious about VAP positions. You could end up unemployed with no job prospects afterwards even with stellar credentials (such as HYS, fed. clerkship, and several years biglaw). ...That's pretty sad still.

One guy in the thread said many people with BA's are making more than he is and he'll be jobless soon. Just sad.

Well, really, the lesson is be very very very cautious about aiming for legal academia, period. VAP positions are a means to get academia, not an end in themselves. But I think that lesson's been around for a while - it's just getting worse now (like everything).

09042014
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Re: Question on biglaw exit options

Postby 09042014 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:51 pm

Fellowships and VAPs seem so fucking risky. I'm shocked anyone attemps. I know a guy who did a fellowiship, had amazing grades, and ::plunk:: has no job after he got dinged fehged at the academic career search thingie.

Does having a real job actually hurt your chances at academia.

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thesealocust
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Re: Question on biglaw exit options

Postby thesealocust » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:17 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Fellowships and VAPs seem so fucking risky. I'm shocked anyone attemps. I know a guy who did a fellowiship, had amazing grades, and ::plunk:: has no job after he got dinged fehged at the academic career search thingie.

Does having a real job actually hurt your chances at academia.


Of course. A year or two can be forgivable, or for special scenarios (corporate law teaching, etc.)

09042014
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Re: Question on biglaw exit options

Postby 09042014 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:18 pm

thesealocust wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Fellowships and VAPs seem so fucking risky. I'm shocked anyone attemps. I know a guy who did a fellowiship, had amazing grades, and ::plunk:: has no job after he got dinged fehged at the academic career search thingie.

Does having a real job actually hurt your chances at academia.


Of course. A year or two can be forgivable, or for special scenarios (corporate law teaching, etc.)


Damn, academic shitboomers are nuts. They make you burn your ship upon arrival.

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Yukos
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Re: Question on biglaw exit options

Postby Yukos » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:51 am

Desert Fox wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Fellowships and VAPs seem so fucking risky. I'm shocked anyone attemps. I know a guy who did a fellowiship, had amazing grades, and ::plunk:: has no job after he got dinged fehged at the academic career search thingie.

Does having a real job actually hurt your chances at academia.


Of course. A year or two can be forgivable, or for special scenarios (corporate law teaching, etc.)


Damn, academic shitboomers are nuts. They make you burn your ship upon arrival.


Yeah people have complained for a long time that for some reason professional experience (beyond an invisible line, something like 3-5 years) disqualifies you for tenure track positions. This is for pretty much all departments (though it makes even less sense in law since they're teaching professional courses...).

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scifiguy
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Re: Question on biglaw exit options

Postby scifiguy » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:22 pm

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Rahviveh
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Re: Question on biglaw exit options

Postby Rahviveh » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:01 pm

thesealocust wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:If you miss out on the in-house boat what kind of salary can you expect from lateralling to a midlaw or boutique firm, especially if you're doing lit? Or where can I find this info? TYIA


It varies a lot, and there's no solid info. For some "the in-house boat" is what they do when they miss lateraling to midlaw or a boutique firm. Things get very varied, very individualized, and very geography/practice area dependent once you have started.


Sorry to bump this old thread, but I've been reading more threads on TLS about this topic. If you lateral to another firm doesn't that mean your lifestyle will be still be shit and you're still a slave to the billable hour? Or do mid-law firms offer lighter schedules? Obviously government is another option but like you said that's hyper competitive.

It seems transactional attorneys have it best if you want a good lifestyle after biglaw.

Thanks again for the thoughts guys.




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