Academia in employments stats

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Br3v
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Academia in employments stats

Postby Br3v » Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:24 pm

I have done a lot of research on legal academia and understand that outside if HYS it is an incredibly difficult thing to accomplish. With that being said, what do the "academia" jobs listed in most schools employment stats represent? As in when they say "50% large firm, 5% clerkship, 2% academia" for example. Are these academia jobs students who have a PhD before law school and are thus more likely to land an academic job or more likely in an academic job in the PhD subject at an undergraduate institution rather than a law school? Could this just be school funded research fellowships or something? Or are these handful of students actually employed in legal academia?

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Br3v
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Re: Academia in employments stats

Postby Br3v » Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:57 pm

Study break bump

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Academia in employments stats

Postby Doorkeeper » Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:44 pm

I would assume it means all people who are employed by academia = VAPs, Fellowships, Lecturers, Professors. This does not include people going to get their PhDs, but people currently employed by a law school.

I'm not sure whether this includes administrative staff as well.
Last edited by Doorkeeper on Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bdubs
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Re: Academia in employments stats

Postby bdubs » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:10 pm

I would imagine that outside of HYS the vast majority of academia positions are going to be clinic positions. Some of them are clinical professors, some will just be clinic staff members.

HYS is more likely to include a larger number of fellowships but its still probably a pretty small number since most academia focused students do clerkships first before pursuing fellowships etc..

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Elston Gunn
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Re: Academia in employments stats

Postby Elston Gunn » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:12 pm

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it included high school teachers and the like.

rad lulz
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Re: Academia in employments stats

Postby rad lulz » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:13 pm

It means whatever the law skoolz want it to mean.

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bk1
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Re: Academia in employments stats

Postby bk1 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:14 pm

It is generally not good employment (aka not what doorkeeper said). Generally it tends to be people who are temporarily employed by the law school to boost its employment stats.

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dextermorgan
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Re: Academia in employments stats

Postby dextermorgan » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:14 pm

It is not easy for someone who had a PhD prior to law school to land academia in their old field btw. It's actually incredibly hard because they are generally viewed as abandoning the field.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Academia in employments stats

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:19 pm

bk1 wrote:It is generally not good employment (aka not what doorkeeper said). Generally it tends to be people who are temporarily employed by the law school to boost its employment stats.


I think I remember reading somewhere that school also include people who get various staff jobs at law schools (in admissions office, student services, etc.).

OP- don't look at what the school reports for academia. Go look up stuff by Larry Solum and Brian Leiter about academic placement.

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Br3v
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Re: Academia in employments stats

Postby Br3v » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:21 pm

So general consensus is that it is probably bad? As in school funded 1 yr RA gig or something along those lines?

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Academia in employments stats

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:22 pm

dextermorgan wrote:It is not easy for someone who had a PhD prior to law school to land academia in their old field btw. It's actually incredibly hard because they are generally viewed as abandoning the field.


I would imagine that it depends on the specific circumstances and how much of a gap is between the PhD and JD. If they're back-to-back and their research agenda blends both together really, I wouldn't think that candidate would be judged too harshly.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Academia in employments stats

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:24 pm

Br3v wrote:So general consensus is that it is probably bad? As in school funded 1 yr RA gig or something along those lines?


Yes, I believe it is typically more administrative stuff, either full-term or temporary.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Academia in employments stats

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:30 pm

Doorkeeper wrote:I would assume it means all people who are employed by academia = VAPs, Fellowships, Lecturers, Professors. This does not include people going to get their PhDs, but people currently employed by a law school for an academic position (not administration).


Barely anyone goes straight into a tenured-track prof position right after law school. Same for lecturers and adjuncts. Not many people go straight into VAPS either. The by far most common thing for wannabe-academics is a clerkship. Then some jump to VAPS, some jump to law firms, some jump to prestigious government jobs, some to fellowships, some to PhDs. And then they go on the market.

Law schools are reporting employment numbers for currently graduating students, not students who are 2-5 years out.

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Academia in employments stats

Postby Doorkeeper » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:34 pm

bk1 wrote:It is generally not good employment (aka not what doorkeeper said). Generally it tends to be people who are temporarily employed by the law school to boost its employment stats.

Isn't that "school funded" vs. academia?

Also, academia tallies for HYS would be a higher if it included temporary, school-funded positions. At least for H there are over 30 such positions that I know of.

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Br3v
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Re: Academia in employments stats

Postby Br3v » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:35 pm

Yeah my understanding was that VAPs were becoming more and more the way of the future with all the hesitation to hiring long term. Thus almost becoming a necessary and relativley solid step towards getting a tenure track offer.

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Br3v
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Re: Academia in employments stats

Postby Br3v » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:36 pm

Doorkeeper wrote:
bk1 wrote:It is generally not good employment (aka not what doorkeeper said). Generally it tends to be people who are temporarily employed by the law school to boost its employment stats.

Isn't that "school funded" vs. academia?

Also, academia tallies for HYS would be a higher if it included temporary, school-funded positions. At least for H there are over 30 such positions that I know of.


That's what I would think, but I am just hesitant because I often hear stories making it seem like employment stats are the Wild West and schools can call jobs whatever they want to call them.

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dextermorgan
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Re: Academia in employments stats

Postby dextermorgan » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:38 pm

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
dextermorgan wrote:It is not easy for someone who had a PhD prior to law school to land academia in their old field btw. It's actually incredibly hard because they are generally viewed as abandoning the field.


I would imagine that it depends on the specific circumstances and how much of a gap is between the PhD and JD. If they're back-to-back and their research agenda blends both together really, I wouldn't think that candidate would be judged too harshly.

Yeah, some fields may be okay with it, but most search committees are pretty hardcore into their fields. The usual path is JD then PhD if someone wants to go into academia.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Academia in employments stats

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:57 am

dextermorgan wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
dextermorgan wrote:It is not easy for someone who had a PhD prior to law school to land academia in their old field btw. It's actually incredibly hard because they are generally viewed as abandoning the field.


I would imagine that it depends on the specific circumstances and how much of a gap is between the PhD and JD. If they're back-to-back and their research agenda blends both together really, I wouldn't think that candidate would be judged too harshly.

Yeah, some fields may be okay with it, but most search committees are pretty hardcore into their fields. The usual path is JD then PhD if someone wants to go into academia.


Yeah, I'm really only familiar with law school academia. And from what I've experienced, as long as you are using the law and it is a part of your work, that is what matters. And for legal academia, I've seen a fair amount of PhD-->JD (I mean just look at furman scholars), though I agree that I've seen more JD-->PhD.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Academia in employments stats

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:00 am

Br3v wrote:Yeah my understanding was that VAPs were becoming more and more the way of the future with all the hesitation to hiring long term. Thus almost becoming a necessary and relativley solid step towards getting a tenure track offer.


Committees just have higher expectations when it comes to both quality and quantity of publications. Thus, a lot of people need extra time to produce quality stuff. VAPs and other various fellowships (some are just purely research-grant like positions) give candidates a chance to do this.




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