JD Difficulty/Rigor = BS in the Natural Sciences?

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bdubs
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Re: JD Difficulty/Rigor = BS in the Natural Sciences?

Postby bdubs » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:34 pm

There are two kinds of law content: rule-based (contracts) and conceptual (con law). Rule based law is a lot like chemistry and could be compared to a bachelors level class. Conceptual content is much more nuanced and analogous to philosophy. From what i've seen lower tier schools tend to focus more on rule based law (they test to ensure that graduates can pass the bar). T-14s tend to focus much more on conceptual legal issues. Conceptual law can be "harder" because there is no right answer, only answers that are less wrong. As others have said, law school is never going to be easy because of the curve but what you've heard is really only relevant to the rule based content.

09042014
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Re: JD Difficulty/Rigor = BS in the Natural Sciences?

Postby 09042014 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:35 pm

dingbat wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:The whole "we need more STEM MAJORS!" trolling people do is insane. There is a reason I'll make twice as much as a lawyer than I would has an engineer. There really isn't a lack of engineers.

there isn't a lack of lawyers either


There is somewhat of a lack of competent ones.

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dingbat
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Re: JD Difficulty/Rigor = BS in the Natural Sciences?

Postby dingbat » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:37 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
dingbat wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:The whole "we need more STEM MAJORS!" trolling people do is insane. There is a reason I'll make twice as much as a lawyer than I would has an engineer. There really isn't a lack of engineers.

there isn't a lack of lawyers either


There is somewhat of a lack of competent ones.

well, you're out of luck then :P
bdubs wrote:There are two kinds of law content: rule-based (contracts) and conceptual (con law). Rule based law is a lot like chemistry and could be compared to a bachelors level class. Conceptual content is much more nuanced and analogous to philosophy. From what i've seen lower tier schools tend to focus more on rule based law (they test to ensure that graduates can pass the bar). T-14s tend to focus much more on conceptual legal issues. Conceptual law can be "harder" because there is no right answer, only answers that are less wrong. As others have said, law school is never going to be easy because of the curve but what you've heard is really only relevant to the rule based content.
I'd say just about all law is rule based

09042014
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Re: JD Difficulty/Rigor = BS in the Natural Sciences?

Postby 09042014 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:40 pm

dingbat wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
dingbat wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:The whole "we need more STEM MAJORS!" trolling people do is insane. There is a reason I'll make twice as much as a lawyer than I would has an engineer. There really isn't a lack of engineers.

there isn't a lack of lawyers either


There is somewhat of a lack of competent ones.

well, you're out of luck then :P
bdubs wrote:There are two kinds of law content: rule-based (contracts) and conceptual (con law). Rule based law is a lot like chemistry and could be compared to a bachelors level class. Conceptual content is much more nuanced and analogous to philosophy. From what i've seen lower tier schools tend to focus more on rule based law (they test to ensure that graduates can pass the bar). T-14s tend to focus much more on conceptual legal issues. Conceptual law can be "harder" because there is no right answer, only answers that are less wrong. As others have said, law school is never going to be easy because of the curve but what you've heard is really only relevant to the rule based content.
I'd say just about all law is rule based


I'm hoping to hide my incompetence under wraps.

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scifiguy
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Re: JD Difficulty/Rigor = BS in the Natural Sciences?

Postby scifiguy » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:17 pm

bdubs wrote:There are two kinds of law content: rule-based (contracts) and conceptual (con law). Rule based law is a lot like chemistry and could be compared to a bachelors level class. Conceptual content is much more nuanced and analogous to philosophy. From what i've seen lower tier schools tend to focus more on rule based law (they test to ensure that graduates can pass the bar). T-14s tend to focus much more on conceptual legal issues. Conceptual law can be "harder" because there is no right answer, only answers that are less wrong. As others have said, law school is never going to be easy because of the curve but what you've heard is really only relevant to the rule based content.



If this is asking too much, then feel free to ignore. But I was just curious if you might be able to give a quick example of a "rule-based" law question/problem versus what you called a "conceptual" law question/problem?

Just having a concrete example of the difference may help with seeing it better. :) But, still very interesting. Thanks!

bdubs
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Re: JD Difficulty/Rigor = BS in the Natural Sciences?

Postby bdubs » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:38 pm

scifiguy wrote:
bdubs wrote:There are two kinds of law content: rule-based (contracts) and conceptual (con law). Rule based law is a lot like chemistry and could be compared to a bachelors level class. Conceptual content is much more nuanced and analogous to philosophy. From what i've seen lower tier schools tend to focus more on rule based law (they test to ensure that graduates can pass the bar). T-14s tend to focus much more on conceptual legal issues. Conceptual law can be "harder" because there is no right answer, only answers that are less wrong. As others have said, law school is never going to be easy because of the curve but what you've heard is really only relevant to the rule based content.



If this is asking too much, then feel free to ignore. But I was just curious if you might be able to give a quick example of a "rule-based" law question/problem versus what you called a "conceptual" law question/problem?

Just having a concrete example of the difference may help with seeing it better. :) But, still very interesting. Thanks!


A rule based issue is figuring out the applicable rule from the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure (http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/) or which part of the UCC (http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/ucc.table.html) applies to a contracts issue. Memorizing the text of the rules and being able to identify which one(s) apply is really at the core of it.

A conceptual issue would be something like what arguments there are to support an unenumerated right to privacy in the constitution, and how a right to an abortion does or doesn't fall under that right.

There are lots of things that are in between, where a judicial doctrine is clearly established but doesn't have clear boundaries. In those cases you tend to memorize the fact pattern but then abstract away from the specifics and apply the concept.

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dingbat
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Re: JD Difficulty/Rigor = BS in the Natural Sciences?

Postby dingbat » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:44 pm

bdubs wrote:
scifiguy wrote:
bdubs wrote:There are two kinds of law content: rule-based (contracts) and conceptual (con law). Rule based law is a lot like chemistry and could be compared to a bachelors level class. Conceptual content is much more nuanced and analogous to philosophy. From what i've seen lower tier schools tend to focus more on rule based law (they test to ensure that graduates can pass the bar). T-14s tend to focus much more on conceptual legal issues. Conceptual law can be "harder" because there is no right answer, only answers that are less wrong. As others have said, law school is never going to be easy because of the curve but what you've heard is really only relevant to the rule based content.



If this is asking too much, then feel free to ignore. But I was just curious if you might be able to give a quick example of a "rule-based" law question/problem versus what you called a "conceptual" law question/problem?

Just having a concrete example of the difference may help with seeing it better. :) But, still very interesting. Thanks!


A rule based issue is figuring out the applicable rule from the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure (http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/) or which part of the UCC (http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/ucc.table.html) applies to a contracts issue. Memorizing the text of the rules and being able to identify which one(s) apply is really at the core of it.

A conceptual issue would be something like what arguments there are to support an unenumerated right to privacy in the constitution, and how a right to an abortion does or doesn't fall under that right.

There are lots of things that are in between, where a judicial doctrine is clearly established but doesn't have clear boundaries. In those cases you tend to memorize the fact pattern but then abstract away from the specifics and apply the concept.

Thank you. This makes sense (although I think it's all the same thing and you're just showing the two extremes in terms of clarity of law)

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scifiguy
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Re: JD Difficulty/Rigor = BS in the Natural Sciences?

Postby scifiguy » Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:55 pm

Very interesting. Thank you very much for shedding light on it and givng some examples.

I was just going to ask one last time about the nomenclature and memorization aspects of law I asked about earlier (and didn't seem to get any or much response from)?

Is there a difficult legal nomenclature that needs to be learned (as with medicine)? And is there much memorization involved (like with bio and chem)? I think one poster did say that finals were more about analysis than regurgitation. But what about nomenclature? And also in order to do that "analysis" do you have to have specific laws memorized (and if so, how many are we talking about...100's of laws?)?

If you guys have time to answer, I'd greatly be interested and very much appreciate it! Thank you again.
Best!

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dingbat
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Re: JD Difficulty/Rigor = BS in the Natural Sciences?

Postby dingbat » Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:11 pm

scifiguy wrote:Is there a difficult legal nomenclature that needs to be learned (as with medicine)? And is there much memorization involved (like with bio and chem)? I think one poster did say that finals were more about analysis than regurgitation. But what about nomenclature? And also in order to do that "analysis" do you have to have specific laws memorized (and if so, how many are we talking about...100's of laws?)?
There is some nomenclature you'll need to learn, but there's not a lot of it. There's also a lot of memorization involved, as you'll need to know all the rules and conditions (prongs/elements of crimes). You may need to memorize cases/rulings, for some professors. But, a lot of exams are open book, so you can get away with quickly looking shit up. However, you got to figure that everyone in the class is going to be able to regurgitate the rules come exam time and just doing so doesn't get you very far. Figure on being able to write the rules for a typical 1L class on maybe 2 sides of paper. But, knowing, for example, the 4 types of mens rea doesn't mean you understand the difference between intentionally and knowingly. Not only that, being able to figure out which rule to apply (issue spotting) and then figuring out how to apply it can be quite difficult. Being able to parse every last word of a hypothetical and figuring out arguments and counterarguments why a condition is or is not met is far more important than just knowing what the required condition is.

Pokemon
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Re: JD Difficulty/Rigor = BS in the Natural Sciences?

Postby Pokemon » Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:17 pm

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