What is government or public interest law really like?

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scifiguy
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What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby scifiguy » Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:27 pm

So I saw another thread titled, "What is big law really like." Just thought it mgiht be helpful for those of use learning about all areas of law to get a sense of what government law and public interest type of law is really like too.

How many hours would you have to work in gov. and pi law? What is the environment like? Do you have to be a rainmaker like in biglaw? Is it very competitive where people get "cut" each year in those fields? How is the salary?

Appreciate everyone's time and help.

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ph14
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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby ph14 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:26 pm

Interesting thread. Any government/public interest lawyers care to share their experiences?

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hume85
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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby hume85 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:34 pm

ph14 wrote:Interesting thread. Any government/public interest lawyers care to share their experiences?


I am also very interested to hear the experiences of government or public interest lawyers. Thank you in advance.

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scifiguy
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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby scifiguy » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:06 am

Some more questions:

-What % of your class doy ou need to graduate in in order to get these positions?
-Do these positions favor and select primarily from T14 the way biglaw does?
-Do you get these jobs from IL summer OCI? Or later on?

Thanks!

florida1949
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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby florida1949 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:55 pm

I found some of the information here to be helpful

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tekumamba
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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby tekumamba » Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:59 am

florida1949 wrote:I found some of the information here to be helpful



this.

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lisjjen
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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby lisjjen » Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:17 am

I've worked for the executive, judicial, and legislative branches of government, state and federal, in Washington DC, Austin, and my home state.

But, I have only had one legal job out of all of that, so I know what I'm talking about, but only kinda.

Whether GPA matters depends a lot on what you're trying to do and where. If you want a "sexy" agency in DC e.g. Securities and Exchange Commission, Department of Justice, et cetera, it is going to be every bit as difficult to snag as Skadden or Cravath. In fact, with as little government hiring is happening right now, you have to have great grades to be hired by any agency in DC with a few exceptions. I have heard of some friends getting picked up by lesser agencies like the EEOC with like a 3.1.

State government is an entirely different creature. I can only speak for Texas, but I would be surprised if most states operate differently. State government is a very local creature so they're going to hire people that they know and people who do a great job. They know that GPA is only one metric, so I know people with 2.8s who get hired on by very active and well respected state agencies. That doesn't mean it's easy, that means they made themselves familiar and appreciated by being proactive and proficient. Often, it's about getting your foot in the door and the way you can make your resume stick out as a 1L is by having done public work in the past.

Pay isn't that great (in Texas, state agencies start you off at like $40k a year with $3k raises a year and federal normally starts you anywhere from $55k-$80k a year), but after about 5-8 years, you can lateral into biglaw if you did a good job. Also, the hours are less in proportion to how far down the food chain you are. In DC, the hours at a top agency will be maybe 60 hours a week. At many middle of the road state agencies, you will have a 40 hour a week job unless you're in trial.

HTH

ETA: The guy on Reddit clearly knows more than me, but I have made it a point to avoid criminal law so I only know about the civil side o things.

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hume85
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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby hume85 » Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:12 am

lisjjen wrote:I've worked for the executive, judicial, and legislative branches of government, state and federal, in Washington DC, Austin, and my home state.

But, I have only had one legal job out of all of that, so I know what I'm talking about, but only kinda.

Whether GPA matters depends a lot on what you're trying to do and where. If you want a "sexy" agency in DC e.g. Securities and Exchange Commission, Department of Justice, et cetera, it is going to be every bit as difficult to snag as Skadden or Cravath. In fact, with as little government hiring is happening right now, you have to have great grades to be hired by any agency in DC with a few exceptions. I have heard of some friends getting picked up by lesser agencies like the EEOC with like a 3.1.

State government is an entirely different creature. I can only speak for Texas, but I would be surprised if most states operate differently. State government is a very local creature so they're going to hire people that they know and people who do a great job. They know that GPA is only one metric, so I know people with 2.8s who get hired on by very active and well respected state agencies. That doesn't mean it's easy, that means they made themselves familiar and appreciated by being proactive and proficient. Often, it's about getting your foot in the door and the way you can make your resume stick out as a 1L is by having done public work in the past.

Pay isn't that great (in Texas, state agencies start you off at like $40k a year with $3k raises a year and federal normally starts you anywhere from $55k-$80k a year), but after about 5-8 years, you can lateral into biglaw if you did a good job. Also, the hours are less in proportion to how far down the food chain you are. In DC, the hours at a top agency will be maybe 60 hours a week. At many middle of the road state agencies, you will have a 40 hour a week job unless you're in trial.

HTH

ETA: The guy on Reddit clearly knows more than me, but I have made it a point to avoid criminal law so I only know about the civil side o things.


Thank you so much for sharing. This post was tremendously helpful.

chevrondeference
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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby chevrondeference » Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:24 pm

I am an attorney at a fairly well-known federal agency. I would highly encourage people to pursue federal government work. I don't have any experience with state government.

I would say the average work week at my agency is 45-50 hours. Very few people work 60 hours or more. There is no analogue that I've seen to the "rainmaker" requirement in biglaw. Agencies typically either don't have clients, or don't need to actively solicit them (i.e., they represent other government agencies by default). It is not very competitive. It is rare to be fired. However, promotion typically depends on getting very good performance reviews. (This is within the framework of 45-50 hours of productive work a week, you don't need to work insane hours to get promoted and you aren't competing with your peers for promotion).

The salary is obviously lower than biglaw, but I think it's reasonable. Most agencies use the GS Scale. A first year attorney usually enters at GS-11, which is about $62,000/yr. It takes about a year to get promoted to GS-12 ($75,000) and another year to get promoted to GS-13 ($90,000). It varies by agency how long it takes to get to the higher grades (GS-14 - $105,000, and GS-15 - $120,000). Some agencies use different scales (for example, the financial regulators have a higher payscale). Benefits are very good (great health insurance, a good 401(k), and a fixed pension).

One major difference between biglaw and the federal government is the speed at which you take on responsibility. Federal agencies tend to be leanly staffed, which means you will be doing substantive legal work pretty much right away. Of course, this depends a lot on the specific agency, but I would say the work is generally more substantive for young attorneys at federal agencies than at big firms.

I would also note that government hiring is getting increasingly competitive. I think this is because the private legal market is unstable and many more people are turning to the "safer" public sector, while simultaneously the government has slowed its hiring due to budget uncertainties. The only real entry level opportunities are the agency honors programs, for which you apply during the Fall of 3L or through OCI.

Overall I think the federal government is a great place to work. It is a far cry from the hyper-intense workload of a young biglaw associate. The salary reflects this, but for most people is adequate.

I would also note - law students often think they will go to a big firm and be there forever. Many, many lawyers work at a firm for 3-5 years then transition to the federal government. Even if you end up at a firm, you should keep the government in mind as a good exit option.

I'm happy to answer other questions.

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wbrother
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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby wbrother » Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:34 pm

chevrondeference wrote:I am an attorney at a fairly well-known federal agency. I would highly encourage people to pursue federal government work. I don't have any experience with state government.

I would say the average work week at my agency is 45-50 hours. Very few people work 60 hours or more. There is no analogue that I've seen to the "rainmaker" requirement in biglaw. Agencies typically either don't have clients, or don't need to actively solicit them (i.e., they represent other government agencies by default). It is not very competitive. It is rare to be fired. However, promotion typically depends on getting very good performance reviews. (This is within the framework of 45-50 hours of productive work a week, you don't need to work insane hours to get promoted and you aren't competing with your peers for promotion).

The salary is obviously lower than biglaw, but I think it's reasonable. Most agencies use the GS Scale. A first year attorney usually enters at GS-11, which is about $62,000/yr. It takes about a year to get promoted to GS-12 ($75,000) and another year to get promoted to GS-13 ($90,000). It varies by agency how long it takes to get to the higher grades (GS-14 - $105,000, and GS-15 - $120,000). Some agencies use different scales (for example, the financial regulators have a higher payscale). Benefits are very good (great health insurance, a good 401(k), and a fixed pension).

One major difference between biglaw and the federal government is the speed at which you take on responsibility. Federal agencies tend to be leanly staffed, which means you will be doing substantive legal work pretty much right away. Of course, this depends a lot on the specific agency, but I would say the work is generally more substantive for young attorneys at federal agencies than at big firms.

I would also note that government hiring is getting increasingly competitive. I think this is because the private legal market is unstable and many more people are turning to the "safer" public sector, while simultaneously the government has slowed its hiring due to budget uncertainties. The only real entry level opportunities are the agency honors programs, for which you apply during the Fall of 3L or through OCI.

Overall I think the federal government is a great place to work. It is a far cry from the hyper-intense workload of a young biglaw associate. The salary reflects this, but for most people is adequate.

I would also note - law students often think they will go to a big firm and be there forever. Many, many lawyers work at a firm for 3-5 years then transition to the federal government. Even if you end up at a firm, you should keep the government in mind as a good exit option.

I'm happy to answer other questions.


Super helpful! Can anyone with experience comment on non-government Public Interest?

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Rahviveh
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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby Rahviveh » Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:41 pm

chevrondeference wrote:I am an attorney at a fairly well-known federal agency. I would highly encourage people to pursue federal government work. I don't have any experience with state government.

I would say the average work week at my agency is 45-50 hours. Very few people work 60 hours or more. There is no analogue that I've seen to the "rainmaker" requirement in biglaw. Agencies typically either don't have clients, or don't need to actively solicit them (i.e., they represent other government agencies by default). It is not very competitive. It is rare to be fired. However, promotion typically depends on getting very good performance reviews. (This is within the framework of 45-50 hours of productive work a week, you don't need to work insane hours to get promoted and you aren't competing with your peers for promotion).

The salary is obviously lower than biglaw, but I think it's reasonable. Most agencies use the GS Scale. A first year attorney usually enters at GS-11, which is about $62,000/yr. It takes about a year to get promoted to GS-12 ($75,000) and another year to get promoted to GS-13 ($90,000). It varies by agency how long it takes to get to the higher grades (GS-14 - $105,000, and GS-15 - $120,000). Some agencies use different scales (for example, the financial regulators have a higher payscale). Benefits are very good (great health insurance, a good 401(k), and a fixed pension).

One major difference between biglaw and the federal government is the speed at which you take on responsibility. Federal agencies tend to be leanly staffed, which means you will be doing substantive legal work pretty much right away. Of course, this depends a lot on the specific agency, but I would say the work is generally more substantive for young attorneys at federal agencies than at big firms.

I would also note that government hiring is getting increasingly competitive. I think this is because the private legal market is unstable and many more people are turning to the "safer" public sector, while simultaneously the government has slowed its hiring due to budget uncertainties. The only real entry level opportunities are the agency honors programs, for which you apply during the Fall of 3L or through OCI.

Overall I think the federal government is a great place to work. It is a far cry from the hyper-intense workload of a young biglaw associate. The salary reflects this, but for most people is adequate.

I would also note - law students often think they will go to a big firm and be there forever. Many, many lawyers work at a firm for 3-5 years then transition to the federal government. Even if you end up at a firm, you should keep the government in mind as a good exit option.

I'm happy to answer other questions.


This is great. Could you perhaps share what school you went to, grades, when you graduated, and how you got this position?

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AlanShore
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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby AlanShore » Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:49 pm

Thanks for this thread- very relevant to my interests.

Can anyone comment on the hierarchical competitiveness of the fed agencies or other public interest positions? I know DOJ, SEC are probably the most competitive-- are there any that are not AS competitive?

chevrondeference
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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby chevrondeference » Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:18 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
chevrondeference wrote:I am an attorney at a fairly well-known federal agency. I would highly encourage people to pursue federal government work. I don't have any experience with state government.

I would say the average work week at my agency is 45-50 hours. Very few people work 60 hours or more. There is no analogue that I've seen to the "rainmaker" requirement in biglaw. Agencies typically either don't have clients, or don't need to actively solicit them (i.e., they represent other government agencies by default). It is not very competitive. It is rare to be fired. However, promotion typically depends on getting very good performance reviews. (This is within the framework of 45-50 hours of productive work a week, you don't need to work insane hours to get promoted and you aren't competing with your peers for promotion).

The salary is obviously lower than biglaw, but I think it's reasonable. Most agencies use the GS Scale. A first year attorney usually enters at GS-11, which is about $62,000/yr. It takes about a year to get promoted to GS-12 ($75,000) and another year to get promoted to GS-13 ($90,000). It varies by agency how long it takes to get to the higher grades (GS-14 - $105,000, and GS-15 - $120,000). Some agencies use different scales (for example, the financial regulators have a higher payscale). Benefits are very good (great health insurance, a good 401(k), and a fixed pension).

One major difference between biglaw and the federal government is the speed at which you take on responsibility. Federal agencies tend to be leanly staffed, which means you will be doing substantive legal work pretty much right away. Of course, this depends a lot on the specific agency, but I would say the work is generally more substantive for young attorneys at federal agencies than at big firms.

I would also note that government hiring is getting increasingly competitive. I think this is because the private legal market is unstable and many more people are turning to the "safer" public sector, while simultaneously the government has slowed its hiring due to budget uncertainties. The only real entry level opportunities are the agency honors programs, for which you apply during the Fall of 3L or through OCI.

Overall I think the federal government is a great place to work. It is a far cry from the hyper-intense workload of a young biglaw associate. The salary reflects this, but for most people is adequate.

I would also note - law students often think they will go to a big firm and be there forever. Many, many lawyers work at a firm for 3-5 years then transition to the federal government. Even if you end up at a firm, you should keep the government in mind as a good exit option.

I'm happy to answer other questions.


This is great. Could you perhaps share what school you went to, grades, when you graduated, and how you got this position?


I'm not going to give specific information, but I will say that I had very good credentials. As I said, the process seems very competitive now (at least at the popular agencies). It seems that new hire profiles generally come from top 20 schools with very good grades and increasingly from federal clerkships. (Clerking has pretty much always been required for DOJ Honors, but it matters for other agencies as well.) If you want to do a federal government honors program, I would focus on doing as well as possible in your classes and getting a good position on a journal (law review being the most helpful).

I do have a few more thoughts on how to get a federal government job. First, most agencies are looking for public service oriented applicants. If you want to work for the federal government, you should do public interest work throughout law school, including your second summer. Really any kind of public interest is good, but working for a firm will leave you at a disadvantage. Also, although some do not, many agencies hire their summer interns after they graduate. It is usually easier to get a summer position and convert it to a full-time job than to apply for the first time as a 3L. Finally, most agencies will want to see a demonstrated interest in their area of law. This doesn't mean you have to live and breath that area throughout law school, but you need to have some coursework, internship, etc to demonstrate a legitimate interest.

Again, take this with a grain of salt because there are a ton of agencies and they all have different hiring practices. I would also recommend talking to a professor at your school who specializes in the agency's area of law. Professors sometimes have connections to the relevant agency.

AlanShore wrote:Thanks for this thread- very relevant to my interests.

Can anyone comment on the hierarchical competitiveness of the fed agencies or other public interest positions? I know DOJ, SEC are probably the most competitive-- are there any that are not AS competitive?


It's not cut and dry like law schools - different agencies look for different things. In terms of grades/school, the most competitive is certainly DOJ Honors, especially the litigating components (civil, civil rights, antitrust, environmental). After that, SEC, IRS, FTC, CFPB, FDIC, and probably FCC come to mind. Then there are less well-known agencies like Dept. of the Interior, and Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC). My guess is the least competitive are agencies like Department of Transportation or HUD - but on the other hand, DOT apparently conducted 150 interviews last year for 15 spots. Keep in mind also that someone who is competitive for FDIC is likely not competitive for Dept. of the Interior and vice versa. It's not like firms or law schools where you apply to reaches, targets, and safeties. There will likely be 2-4 agencies that fit with your interests and you should apply to all of them.

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scifiguy
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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby scifiguy » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:46 am

Out of curiosity, is there a way into government law from small law?

Is the only path through biglaw or straight out of law school? If a person someone didn't get government law right out of law school and also did not do biglaw, is there any known path into gov't law later on?

And the same for PI? TYVM!

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togepi
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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby togepi » Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:10 am

What are the normal routes to federal government work? And what softs matter aside from those?
Last edited by togepi on Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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sabanist
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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby sabanist » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:09 pm

Can you elaborate a little more on the biglaw -> government path? If summering with firms hurts you in entry level hiring, does working for one for several years hurt you as well?
If my dream is to end up spending the majority of my career at the DOJ, especially civil rights, what would you say is the best path for that? If I end up without a COA clerkship or DOJ SLIP spot, what should I do?

Thank you for the advice.

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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby bizzybone1313 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:19 pm

Bump. Does anyone know if it is true that for government positions one has to let them know of ALL past employment positions held? I have a douche bag former employer that has an ax to grind and would ruthlessly and relentlessly badmouth me. I would prefer to not have to list them. Or am I fucked from government positions forever because of this bullshit?

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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:46 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:Bump. Does anyone know if it is true that for government positions one has to let them know of ALL past employment positions held? I have a douche bag former employer that has an ax to grind and would ruthlessly and relentlessly badmouth me. I would prefer to not have to list them. Or am I fucked from government positions forever because of this bullshit?

If it's fedgov and you need a security clearance (which includes immigration), you have to report all your previous employment for the previous 10 years.

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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby paul554 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:19 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:Bump. Does anyone know if it is true that for government positions one has to let them know of ALL past employment positions held? I have a douche bag former employer that has an ax to grind and would ruthlessly and relentlessly badmouth me. I would prefer to not have to list them. Or am I fucked from government positions forever because of this bullshit?

If it's fedgov and you need a security clearance (which includes immigration), you have to report all your previous employment for the previous 10 years.


For the SF86 you also list periods of unemployment so that the entire 10 year stretch is covered, no time is unaccounted for. Once the form is done and filed it is assigned to a background investigator who will usually contact you for an in person interview. At this interview you can address any issues like a bad boss or such.

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okinawa
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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby okinawa » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:14 am

sabanist wrote:Can you elaborate a little more on the biglaw -> government path? If summering with firms hurts you in entry level hiring, does working for one for several years hurt you as well?
If my dream is to end up spending the majority of my career at the DOJ, especially civil rights, what would you say is the best path for that? If I end up without a COA clerkship or DOJ SLIP spot, what should I do?

Thank you for the advice.


There are a lot of firm -> DOJ -> firm jumping around in certain areas (securities, white collar, antitrust) so in some cases, a firm helps rather than hurts.

DOJ Civil Rights is tough tough tough. You should plan on needing to clerk, coming from a great school, and having a rockstar resume (generally speaking).

I am at a field office of a large agency and I spent my 2L summer in biglaw. It wasn't even a thing AT ALL in hiring, because I spent my 1L summer in government, interned during the school year at several government agencies, and took administrative law/government courses. It was easy to tell them that I tried out a big firm and it wasn't a great fit, which was absolutely true.

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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby andythefir » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:33 am

As an undergrad I worked in a federal agency in a office of JD-preferred positions. The folks I knew there were not terribly stressed for the most part and almost every single one was 830-5 and left at 5 right on the nose every single day. I think the pay was about $40k-80k unless you got a manager position which bumped up to $100k or so.

It's probably different for JD required but in that office I'd say it was 80% former military and almost every non-former military was a URM.

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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby magp90 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:58 am

togepi wrote:What are the normal routes to federal government work? And what softs matter aside from those?


I'm interested in this as well. Public interest law is not discussed as often as Biglaw, so I'm a little less informed about what kind track you would need to be on to accomplish that. What kind of summer internships are recommended?

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okinawa
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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby okinawa » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:06 am

magp90 wrote:
togepi wrote:What are the normal routes to federal government work? And what softs matter aside from those?


I'm interested in this as well. Public interest law is not discussed as often as Biglaw, so I'm a little less informed about what kind track you would need to be on to accomplish that. What kind of summer internships are recommended?


If you want to work at a specific agency, interning at that agency is the best option. Second best is an agency that does similar work. You have to be careful, because some are controversial in some areas of law. Exact same advice for public interest--intern where you want to work and if you can't, intern somewhere that does the same thing.

Different areas have very different things to watch out for. Public defenders and environmental activist groups, for example, almost always want true believers, and an internship with the government may shut you out of one of those options.
Last edited by okinawa on Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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JXander
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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby JXander » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:06 am

This thread is fantastic. Thank you to everyone for sharing.

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okinawa
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Re: What is government or public interest law really like?

Postby okinawa » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:12 am

And as far as "softs" go, national security or military positions look very favorably on military service. I've never personally met someone in Labor or Environmental Law from a non-corporate side (working for a union or activist group) that didn't major in something related and work in the area before law school.

I've found prosecutors and prosecutorial agencies to be some of the least rigid when it comes to softs and background, so long as you demonstrate an interest during law school, have at least one relevant internship, and take the relevant coursework.




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