Harvard 3L taking questions over Christmas break

[DoubleChecks]

Well, I've been away from these boards for quite a while, but had some time to kill over the break so decided to start this thread for those that are interested/recently accepted. I remember TLS was an unbelievably great resource back in the day, and hope to contribute to that some as well.

Me: if you dig through my past posts and profile, you might be able to piece some things together, but I will just have a quick recap here instead. HLS 3L, as the title suggests; originally from TX; employed (biglaw) in TX, which was my goal (I am willing to fanatically discuss the merits of TX biglaw over most other options ); seemingly on track to be a cum laude grad (who can ever really know w/ our grading system haha), but def not a magna cum laude grad lol.

Happy holidays! And ask away. Any other HLS students who want to hijack the thread a bit, feel free. I'm weak in the areas of parking, on-campus living (I live a tad off campus, but still through Harvard Real Estate), and non-profit job searching.

[Elston Gunn]

I'm not at HLS, but I'd love to hear about what you think the advantages of TX Biglaw are over other non-NY markets (especially DC). Obviously I know the money is much better, but I'm curious about your thoughts on things like hours and quality of work. Also, are you in Houston or Dallas? Thoughts on living in your city?

[094320]

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[Doorkeeper]

I'm a 2L, won't say where I'm from cuz I have enough personal info on here already, will be in California next summer for biglaw, and def. not on track to grad with cum laude cuz I failed to show up to 100% of my corporations classes in November (it was before Noon, too much to ask).

You. You're doing HLS correctly.

I'm totally being serious.

[Lovely Ludwig Van]

Obligatory job question. How did your peers who are not on track to graduate cum laude do at EIP? Have most if not all the 3L's found something by now?

Merry Christmas and congrats on being a semester away from graduation.

[094320]

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[manofjustice]

What do you know about the transfer potential into Harvard this year? Assume LSAT more than competitive as a 0L, but split the UGPA. Assume (obviously) good 1L grades.

[Lovely Ludwig Van]

Doublechecks and I did EIP in different years (obviously, but just in case nobody read the preceding few posts), so he'll probably have a different answer to this.

From what I saw, you def. didn't need to be on track for cum laude to end up in a V5 NYC firm. I know people heading to V5 firms who, unless they suddenly and miraculously do a lot better their 2L and 3L years, aren't going to make cum laude(top 40%, for those who don't know). There are a few grade-picky firms (Wachtell), but otherwise grades didn't seem to determine too much in NYC, even among the most "prestigious" firms.

I don't know the grades of people who did D.C., but I hear from word of mouth that you need grades for D.C.

Other factors that seemed to matter, to varying degrees:
--Sheer interview charisma (this was huge)
--Relevant work experience (people who work at McKinsey, Goldman Sachs,etc. before law school, also v. important)
--Undergrad prestige(?)

I only know of 2 people who didn't get an offer for an SA through EIP--one managed to get one later, somehow, and the other switched course and will be doing a public-interest internship next summer (note, this person originally wasn't sure about whether he/she wanted a firm job in the first place).

During EIP orientation, OCS showed us some charts showing how, post-crash, the % of SA positions nationwide taken up by HLS students went up. Basically, as firms cut back, they seemed to cut more candidates from other schools than from HLS (though they cut spots for HLS students, as well, obviously).

Thanks for the response, good to hear.

It seems like interviewing ability or 'charisma' gets mentioned a lot in terms of things that matter at EIP. Anybody have a minute to expand on what constitutes a 'charismatic' interview or good interviewing ability in general?

Thanks again and Merry Christmas!

[chicago5950]

Quick Q for you.

I'm graduating next year with a Theatre degree, minoring in chemistry and business administration.

I am wanting to take a part-time paralegal/legal assistant job in boston to build a network and look for work as an actor. Do you know how hard it is to get a part-time job in the boston area? Oh, and I am considering harvard for law school after a year or two of working-- do you have any suggestions of rubbing elbows in the boston area?

Thanks

[094320]

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[DoubleChecks]

Wow sorry my Christmas day got a LOT more hectic than I thought it would. Behind in questions haha, so here we go at 3:30 AM CST!

I'm not at HLS, but I'd love to hear about what you think the advantages of TX Biglaw are over other non-NY markets (especially DC). Obviously I know the money is much better, but I'm curious about your thoughts on things like hours and quality of work. Also, are you in Houston or Dallas? Thoughts on living in your city?

I am definitely biased when it comes to this, but I will try to temper my enthusiasm. I live in Houston, but anywhere in TX, money is a big difference compared to NYC, esp. if you are paying back debt. It isn't just the "no state income taxes"...which is REALLY sweet (some say the higher property taxes, ~3%, is a bummer, but with real estate dirt cheap in TX...not a huge deal), but housing and COL in general is a half to a third of NYC. Decently affluent suburb, 2000 sq. ft. home w/ a yard, just a few yrs old, great location and neighborhood, $200k EASY.

Good food here in Houston for sure, though I can imagine NYC beating us in that dept. Just saying Houston isn't some city with no good restaurants -- have a ton. We are the city with the second highest number of Fortune 500 companies stationed within it (or something), and the economy is pretty darn amazing in TX (*cough*california*cough* ). The recession was not as strongly felt in Houston. HTown is also a great cultural center, which is something I had not known/appreciated in the past.

As far as hours go, I would say it is definitely better than NYC (from what I hear from friends)...it is still biglaw, so you get the inconsistency and sometimes horrid hours, but overall, better hrs (avg. 60? 65?). Quality of work is great too, esp. Houston and the energy industry. Really no where better for O&G work...lots of NY firms realize that now and are trying to muscle their way into our local legal economy as well haha. Co-workers/bosses are great. I hear horror stories from NYC friends...but I have never, after working both summers in Houston, EVER been stressed by a co-worker or partner at work (split summers too, so more than one TX biglaw firm). Of course I have been stressed by the work before, esp. when I first started, but the people have all been super nice.

Those are what I view as the positives of Houston over NYC. I mean, NYC is also NYC, so most people who grew up in the northeast love it, and there is more to do in NYC (it being NYC and all). Houston is growing its nightlife rather successfully the last few yrs, and is continuing to do so, but again, it ain't no NYC. DC and Cali are other popular markets, with their pros and cons. I lived in Cali for a number of years -- love the weather and a LOT of things about it, but the state of the economy in general there scares me a tad tbh. No real idea on the legal economy in Cali though, so I won't pretend to know more than I do on that topic haha. Oh, speaking of weather, TX summers are balls hot, but you drive everywhere so it is AC'd location A to car w/ AC to AC'd location B haha. Winters are AWESOME now. 70 degrees most days. Wore short sleeves today. I guess if you love the cold and snow though this would kind of suck. Personally, I don't miss Boston winters...lol.

[DoubleChecks]

Tagging cuz I'm all over Harvard students taking questions thread. Oh, I'll ask a question.

WHY haven't we run into each other IRL yet?

Oh, and for the lurking 0Ls or stalking upperclassmen, I'm a 2L, won't say where I'm from cuz I have enough personal info on here already, will be in California next summer for biglaw, and def. not on track to grad with cum laude cuz I failed to show up to 100% of my corporations classes in November (it was before Noon, too much to ask).

We haven't run into each other, but I am sure I have creepily recognized you from afar hahaha.

I'm a 2L, won't say where I'm from cuz I have enough personal info on here already, will be in California next summer for biglaw, and def. not on track to grad with cum laude cuz I failed to show up to 100% of my corporations classes in November (it was before Noon, too much to ask).

You. You're doing HLS correctly.

I'm totally being serious.

And yeah wow 100% is impressive. I missed a third of my corps class, and so did 2 of my other close friends. When we were studying, we were hoping together we would equal 100% attendance (as far as the material went)...apparently we overlapped on the 1/3 that we each knew.../poor planning.

[DoubleChecks]

Obligatory job question. How did your peers who are not on track to graduate cum laude do at EIP? Have most if not all the 3L's found something by now?
.

Doublechecks and I did EIP in different years (obviously, but just in case nobody read the preceding few posts), so he'll probably have a different answer to this.

From what I saw, you def. didn't need to be on track for cum laude to end up in a V5 NYC firm. I know people heading to V5 firms who, unless they suddenly and miraculously do a lot better their 2L and 3L years, aren't going to make cum laude(top 40%, for those who don't know). There are a few grade-picky firms (Wachtell), but otherwise grades didn't seem to determine too much in NYC, even among the most "prestigious" firms.

I don't know the grades of people who did D.C., but I hear from word of mouth that you need grades for D.C.

Other factors that seemed to matter, to varying degrees:
--Sheer interview charisma (this was huge)
--Relevant work experience (people who work at McKinsey, Goldman Sachs,etc. before law school, also v. important)
--Undergrad prestige(?)

I only know of 2 people who didn't get an offer for an SA through EIP--one managed to get one later, somehow, and the other switched course and will be doing a public-interest internship next summer (note, this person originally wasn't sure about whether he/she wanted a firm job in the first place).

During EIP orientation, OCS showed us some charts showing how, post-crash, the % of SA positions nationwide taken up by HLS students went up. Basically, as firms cut back, they seemed to cut more candidates from other schools than from HLS (though they cut spots for HLS students, as well, obviously).

I don't even know why I am commenting on this because my take on it is 100% the same as acrossthelake's. There are maybe 10 firms that are selective enough where you need top grades (Boies, Susman, Wachtell, soooorta Cravath, QE, W&C, etc.), but almost all other firms you can get SA from median grades. I have a LOT of friends I know who got V5 and V10 jobs with median grades. Some were slightly below, some were at, some were slightly above...no real correlation in results lol. As acrossthelake said, interviewing prowess and relevant work experience was a better way of gauging results than grades per se.

Tougher markets (DC, Chicago, SF) did require slightly better grades though, generally. DC and SF because their demand for attorneys is actually rather small relative to their supply (lots want to go there). Chicago because their legal economy tanked during the recession and took (is taking?) longer to recover.

And I didn't mean to mislead w/ my current grade standing -- during EIP I had median-ish grades. It did not negatively impact me AT ALL. I only did TX firms though (my anecdotal evidence from above was from a large sample of friends who applied everywhere though), but I got maybe around 75% cb ratio. The few I didn't get were smaller firms that ended up not giving cbs to anyone, or a couple where I totally messed up the screener (I was 15 min late to one 20 min interview...bahhh haha). In fact, the person I know who did the best (mostly TX and Cali market) got like 30 cbs out of 31 screeners o.O Median-ish grades, but she is a monster interviewer.

And finally, the few I heard who didn't get a job through EIP and interviewed got jobs on their own some time later. Again, why did I even type anything other than "+1" to acrossthelake's post? I must really enjoy procrastinating sleeping.

Thanks for the response, good to hear.

It seems like interviewing ability or 'charisma' gets mentioned a lot in terms of things that matter at EIP. Anybody have a minute to expand on what constitutes a 'charismatic' interview or good interviewing ability in general?

Thanks again and Merry Christmas!

imo, it is professionalism. That is huge. I don't know why more people don't believe me on this, but firms (or any job) want to see PROFESSIONALISM. They want someone who they can introduce to a client; someone they feel is not immature; someone they can rely on. Be professional and learn some basic interviewing tips. Hard to type out, but most schools will have career services that can help with that. Oh, and prepare for questions. 90% of the questions are repetitive and predictable. I'm not saying memorize like a robot, but know what you want to say and where to go with it, and be COMFORTABLE in giving that response.

[DoubleChecks]

What do you know about the transfer potential into Harvard this year? Assume LSAT more than competitive as a 0L, but split the UGPA. Assume (obviously) good 1L grades.

Sorry, I have absolutely no clue about this. Anything more I say in response would be pulling something out of my ass and probably misleading lol. Hopefully someone else who can help you will read this thread :S.

[DoubleChecks]

Thanks for the response, good to hear.

It seems like interviewing ability or 'charisma' gets mentioned a lot in terms of things that matter at EIP. Anybody have a minute to expand on what constitutes a 'charismatic' interview or good interviewing ability in general?

Thanks again and Merry Christmas!

It's not unique to HLS, so there is probably a lot of advice you can find more generally in other threads. Practice is important. On a broad scale, it's about being able to strike the balance between appearing both professional, and someone the interviewer would like to grab a drink with. You should've thought about the answer to most of the questions ahead of time (they're predictable and OCS has a list) and should have a crisp, thoughtful answer that you can give in a manner as if it was the first time you gave the response. You should also have questions prepared, tailored to the firm if possible. At the same time, your demeanor, your tone of voice, etc. should be friendly. Smile. Seem genuinely interested in the person you're talking to and try to make it feel like a conversation.

I have no idea how to answer the rest of these questions.

Did not see your response to this question until after I typed mine out to him. Again, we need to stop sharing thoughts. It is getting creepy now.../stares from afar

Quick Q for you.

I'm graduating next year with a Theatre degree, minoring in chemistry and business administration.

I am wanting to take a part-time paralegal/legal assistant job in boston to build a network and look for work as an actor. Do you know how hard it is to get a part-time job in the boston area? Oh, and I am considering harvard for law school after a year or two of working-- do you have any suggestions of rubbing elbows in the boston area?

Thanks

No idea on how hard it is to get a job in Boston...but I don't think it is super easy. My fiance looked around for the few months she was up here, and they weren't exactly jumping out at her (but she was picky, only staying for awhile, etc. other factors). As far as rubbing elbows in the Boston area...again, sorry, no clue :X

[salad456]

Question about PI/LIPP here. I was wondering what the prospects look like for students intending to pursue public interest positions after graduation by this point in the year. Also wondering if anyone has much of a sense about using the LIPP after graduation, and to what extent it really makes working in public interest feasible while paying off loans. I am a recent admit, want to work in PI, and am trying to weigh my options between HLS and other T14s with scholarship offers... thanks for any insight!

[canarykb]

Question about PI/LIPP here. I was wondering what the prospects look like for students intending to pursue public interest positions after graduation by this point in the year. Also wondering if anyone has much of a sense about using the LIPP after graduation, and to what extent it really makes working in public interest feasible while paying off loans. I am a recent admit, want to work in PI, and am trying to weigh my options between HLS and other T14s with scholarship offers... thanks for any insight!

Also interested in this!

[Stinson]

To the LIPP question, I'm sure if you want to be put into contact with people currently using it the financial services people could certainly do that. I have heard good things about it, and I promise no one starves.

The thing you have to understand about LIPP is how it different from pretty much all the T-14 LRAP's (excluding Yale and Stanford, which take similar approaches). As far as a I know, every LRAP outside HYS (For a while Columbia allowed students to choose between an old and new program; I don't know if they still do) was reconfigured in the past few years to dovetail with Federal IBR/PSLF. IBR, if you aren't aware, has grads pay 15% of discretionary income (it was 15% when I started HLS it might be 10% now) towards loans and, once they clock ten years in a public service job, forgives the remaining balance. So what the school LRAP's do is make these 15% payments for you at the income levels you'd be looking at in public service (<$75,000 at most schools).

That's the benefit. What about the drawbacks?
- Need to clock ten years in public service or you get nothing. Actually, you get worse than nothing if your 15% payments have not been covering the interest. If you decide to change career paths (or are a victim of austerity) at nine years out, you will essentially have made no progress on your loans whatsoever.
- Covers only jobs that are non-profit or in government.
- You have ten years of hoping that President Ryan and Vice President Rand Paul, together with House Majority Leader Cantor, don't sign the "Public Service is for Socialists and Moochers and Let's Cut Everything Except Defense Because America is a Shining Beacon and Needs to Outspend Everyone Else in the World Despite Being Broke Act" of 2018 and get rid of PSLF. IBR, however, is written in with the terms of the loan and is less likely to be repealed.

LIPP works differently. You make a yearly payment based on a sliding scale. For example, at $50,000/yr salary you pay $800/yr. At $60,000/yr you pay about $4000/yr. HLS then pays the remainder of your total loan payment for that year, based on a ten year repayment plan. So after two years, 20% of your debt is gone. After seven years, 70% is gone. Up to $30,000 of prior educational debt and $10,000 in bar expenses are also covered. Moreover, and this part is important, you can drop in and out as much as you want.

If you want to work three years in BigLaw and then decide to do public service, you can drop into LIPP and it will be as though you'd been there the whole time. If you want to do six years in public interest and then a private sector opportunity comes along that you really want, 60% of your debt will be gone. Also, LIPP covers all legal jobs, private and public, as well as any nonprofit non-legal job.

If you are looking at full schollies and no cost of living at the other schools you are considering, this comparison is moot, I admit. But if you are considering other great schools that will still leave you with a chunk of debt, the choice basically comes down to freedom with a higher payment with LIPP, or lower payment but far less choice about structuring your career.

Lastly, if you are interested in public service, you should ask someone in OPIA to give you some info on the Public Service Venture Fund, which as far as I know only HLS has. The Fund annually disperses money to create public service fellowships at organizations where grads want to work but where the organization cannot afford to pay them. If you are into PI, the dearth of places that are hiring with actual paying positions is as big if not bigger a headache than worrying about repaying loans. You can still apply for Equal Justice Works fellowships and the like, but the Fund is there to back you up with a nice big pool of money to create fellowships just for HLS students and help them get their foot in the door.

[salad456]

Thanks Stinson, really helpful information!

[polareagle]

- You have ten years of hoping that President Ryan and Vice President Rand Paul, together with House Majority Leader Cantor, don't sign the "Public Service is for Socialists and Moochers and Let's Cut Everything Except Defense Because America is a Shining Beacon and Needs to Outspend Everyone Else in the World Despite Being Broke Act" of 2018 and get rid of PSLF.

180

[AllTheLawz]

Obligatory job question. How did your peers who are not on track to graduate cum laude do at EIP? Have most if not all the 3L's found something by now?

Merry Christmas and congrats on being a semester away from graduation.

+1 to the above posts regarding this question and I will add that the same applies to below median. I am significantly below median (at least I think I am) and my screener to CB conversion rate was around 75%. I can't speak much to NYC since I didn't apply there but I did well with the firms that are considered top of their respective secondary markets (think ATL/BOS/CHI) and decently with the second-tier biglaw firms in DC as well.

[BalanceCare]

Question about PI/LIPP here. I was wondering what the prospects look like for students intending to pursue public interest positions after graduation by this point in the year. Also wondering if anyone has much of a sense about using the LIPP after graduation, and to what extent it really makes working in public interest feasible while paying off loans. I am a recent admit, want to work in PI, and am trying to weigh my options between HLS and other T14s with scholarship offers... thanks for any insight!

Also interested in this!

+1,000

[094320]

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[J-e-L-L-o]

How do Texas firms look at non-Texans...even for IP?

[DoubleChecks]

How do Texas firms look at non-Texans...even for IP?

I use to hear that roots to TX mattered...but the hiring partner of one biglaw TX firm explicitly told me that was not true. I think Texans will NOT look negatively toward non-Texans for 2L SA. There might be some 1L SA suspicion though.