Why do you wanna go to law school?

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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Mr. Pancakes
Posts: 1234
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:11 pm

Re: Why do you wanna go to law school?

Postby Mr. Pancakes » Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:06 pm

PDaddy wrote:
tepper wrote:0Ls, do you guys actually have any clue about why you wanna attend law school? I bet most of you don't know a thing about law school or the industry in general.


I agree, but my agreement must be qualified. People have the right to pursue things they know little about, and we have no right to assume that little exposure means failure or unhappiness. Nevertheless, if most of these people knew about the field they would not want to be lawyers. Many people just want the power that comes with saying, "I'm a lawyer" - whatever that may be. I will give most TLSers the benefit of the doubt on that one.

Here's some truth: The law doesn't work the way you think it does.

In the end, truth has little or nothing to do with case outcomes, contract negotiations, etc. The law is about pragmatism...what is the shortest, easiest route to a resolution, regardless of what is "just" or equitable. This means that the side telling the truth often loses because the other side tells a better story. The law is not about truth, it is about which side tells the better story. On rare occasion, the best story also happens to be the truth, and this is when justice occurs.

Contract negotiations are about each side leaving with as much of its own shirt as possible, as opposed to doing what's best for all sides. Increasingly, case-management concerns - the reduction or minimization of court docket loads - dictate the decisions judges make during motion practice, motions in limine, interlocutory decisions, at summary judgment, and when deciding motions for reconsideration.

Judges are prejudiced, i.e. they will, first and foremost, make decisions that are mostly based on their personal preferences and politics as opposed to what is in society's best interest. The latter is usually a consideration only to the degree that the former allows.

Judges lie! Most of them abuse their discretion, and it is their prejudices and preferences that cause them to do so. This means that they often tailor their decisions, most of which are written by their clerks, towards reducing the likelihood of successful appeals.

The bench is a fraternity in which judges regard each other as brothers, and I DO mean "brothers". This is why few appeals courts will actually call judges to task for abuse of discretion even though most judges abuse their discretion. Sexism is rampant in the legal field, but I digress.

Some judges are corrupt! Yes, those myths about judges being corrupted by drug kingpins, robber barons, corrupt politicians and wealthy civic and business leaders are, unfortunately, true! Judges DO play golf. Judges own property and run businesses. Judges vote! Judges invest in stocks, etc. Judges have "interests" that can be affected by decisions made in the courts...and they are human beings. They will act in their self-interest when push comes to shove. They will ignore conflicts of interest - if they can get away with it.

Lawyers lie! They do so because they know the courts do not have time to police lawyer misconduct, contempt, fraud upon the court, spoliation of evidence, perjury, witness-tampering, etc. This is a frequent occurrence, and it happens in almost every case. Lawyers LIE! They lie in declarations, they lie when arguing motions, and they lie in court. It isn't just a few of them, it's MOST of them. When you meet a good lawyer who didn't sleep through ethics you will think he/she is crazy or you are.

Witnesses lie, and witness-tampering (bribery and coercion) is more common than you might think. Witnesses lie, recant, change their stories, or try their best to disappear - even when they have claimed they are ready to testify in the name of truth and justice. Don't expect reliable witnesses to jump into your lap, because they won't. They will lie in depositions, and they will lie in court.

Plaintiffs who have been wronged will become outcasts, and if they are your clients, you must counsel them to expect it.

Even the most altruistic lawyers, the ones who joined the profession to fight the good fight (this includes many of you!) soon change their values and succumb to the practical concerns of the profession. They decide to take a case based strictly on risk levels and damages. Aggrieved plaintiffs and defendants with sketchy backgrounds do not get justice, even though they are entitled to it. You will reject as a client the wrongfully terminated Hispanic man with the 8-year-old shoplifting conviction because the jury may not trust him. You will not represent a housing discrimination victim because housing discrimination cases typically have low damages, and that doesn't amount to a huge payday for you.

You biglaw buffs aren't immune to any of this either. Very early in your careers, you'll be propositioned and sexually harassed by your bosses if you look good. Sadly, most of the women, and some of the men will acquiesce to the demands. Partners will coerce you to lie to other partners, pit you against other partners. They will "ask" you to set up first-year associates they don't like, and remind you very politely that your career depends on your cooperation. They will pawn off on you all of their grunt-work so that they can enjoy more time at the Harvard Club, and then tell you to lie about it.

The firm will only care how much money and how many clients you bring in. They want billables and high-rollers from you, and nothing else. When and if you go to court, you had better win, otherwise that's a lost client...and your ass (i.e. your job). When you negotiate a contract, you had better sneak in language that advantages your firm and client, otherwise that's a lost client...and your ass!

Your needs, your family, your children...they come last. If you do not act accordingly, that's your ass!

If you discover a judge acting corruptly, one who has been friendly to your firm, you had better ignore it - client be damned - or that's your ass!

Drug and alcohol abuse is rampant, as are the patronage of prostitutes and gambling halls. Lawyers are a miserable lot. You will meet very few lawyers who actually love or even remotely like what they do, because they know all of the above information.

I could wax on forever about the underbelly of the law, but my general point here is that nothing can prepare you for what you will experience once you are out. The justice system is about anything BUT justice. It's about a lot of other things...money...power...convenience...public images...egos...politics...pragmatism...hand-washing...back-scratching...bribery...coercion...dishonesty and other things, but it is NOT about justice!

You are going to rack up several tens of thousands of dollars in debt to enter that profession. Sure you want to do this? I know what my answer is/was, but I also know that most of you will regret your decisions to enter law.

Still, I respect your right to decide what you think is best for you.
I have an inverted penis

Image

User avatar
Stevus
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:36 am

Re: Why do you wanna go to law school?

Postby Stevus » Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:27 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:
tepper wrote:
CyanIdes Of March wrote:I can't tell if you're just a relentless douche bag or a constantly bored troll. Either way you suck as a human being.


I'm cooler than you.


I hope you get cancer. Then, on the way to the hospital, I hope you trip out of your car, fall on the ground, and have your right eye gouged out by a piece of broken glass. As you lie there screaming in pain with a gouged eye and metastasizing tumor cells all over your body, I hope pigeons shit incessantly into your mouth. As you gag your last pigeon-shit filled breath while bleeding out, I want your last thought to revolve around the deep regret you have for not getting a high enough GPA and/or LSAT score to get into a T14 law school.


I think I had this exact fact pattern on a proximate cause exam question

tepper
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:18 am

Re: Why do you wanna go to law school?

Postby tepper » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:25 pm

PDaddy wrote:
tepper wrote:0Ls, do you guys actually have any clue about why you wanna attend law school? I bet most of you don't know a thing about law school or the industry in general.


I agree, but my agreement must be qualified. People have the right to pursue things they know little about, and we have no right to assume that little exposure means failure or unhappiness. Nevertheless, if most of these people knew about the field they would not want to be lawyers. Many people just want the power that comes with saying, "I'm a lawyer" - whatever that may be. I will give most TLSers the benefit of the doubt on that one.

Here's some truth: The law doesn't work the way you think it does.

In the end, truth has little or nothing to do with case outcomes, contract negotiations, etc. The law is about pragmatism...what is the shortest, easiest route to a resolution, regardless of what is "just" or equitable. This means that the side telling the truth often loses because the other side tells a better story. The law is not about truth, it is about which side tells the better story. On rare occasion, the best story also happens to be the truth, and this is when justice occurs.

Contract negotiations are about each side leaving with as much of its own shirt as possible, as opposed to doing what's best for all sides. Increasingly, case-management concerns - the reduction or minimization of court docket loads - dictate the decisions judges make during motion practice, motions in limine, interlocutory decisions, at summary judgment, and when deciding motions for reconsideration.

Judges are prejudiced, i.e. they will, first and foremost, make decisions that are mostly based on their personal preferences and politics as opposed to what is in society's best interest. The latter is usually a consideration only to the degree that the former allows.

Judges lie! Most of them abuse their discretion, and it is their prejudices and preferences that cause them to do so. This means that they often tailor their decisions, most of which are written by their clerks, towards reducing the likelihood of successful appeals.

The bench is a fraternity in which judges regard each other as brothers, and I DO mean "brothers". This is why few appeals courts will actually call judges to task for abuse of discretion even though most judges abuse their discretion. Sexism is rampant in the legal field, but I digress.

Some judges are corrupt! Yes, those myths about judges being corrupted by drug kingpins, robber barons, corrupt politicians and wealthy civic and business leaders are, unfortunately, true! Judges DO play golf. Judges own property and run businesses. Judges vote! Judges invest in stocks, etc. Judges have "interests" that can be affected by decisions made in the courts...and they are human beings. They will act in their self-interest when push comes to shove. They will ignore conflicts of interest - if they can get away with it.

Lawyers lie! They do so because they know the courts do not have time to police lawyer misconduct, contempt, fraud upon the court, spoliation of evidence, perjury, witness-tampering, etc. This is a frequent occurrence, and it happens in almost every case. Lawyers LIE! They lie in declarations, they lie when arguing motions, and they lie in court. It isn't just a few of them, it's MOST of them. When you meet a good lawyer who didn't sleep through ethics you will think he/she is crazy or you are.

Witnesses lie, and witness-tampering (bribery and coercion) is more common than you might think. Witnesses lie, recant, change their stories, or try their best to disappear - even when they have claimed they are ready to testify in the name of truth and justice. Don't expect reliable witnesses to jump into your lap, because they won't. They will lie in depositions, and they will lie in court.

Plaintiffs who have been wronged will become outcasts, and if they are your clients, you must counsel them to expect it.

Even the most altruistic lawyers, the ones who joined the profession to fight the good fight (this includes many of you!) soon change their values and succumb to the practical concerns of the profession. They decide to take a case based strictly on risk levels and damages. Aggrieved plaintiffs and defendants with sketchy backgrounds do not get justice, even though they are entitled to it. You will reject as a client the wrongfully terminated Hispanic man with the 8-year-old shoplifting conviction because the jury may not trust him. You will not represent a housing discrimination victim because housing discrimination cases typically have low damages, and that doesn't amount to a huge payday for you.

You biglaw buffs aren't immune to any of this either. Very early in your careers, you'll be propositioned and sexually harassed by your bosses if you look good. Sadly, most of the women, and some of the men will acquiesce to the demands. Partners will coerce you to lie to other partners, pit you against other partners. They will "ask" you to set up first-year associates they don't like, and remind you very politely that your career depends on your cooperation. They will pawn off on you all of their grunt-work so that they can enjoy more time at the Harvard Club, and then tell you to lie about it.

The firm will only care how much money and how many clients you bring in. They want billables and high-rollers from you, and nothing else. When and if you go to court, you had better win, otherwise that's a lost client...and your ass (i.e. your job). When you negotiate a contract, you had better sneak in language that advantages your firm and client, otherwise that's a lost client...and your ass!

Your needs, your family, your children...they come last. If you do not act accordingly, that's your ass!

If you discover a judge acting corruptly, one who has been friendly to your firm, you had better ignore it - client be damned - or that's your ass!

Drug and alcohol abuse is rampant, as are the patronage of prostitutes and gambling halls. Lawyers are a miserable lot. You will meet very few lawyers who actually love or even remotely like what they do, because they know all of the above information.

I could wax on forever about the underbelly of the law, but my general point here is that nothing can prepare you for what you will experience once you are out. The justice system is about anything BUT justice. It's about a lot of other things...money...power...convenience...public images...egos...politics...pragmatism...hand-washing...back-scratching...bribery...coercion...dishonesty and other things, but it is NOT about justice!

You are going to rack up several tens of thousands of dollars in debt to enter that profession. Sure you want to do this? I know what my answer is/was, but I also know that most of you will regret your decisions to enter law.

Still, I respect your right to decide what you think is best for you.



get a life

User avatar
vpintz
Posts: 1408
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:51 am

Re: Why do you wanna go to law school?

Postby vpintz » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:44 pm

tepper wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
tepper wrote:0Ls, do you guys actually have any clue about why you wanna attend law school? I bet most of you don't know a thing about law school or the industry in general.


I agree, but my agreement must be qualified. People have the right to pursue things they know little about, and we have no right to assume that little exposure means failure or unhappiness. Nevertheless, if most of these people knew about the field they would not want to be lawyers. Many people just want the power that comes with saying, "I'm a lawyer" - whatever that may be. I will give most TLSers the benefit of the doubt on that one.

Here's some truth: The law doesn't work the way you think it does.

In the end, truth has little or nothing to do with case outcomes, contract negotiations, etc. The law is about pragmatism...what is the shortest, easiest route to a resolution, regardless of what is "just" or equitable. This means that the side telling the truth often loses because the other side tells a better story. The law is not about truth, it is about which side tells the better story. On rare occasion, the best story also happens to be the truth, and this is when justice occurs.

Contract negotiations are about each side leaving with as much of its own shirt as possible, as opposed to doing what's best for all sides. Increasingly, case-management concerns - the reduction or minimization of court docket loads - dictate the decisions judges make during motion practice, motions in limine, interlocutory decisions, at summary judgment, and when deciding motions for reconsideration.

Judges are prejudiced, i.e. they will, first and foremost, make decisions that are mostly based on their personal preferences and politics as opposed to what is in society's best interest. The latter is usually a consideration only to the degree that the former allows.

Judges lie! Most of them abuse their discretion, and it is their prejudices and preferences that cause them to do so. This means that they often tailor their decisions, most of which are written by their clerks, towards reducing the likelihood of successful appeals.

The bench is a fraternity in which judges regard each other as brothers, and I DO mean "brothers". This is why few appeals courts will actually call judges to task for abuse of discretion even though most judges abuse their discretion. Sexism is rampant in the legal field, but I digress.

Some judges are corrupt! Yes, those myths about judges being corrupted by drug kingpins, robber barons, corrupt politicians and wealthy civic and business leaders are, unfortunately, true! Judges DO play golf. Judges own property and run businesses. Judges vote! Judges invest in stocks, etc. Judges have "interests" that can be affected by decisions made in the courts...and they are human beings. They will act in their self-interest when push comes to shove. They will ignore conflicts of interest - if they can get away with it.

Lawyers lie! They do so because they know the courts do not have time to police lawyer misconduct, contempt, fraud upon the court, spoliation of evidence, perjury, witness-tampering, etc. This is a frequent occurrence, and it happens in almost every case. Lawyers LIE! They lie in declarations, they lie when arguing motions, and they lie in court. It isn't just a few of them, it's MOST of them. When you meet a good lawyer who didn't sleep through ethics you will think he/she is crazy or you are.

Witnesses lie, and witness-tampering (bribery and coercion) is more common than you might think. Witnesses lie, recant, change their stories, or try their best to disappear - even when they have claimed they are ready to testify in the name of truth and justice. Don't expect reliable witnesses to jump into your lap, because they won't. They will lie in depositions, and they will lie in court.

Plaintiffs who have been wronged will become outcasts, and if they are your clients, you must counsel them to expect it.

Even the most altruistic lawyers, the ones who joined the profession to fight the good fight (this includes many of you!) soon change their values and succumb to the practical concerns of the profession. They decide to take a case based strictly on risk levels and damages. Aggrieved plaintiffs and defendants with sketchy backgrounds do not get justice, even though they are entitled to it. You will reject as a client the wrongfully terminated Hispanic man with the 8-year-old shoplifting conviction because the jury may not trust him. You will not represent a housing discrimination victim because housing discrimination cases typically have low damages, and that doesn't amount to a huge payday for you.

You biglaw buffs aren't immune to any of this either. Very early in your careers, you'll be propositioned and sexually harassed by your bosses if you look good. Sadly, most of the women, and some of the men will acquiesce to the demands. Partners will coerce you to lie to other partners, pit you against other partners. They will "ask" you to set up first-year associates they don't like, and remind you very politely that your career depends on your cooperation. They will pawn off on you all of their grunt-work so that they can enjoy more time at the Harvard Club, and then tell you to lie about it.

The firm will only care how much money and how many clients you bring in. They want billables and high-rollers from you, and nothing else. When and if you go to court, you had better win, otherwise that's a lost client...and your ass (i.e. your job). When you negotiate a contract, you had better sneak in language that advantages your firm and client, otherwise that's a lost client...and your ass!

Your needs, your family, your children...they come last. If you do not act accordingly, that's your ass!

If you discover a judge acting corruptly, one who has been friendly to your firm, you had better ignore it - client be damned - or that's your ass!

Drug and alcohol abuse is rampant, as are the patronage of prostitutes and gambling halls. Lawyers are a miserable lot. You will meet very few lawyers who actually love or even remotely like what they do, because they know all of the above information.

I could wax on forever about the underbelly of the law, but my general point here is that nothing can prepare you for what you will experience once you are out. The justice system is about anything BUT justice. It's about a lot of other things...money...power...convenience...public images...egos...politics...pragmatism...hand-washing...back-scratching...bribery...coercion...dishonesty and other things, but it is NOT about justice!

You are going to rack up several tens of thousands of dollars in debt to enter that profession. Sure you want to do this? I know what my answer is/was, but I also know that most of you will regret your decisions to enter law.

Still, I respect your right to decide what you think is best for you.



get a life

you're the one starting stupid threads and he/she is the one who needs to get a life? lol just lol

tepper
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:18 am

Re: Why do you wanna go to law school?

Postby tepper » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:52 pm

User has been warned.
vpintz wrote:
tepper wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
tepper wrote:0Ls, do you guys actually have any clue about why you wanna attend law school? I bet most of you don't know a thing about law school or the industry in general.


I agree, but my agreement must be qualified. People have the right to pursue things they know little about, and we have no right to assume that little exposure means failure or unhappiness. Nevertheless, if most of these people knew about the field they would not want to be lawyers. Many people just want the power that comes with saying, "I'm a lawyer" - whatever that may be. I will give most TLSers the benefit of the doubt on that one.

Here's some truth: The law doesn't work the way you think it does.

In the end, truth has little or nothing to do with case outcomes, contract negotiations, etc. The law is about pragmatism...what is the shortest, easiest route to a resolution, regardless of what is "just" or equitable. This means that the side telling the truth often loses because the other side tells a better story. The law is not about truth, it is about which side tells the better story. On rare occasion, the best story also happens to be the truth, and this is when justice occurs.

Contract negotiations are about each side leaving with as much of its own shirt as possible, as opposed to doing what's best for all sides. Increasingly, case-management concerns - the reduction or minimization of court docket loads - dictate the decisions judges make during motion practice, motions in limine, interlocutory decisions, at summary judgment, and when deciding motions for reconsideration.

Judges are prejudiced, i.e. they will, first and foremost, make decisions that are mostly based on their personal preferences and politics as opposed to what is in society's best interest. The latter is usually a consideration only to the degree that the former allows.

Judges lie! Most of them abuse their discretion, and it is their prejudices and preferences that cause them to do so. This means that they often tailor their decisions, most of which are written by their clerks, towards reducing the likelihood of successful appeals.

The bench is a fraternity in which judges regard each other as brothers, and I DO mean "brothers". This is why few appeals courts will actually call judges to task for abuse of discretion even though most judges abuse their discretion. Sexism is rampant in the legal field, but I digress.

Some judges are corrupt! Yes, those myths about judges being corrupted by drug kingpins, robber barons, corrupt politicians and wealthy civic and business leaders are, unfortunately, true! Judges DO play golf. Judges own property and run businesses. Judges vote! Judges invest in stocks, etc. Judges have "interests" that can be affected by decisions made in the courts...and they are human beings. They will act in their self-interest when push comes to shove. They will ignore conflicts of interest - if they can get away with it.

Lawyers lie! They do so because they know the courts do not have time to police lawyer misconduct, contempt, fraud upon the court, spoliation of evidence, perjury, witness-tampering, etc. This is a frequent occurrence, and it happens in almost every case. Lawyers LIE! They lie in declarations, they lie when arguing motions, and they lie in court. It isn't just a few of them, it's MOST of them. When you meet a good lawyer who didn't sleep through ethics you will think he/she is crazy or you are.

Witnesses lie, and witness-tampering (bribery and coercion) is more common than you might think. Witnesses lie, recant, change their stories, or try their best to disappear - even when they have claimed they are ready to testify in the name of truth and justice. Don't expect reliable witnesses to jump into your lap, because they won't. They will lie in depositions, and they will lie in court.

Plaintiffs who have been wronged will become outcasts, and if they are your clients, you must counsel them to expect it.

Even the most altruistic lawyers, the ones who joined the profession to fight the good fight (this includes many of you!) soon change their values and succumb to the practical concerns of the profession. They decide to take a case based strictly on risk levels and damages. Aggrieved plaintiffs and defendants with sketchy backgrounds do not get justice, even though they are entitled to it. You will reject as a client the wrongfully terminated Hispanic man with the 8-year-old shoplifting conviction because the jury may not trust him. You will not represent a housing discrimination victim because housing discrimination cases typically have low damages, and that doesn't amount to a huge payday for you.

You biglaw buffs aren't immune to any of this either. Very early in your careers, you'll be propositioned and sexually harassed by your bosses if you look good. Sadly, most of the women, and some of the men will acquiesce to the demands. Partners will coerce you to lie to other partners, pit you against other partners. They will "ask" you to set up first-year associates they don't like, and remind you very politely that your career depends on your cooperation. They will pawn off on you all of their grunt-work so that they can enjoy more time at the Harvard Club, and then tell you to lie about it.

The firm will only care how much money and how many clients you bring in. They want billables and high-rollers from you, and nothing else. When and if you go to court, you had better win, otherwise that's a lost client...and your ass (i.e. your job). When you negotiate a contract, you had better sneak in language that advantages your firm and client, otherwise that's a lost client...and your ass!

Your needs, your family, your children...they come last. If you do not act accordingly, that's your ass!

If you discover a judge acting corruptly, one who has been friendly to your firm, you had better ignore it - client be damned - or that's your ass!

Drug and alcohol abuse is rampant, as are the patronage of prostitutes and gambling halls. Lawyers are a miserable lot. You will meet very few lawyers who actually love or even remotely like what they do, because they know all of the above information.

I could wax on forever about the underbelly of the law, but my general point here is that nothing can prepare you for what you will experience once you are out. The justice system is about anything BUT justice. It's about a lot of other things...money...power...convenience...public images...egos...politics...pragmatism...hand-washing...back-scratching...bribery...coercion...dishonesty and other things, but it is NOT about justice!

You are going to rack up several tens of thousands of dollars in debt to enter that profession. Sure you want to do this? I know what my answer is/was, but I also know that most of you will regret your decisions to enter law.

Still, I respect your right to decide what you think is best for you.



get a life

you're the one starting stupid threads and he/she is the one who needs to get a life? lol just lol


get a life

User avatar
WhiteyCakes
Posts: 1390
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:38 pm

Re: Why do you wanna go to law school?

Postby WhiteyCakes » Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:06 pm

Too much bold in this thread

071816
Posts: 5511
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:06 pm

Re: Why do you wanna go to law school?

Postby 071816 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:13 pm

PDaddy 4 Prez

User avatar
relevantfactor
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:13 pm

Re: Why do you wanna go to law school?

Postby relevantfactor » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:57 am

DELETED

Because I love to waste my time. It's my favorite hobby.

User avatar
Malakai
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 11:18 pm

Re: Why do you wanna go to law school?

Postby Malakai » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:51 am

Because I like to argue :roll:

User avatar
PDaddy
Posts: 2073
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:40 am

Re: Why do you wanna go to law school?

Postby PDaddy » Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:27 am

Once in awhile it is appropriate to give a serious, informative answer. Love Stephen Smith! :wink:




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