Status of Atlanta Job Market?

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BearsGrl
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Re: Status of Atlanta Job Market?

Postby BearsGrl » Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:12 pm

romothesavior wrote:
kuttlefish wrote:+1 for no worse than anywhere outside NYC

I'm not sure if this is what Aberzombie was trying to say, but if it is, then he's waaaaaaay off base. For one thing, there are markets out there right now that are arguably certainly tougher to land than NYC. Chicago and DC spring to mind. And once you get out of the major markets and into discussion about the strong secondaries, there is certainly disparity in difficulty in landing a job.This is due to a multitude of factors including size of market, desirability of market, insularity of market, competition from schools in the market, etc.

So yes while it's tough everywhere ITE, it's terrible advice to just say everywhere is equally tough, or even similarly tough, for everyone. It's not.

As to Atlanta in particular, I'm not really qualified to give advice on that market, but everything I have heard is that it's really tough. Atlanta is a cool city, an intellectual and business hub of the south, and one of the more urban/progressive cities in the deep south. And from a legal market perspective, the best legal work and best salaries in the south (typically) are in Atlanta.


I agree with this analysis.

cynthiad
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Re: Status of Atlanta Job Market?

Postby cynthiad » Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:20 pm

BearsGrl wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
You just took an on-topic discussion regarding Atlanta's legal market to a pissing contest about brain drains (Gatriel is right, btw, and it's not an insulting thing to say) to commutes to the Huffington Post to Paul Krugman. In less than a page. That takes real ability, and I commend you for it.


Nope. Still a rude thing to say. Pretty much attacking a full region shows you for the person that you are. And frankly, as an employer, I wouldn't want you representing my client that has its HQ in the South.

The clear evidence is that any metro is going to be rough. Period. Why are there 583594854 posts about this on TLS?


How does saying that Atlanta is a brain drain for the south attacking anyone? It just means that a lot of smart, talented people move there to find opportunities, just like people move to New York or DC or Silicon Valley or Hollywood. It's the nature of cities to attract ambitious people. This is relevant to the Atlanta legal market, because you have to factor in that a lot of people who aren't necessarily from Atlanta will be looking for jobs there too, whereas in some cities you'd mostly be competing with local talent.

BearsGrl
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Re: Status of Atlanta Job Market?

Postby BearsGrl » Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:34 pm

cynthiad wrote:
BearsGrl wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
You just took an on-topic discussion regarding Atlanta's legal market to a pissing contest about brain drains (Gatriel is right, btw, and it's not an insulting thing to say) to commutes to the Huffington Post to Paul Krugman. In less than a page. That takes real ability, and I commend you for it.


Nope. Still a rude thing to say. Pretty much attacking a full region shows you for the person that you are. And frankly, as an employer, I wouldn't want you representing my client that has its HQ in the South.

The clear evidence is that any metro is going to be rough. Period. Why are there 583594854 posts about this on TLS?


How does saying that Atlanta is a brain drain for the south attacking anyone? It just means that a lot of smart, talented people move there to find opportunities, just like people move to New York or DC or Silicon Valley or Hollywood. It's the nature of cities to attract ambitious people. This is relevant to the Atlanta legal market, because you have to factor in that a lot of people who aren't necessarily from Atlanta will be looking for jobs there too, whereas in some cities you'd mostly be competing with local talent.


No, what Gal was saying was that the South was full of a lot of stupid people and that ATL was a hub of smart people. That's not the same thing as saying, like Romo did above, that ATL is a hub for intellectual people.

And I'd beg to differ on the idea that DC/Hollywood are full of smart people, but that's not what this thread is about. In any city that is considered a metro of some sort, you're going to be dealing with people from all over. There are secondary markets that become hubs of transplants from other cities/states. The only difference in larger markets is going to be the common idea that you in a larger market, you have more people wanting to trickle into the larger market. That's not rocket science though.
Last edited by BearsGrl on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AllTheLawz
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Re: Status of Atlanta Job Market?

Postby AllTheLawz » Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:35 pm

Absolutely horrible. I think the number of biglaw SAs this year is like 50-60. Coming from HYS I applied to 4 markets and ATL definitely gave me my worst results.

cynthiad
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Re: Status of Atlanta Job Market?

Postby cynthiad » Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:49 pm

BearsGrl wrote:
cynthiad wrote:
BearsGrl wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
You just took an on-topic discussion regarding Atlanta's legal market to a pissing contest about brain drains (Gatriel is right, btw, and it's not an insulting thing to say) to commutes to the Huffington Post to Paul Krugman. In less than a page. That takes real ability, and I commend you for it.


Nope. Still a rude thing to say. Pretty much attacking a full region shows you for the person that you are. And frankly, as an employer, I wouldn't want you representing my client that has its HQ in the South.

The clear evidence is that any metro is going to be rough. Period. Why are there 583594854 posts about this on TLS?


How does saying that Atlanta is a brain drain for the south attacking anyone? It just means that a lot of smart, talented people move there to find opportunities, just like people move to New York or DC or Silicon Valley or Hollywood. It's the nature of cities to attract ambitious people. This is relevant to the Atlanta legal market, because you have to factor in that a lot of people who aren't necessarily from Atlanta will be looking for jobs there too, whereas in some cities you'd mostly be competing with local talent.


No, what Gal was saying was that the South was full of a lot of stupid people and that ATL was a hub of smart people. That's not the same thing as saying, like Romo did above, that ATL is a hub for intellectual people.

And I'd beg to differ on the idea that DC/Hollywood are full of smart people, but that's not what this thread is about. In any city that is considered a metro of some sort, you're going to be dealing with people from all over. There are secondary markets that become hubs of transplants from other cities/states. The only difference in larger markets is going to be the common idea that you have a larger market, you have more people wanting to trickle into the larger market. That's not rocket science though.


Um, do you know what brain drain means? It doesn't mean that a region is full of stupid people. It means that a higher proportion of smart/talented/ambitious people move from one area to another, like people from many places in the south moving to Atlanta because they want more high-powered jobs. It doesn't imply that people in the south are stupid, just that Atlanta attracts smart people. It was originally used to refer to the phenomenon of particularly smart and well educated people in developing countries moving to developed countries, thus depriving their original countries of their abilities. In the case of Atlanta, the result might be that other places in the south have less T14 grads, top bschool grads, Ph.Ds than Atlanta because a higher proportion move to Atlanta. But that doesn't imply that people are stupid if they don't have a prestigious degree, or that a smaller percentage of people with those degrees is the same as no percentage.

And I'm not sure you why you thought I was saying that Hollywood or DC or any other city was full of smart people. I wasn't. When I referred to Hollywood, I was talking about how it attracts people with acting or other performing arts talent. This doesn't mean that 99% of the wannabe actors it attracts aren't going to wind up as waiters, just that those few people in the country who are truly talented actors are more likely to try to make a living as an actor in Hollywood than, say, Nebraska. This doesn't mean there's anything wrong with Nebraska, anymore than saying that Atlanta attracts a certain type of person means there's anything wrong with the rest of the south. Similar story for DC--people interested in gov't or related work go there, meaning other places may have a smaller percentage of Ivy League Poli Sci majors (not sure if this is any great loss for those other places).

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lawhopeful10
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Re: Status of Atlanta Job Market?

Postby lawhopeful10 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:01 pm

Whats the problem with living in Atlanta......
It's surrounded by Georgia hahahaha

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romothesavior
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Re: Status of Atlanta Job Market?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:03 pm

cynthiad wrote:Um, do you know what brain drain means? It doesn't mean that a region is full of stupid people. It means that a higher proportion of smart/talented/ambitious people move from one area to another, like people from many places in the south moving to Atlanta because they want more high-powered jobs.

I almost typed this verbatim but I held my tongue. Thought I'd try to actually be nice to BearsGrl, but the stupid just runs too thick.

Nothing Gatriel said was offensive. At least in this thread.

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hume85
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Re: Status of Atlanta Job Market?

Postby hume85 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:07 pm

romothesavior wrote:
cynthiad wrote:Um, do you know what brain drain means? It doesn't mean that a region is full of stupid people. It means that a higher proportion of smart/talented/ambitious people move from one area to another, like people from many places in the south moving to Atlanta because they want more high-powered jobs.

I almost typed this verbatim but I held my tongue. Thought I'd try to actually be nice to BearsGrl, but the stupid just runs too thick.

Nothing Gatriel said was offensive. At least in this thread.


I really hope BearsGrl didn't/doesn't go to Cal. If you did/do, you need to stop posting: you are embarrassing the alumni and hurting our reputation.

BearsGrl
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Re: Status of Atlanta Job Market?

Postby BearsGrl » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:19 pm

[quote="cynthiad"]

So you wanted me to assume that you meant Hollywood meant actors instead of Hollywood meant that smart people lived in that city, like the discussion was describing? Well, then, you deserve the award for Most Obvious. I seriously mean that as no offense, but calling a city an intellectual hub is far different to me than saying that a city is a brain drain. I had never heard of brain drain in the context that you described it.

Calling ATL an intellectual hub and Hollywood a land for actors is one of the most obvious statements/concepts out there. I don't know why posts/comments like that even exist. And of course I don't go to school in CA. I wouldn't want to pay those rental prices on top of taxes on top of everything else fees. Rental for 3 yrs in CA? No way.

Although, mostly industry people that aren't actors actually live in Hollywood. I have a friend that works in graphics in the industry that lives in H-wood. Not a lot of actors live in H-wood. :)

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romothesavior
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Re: Status of Atlanta Job Market?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:23 pm

BearsGrl wrote:Calling ATL an intellectual hub and Hollywood a land for actors is one of the most obvious statements/concepts out there. I don't know why posts/comments like that even exist. And of course I don't go to school in CA. I wouldn't want to pay those rental prices on top of taxes on top of everything else fees. Rental for 3 yrs in CA? No way.

You're ignoring the point: you got all riled up over nothing. You got mad over a phrase that wasn't offensive. Which is quite... Gatrielesque, actually. *head asplode*

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hume85
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Re: Status of Atlanta Job Market?

Postby hume85 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:27 pm

BearsGrl wrote:
cynthiad wrote:
So you wanted me to assume that you meant Hollywood meant actors instead of Hollywood meant that smart people lived in that city, like the discussion was describing? Well, then, you deserve the award for Most Obvious. I seriously mean that as no offense, but calling a city an intellectual hub is far different to me than saying that a city is a brain drain. I had never heard of brain drain in the context that you described it.

Calling ATL an intellectual hub and Hollywood a land for actors is one of the most obvious statements/concepts out there. I don't know why posts/comments like that even exist. And of course I don't go to school in CA. I wouldn't want to pay those rental prices on top of taxes on top of everything else fees. Rental for 3 yrs in CA? No way.

Although, mostly industry people that aren't actors actually live in Hollywood. I have a friend that works in graphics in the industry that lives in H-wood. Not a lot of actors live in H-wood. :)


Phew!

BearsGrl
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Re: Status of Atlanta Job Market?

Postby BearsGrl » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:33 pm

romothesavior wrote:
BearsGrl wrote:Calling ATL an intellectual hub and Hollywood a land for actors is one of the most obvious statements/concepts out there. I don't know why posts/comments like that even exist. And of course I don't go to school in CA. I wouldn't want to pay those rental prices on top of taxes on top of everything else fees. Rental for 3 yrs in CA? No way.

You're ignoring the point: you got all riled up over nothing. You got mad over a phrase that wasn't offensive. Which is quite... Gatrielesque, actually. *head asplode*


If he meant that it was an intellectual hub, then I apologize for my derailment of this thread. However, it just came off elite. I still stand by that fact too.

BearsGrl
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Re: Status of Atlanta Job Market?

Postby BearsGrl » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:34 pm

hume85 wrote:
BearsGrl wrote:
cynthiad wrote:
So you wanted me to assume that you meant Hollywood meant actors instead of Hollywood meant that smart people lived in that city, like the discussion was describing? Well, then, you deserve the award for Most Obvious. I seriously mean that as no offense, but calling a city an intellectual hub is far different to me than saying that a city is a brain drain. I had never heard of brain drain in the context that you described it.

Calling ATL an intellectual hub and Hollywood a land for actors is one of the most obvious statements/concepts out there. I don't know why posts/comments like that even exist. And of course I don't go to school in CA. I wouldn't want to pay those rental prices on top of taxes on top of everything else fees. Rental for 3 yrs in CA? No way.

Although, mostly industry people that aren't actors actually live in Hollywood. I have a friend that works in graphics in the industry that lives in H-wood. Not a lot of actors live in H-wood. :)


Phew!


I already graduated from one graduate program in CA. I'm not going to be stupid and pay that high rental value again. :) I call that responsible planning but whatevs.

cynthiad
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Re: Status of Atlanta Job Market?

Postby cynthiad » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:43 pm

BearsGrl wrote:
So you wanted me to assume that you meant Hollywood meant actors instead of Hollywood meant that smart people lived in that city, like the discussion was describing? Well, then, you deserve the award for Most Obvious. I seriously mean that as no offense, but calling a city an intellectual hub is far different to me than saying that a city is a brain drain. I had never heard of brain drain in the context that you described it.

Calling ATL an intellectual hub and Hollywood a land for actors is one of the most obvious statements/concepts out there. I don't know why posts/comments like that even exist. And of course I don't go to school in CA. I wouldn't want to pay those rental prices on top of taxes on top of everything else fees. Rental for 3 yrs in CA? No way.

Although, mostly industry people that aren't actors actually live in Hollywood. I have a friend that works in graphics in the industry that lives in H-wood. Not a lot of actors live in H-wood. :)


try googling "brain drain" definition

"brain drain (noun) The emigration of highly trained or intelligent people from a particular country."

I was referring to the obvious fact that certain cities attract people who want to do certain kinds of jobs. Of course saying Hollywood (and I'm not talking about the physical borders of the city of Hollywood, of course people in the movie business live in LA and Culver City and Santa Monica and Encino and whatever too, it's all the same metropolitan area) is where people go if they want to work in the entertainment industry is obvious. And trust me, there are a lot of actors who moved there from other places, I grew up in the LA area and met a lot of aspiring actors.

I know that the Hollywood-entertainment industry is obvious. That's why when I listed cities (New York, DC, Silicon Valley, Hollywood) I didn't specify the type of people they tend to attract--because it's blindingly obvious, that say, Silicon Valley is where tech people go, DC is where gov't people go, etc. I only clarified that when I said Hollywood, I was referring to the entertainment industry, because your post made it clear you hadn't understand the implied meaning. That's why posts like that exist--because this fact that is supposedly so obvious now apparently wasn't clear in my first post, where I just implied it.

Once again, "brain drain" doesn't mean that the population of the city doing the draining is smart overall--even if the city attracts a large portion of smart people from other areas, those smart people might still be outnumbered by not-smart people.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Status of Atlanta Job Market?

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:50 pm

Getting back to the POINT of this thread...I have to side with Rad Lulz about the grade whoring aspect of Atlanta being a bit worse than most secondary markets. The vibe I get from say, Texas, is that if you are from there and attend a top 14 that goes a looooong way. I've gotten that same vibe about California firms as well. Whereas Atlanta just seems to look at your transcript and then tells you to get the hell out if it doesn't fall within their hard cutoffs. Saying that you're from their just gets you a "Get the hell out and good luck in your job search" afterwards. The big problem seems to be that their cutoffs just don't vary all that much, all things considered, across rankings.

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kuttlefish
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Re: Status of Atlanta Job Market?

Postby kuttlefish » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:50 am

BruceWayne wrote:Getting back to the POINT of this thread...I have to side with Rad Lulz about the grade whoring aspect of Atlanta being a bit worse than most secondary markets. The vibe I get from say, Texas, is that if you are from there and attend a top 14 that goes a looooong way. I've gotten that same vibe about California firms as well. Whereas Atlanta just seems to look at your transcript and then tells you to get the hell out if it doesn't fall within their hard cutoffs. Saying that you're from their just gets you a "Get the hell out and good luck in your job search" afterwards. The big problem seems to be that their cutoffs just don't vary all that much, all things considered, across rankings.


If I'm understanding correctly, a top 5% ranking from say William & Mary or Washington & Lee or Tulane, or LSU (ignoring civil vs common law) is just as likely to get me into the Atlanta market as Emory or UGA. And a bottom 90% from any school, in-state or out, and I'm screwed. The plus side of the out of sate regional schools is that they have non-atlanta markets that they feed into, whereas with UGA/GS (and Emory to a lesser extent), it's Atlanta or bust.

gregfootball2001
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Re: Status of Atlanta Job Market?

Postby gregfootball2001 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:57 pm

I can say for a fact that most of UGA's 2L 10% got SAs. Lower than that certainly might have, but I couldn't tell you one way or another.

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nmcdgt
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Re: Status of Atlanta Job Market?

Postby nmcdgt » Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:24 am

A supremely tough market. Emory's 2L OCI was a slaughter, and although the people at the very top of the class (think top 5%) mostly have SA's, I still know plenty of people in the top 15-20% without anything lined up, and obviously the lower you go down in the class the worse it gets. Even the biggest firms here have small class sizes -- from what I've seen just this year, King & Spalding took 12-13, Arnall Golden Gregory took 3, Bryan Cave took 3, and McKenna took 7-8, just to name a few. I've honestly only heard of K&S and A+B even taking more than 10 SA's. When you factor in the strong grade selectivity and the desire for ties, along with the fact that you have Emory, GSU, and UGA in state, along with Duke, UVA, Vandy, UF/FSU, UNC, and other T14 schools feeding in, it's pretty bad. I had an easier time in other markets with no ties at all than I did in Atlanta with lifelong ties and good grades. Anecdotally, just at Emory alone K&S did 44 screeners at OCI, plus whatever other schools they drew from, just to fill their 12 SA spots. Good luck to anyone else applying in this market.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Status of Atlanta Job Market?

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:13 pm

nmcdgt wrote:A supremely tough market. Emory's 2L OCI was a slaughter, and although the people at the very top of the class (think top 5%) mostly have SA's, I still know plenty of people in the top 15-20% without anything lined up, and obviously the lower you go down in the class the worse it gets. Even the biggest firms here have small class sizes -- from what I've seen just this year, King & Spalding took 12-13, Arnall Golden Gregory took 3, Bryan Cave took 3, and McKenna took 7-8, just to name a few. I've honestly only heard of K&S and A+B even taking more than 10 SA's. When you factor in the strong grade selectivity and the desire for ties, along with the fact that you have Emory, GSU, and UGA in state, along with Duke, UVA, Vandy, UF/FSU, UNC, and other T14 schools feeding in, it's pretty bad. I had an easier time in other markets with no ties at all than I did in Atlanta with lifelong ties and good grades. Anecdotally, just at Emory alone K&S did 44 screeners at OCI, plus whatever other schools they drew from, just to fill their 12 SA spots. Good luck to anyone else applying in this market.


The Atlanta legal market is just one big awful joke.




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