Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

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Baseball Fanatic
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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby Baseball Fanatic » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:43 pm

So all in all, if I want to pursue law, I should not let the bleak legal market and possible mountain of debt deter me?

rad lulz
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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby rad lulz » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:46 pm

Baseball Fanatic wrote:So all in all, if I want to pursue law, I should not let the bleak legal market and possible mountain of debt deter me?

You absolutely should. Come the fuck on.

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coldshoulder
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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby coldshoulder » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:47 pm

Baseball Fanatic wrote:So all in all, if I want to pursue law, I should not let the bleak legal market and possible mountain of debt deter me?


You should absolutely let it deter you. Make sure your grades and LSAT score are good enough to get into a great school with money, or a good school where you want to practice for next to nothing. Then consider it.

Otherwise, no fucking way.

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gyarados
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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby gyarados » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:50 pm

Baseball Fanatic wrote:With that being said, if I want to work in the DC area I should be looking at East Coast schools?

This kind of question is what makes people strike out at OCI. If you're not willing to work in New York, you shouldn't be going to law school in this market. Not that you can't shoot for DC too, but you have to hedge your bets.

ETA: And even New York you need medianish at a T14 to have a decent shot. Not sure what you need below that but it's obviously higher.

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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby Baseball Fanatic » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:53 pm

gyarados wrote:
Baseball Fanatic wrote:With that being said, if I want to work in the DC area I should be looking at East Coast schools?

This kind of question is what makes people strike out at OCI. If you're not willing to work in New York, you shouldn't be going to law school in this market. Not that you can't shoot for DC too, but you have to hedge your bets.

ETA: And even New York you need medianish at a T14 to have a decent shot. Not sure what you need below that but it's obviously higher.



I don't see how New York is the only place for people to practice law. There is Chicago, LA, San Francisco, plenty of other places that have a legal market and respected regional schools.

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androstan
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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby androstan » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:55 pm

gyarados wrote:
Baseball Fanatic wrote:With that being said, if I want to work in the DC area I should be looking at East Coast schools?

This kind of question is what makes people strike out at OCI. If you're not willing to work in New York, you shouldn't be going to law school in this market. Not that you can't shoot for DC too, but you have to hedge your bets.

ETA: And even New York you need medianish at a T14 to have a decent shot. Not sure what you need below that but it's obviously higher.


+1

I'm at GW. Based on anecdotal reports from 2Ls I know who went through OCI, to get biglaw in DC from here you have to be at the top of the class. But top third or so seems good enough for NYC if you bid wisely, interview well, and have a decent resume.
Last edited by androstan on Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rocío
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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby Rocío » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:55 pm

The private market is awful. Government and public interest jobs are becoming increasingly more difficult to get. States and counties are slashing their funding, and many federal government agencies are even more competitive because agencies are decreasing the size of their honors' classes. Finally, many public interest organizations are facing steep funding cuts (as LSC funds many of these organizations), and so hiring is way down. In sum: everywhere is hurting right now. Going to law school is absolutely not a decision to take lightly, and it is a terrible decision to go to law school simply because you don't know what else to do.

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IAFG
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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby IAFG » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:55 pm

Baseball Fanatic wrote:
gyarados wrote:
Baseball Fanatic wrote:With that being said, if I want to work in the DC area I should be looking at East Coast schools?

This kind of question is what makes people strike out at OCI. If you're not willing to work in New York, you shouldn't be going to law school in this market. Not that you can't shoot for DC too, but you have to hedge your bets.

ETA: And even New York you need medianish at a T14 to have a decent shot. Not sure what you need below that but it's obviously higher.



I don't see how New York is the only place for people to practice law. There is Chicago, LA, San Francisco, plenty of other places that have a legal market and respected regional schools.

The point is, geographical rigidity is bad for your earning potential.

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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby Baseball Fanatic » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:57 pm

makes sense. you guys are really helpful! :D

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rayiner
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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby rayiner » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:29 pm

Baseball Fanatic wrote:
gyarados wrote:
Baseball Fanatic wrote:With that being said, if I want to work in the DC area I should be looking at East Coast schools?

This kind of question is what makes people strike out at OCI. If you're not willing to work in New York, you shouldn't be going to law school in this market. Not that you can't shoot for DC too, but you have to hedge your bets.

ETA: And even New York you need medianish at a T14 to have a decent shot. Not sure what you need below that but it's obviously higher.



I don't see how New York is the only place for people to practice law. There is Chicago, LA, San Francisco, plenty of other places that have a legal market and respected regional schools.


I'd estimate that about 1/3 of all the big firm legal jobs are in NYC. NYC had ~2,000 summer associates the last couple of years. I don't think the whole country had more than 6,000.

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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby Baseball Fanatic » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:42 pm

Well maybe I am looking into the wrong market. I like DC because I like politics, but if the loot is in NYC, than that is why I need to be.

Which would be even better, back to Brooklyn, Home of the Dodgers. MY TEAM!!!!

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androstan
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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby androstan » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:45 pm

Baseball Fanatic wrote:Well maybe I am looking into the wrong market. I like DC because I like politics, but if the loot is in NYC, than that is why I need to be.

Which would be even better, back to Brooklyn, Home of the Dodgers. MY TEAM!!!!


Go to NYU, Columbia, or Cornell.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:00 pm

Yes OP it's that bad. I'm a 3L here at UVA and a massive amount of the class certainly does not have a firm job. Many have nothing and even more have something "undesirable" i.e not what they came to law school for. That being said it will put you in a better position than the average college graduate (a top 14 school at least).

And FYI below median top 14 is nothing special at all. If you land below median at a top 14 you might as well have gone to a good regional for free assuming you had that option and the top 14 wasn't free or close to it.

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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby Baseball Fanatic » Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:29 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Yes OP it's that bad. I'm a 3L here at UVA and a massive amount of the class certainly does not have a firm job. Many have nothing and even more have something "undesirable" i.e not what they came to law school for. That being said it will put you in a better position than the average college graduate (a top 14 school at least).

And FYI below median top 14 is nothing special at all. If you land below median at a top 14 you might as well have gone to a good regional for free assuming you had that option and the top 14 wasn't free or close to it.


Even if one were to go to a Regional school for free, how can one compete for a job in BigLaw? An attorney who went to a lower ranked law school, outside the T30 but in the T50, told me he got asked a question by his interviewer at the firm he is currently at. This is what he told me:

The interviewer asked me, "Why should we hire you when we have a pool of competitive prospects who have gone to more recognized schools?" I replied, "are you basing your hiring decisions on what schools prospects have gone to or are you hiring people based upon who can do the job and bring the necessary skills for it?"

To me it is so sad that firms are so wrapped up in hiring someone from a T14 that they overlook potentially good lawyers who went to less reputable schools. I guess you take the good with the bad.

luthersloan
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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby luthersloan » Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:38 pm

It is not like firms want to hire people from good schools for the sake of it, it is just that it is extremely hard to tell who will be a good hire, and schools serve as a proxy (along of course with grades.)

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IAFG
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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby IAFG » Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:48 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Yes OP it's that bad. I'm a 3L here at UVA and a massive amount of the class certainly does not have a firm job. Many have nothing and even more have something "undesirable" i.e not what they came to law school for. That being said it will put you in a better position than the average college graduate (a top 14 school at least).

And FYI below median top 14 is nothing special at all. If you land below median at a top 14 you might as well have gone to a good regional for free assuming you had that option and the top 14 wasn't free or close to it.

See now, this doesn't make sense to me. If it turns out you weren't going to win at law school, what you should have done is not go to law school, not have gone to a worse law school, ended up below median and then still have struggled to find employment.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby Lawquacious » Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:58 pm

In answer to OP: No.

Baseball Fanatic
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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby Baseball Fanatic » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:00 pm

This median business, is killing me. I've been told that students hide books in the library to keep other students from using them. Can't we all just get along?

What if you go to a law school that does not issue grades, how will a employer judge you then compared to students who come from law schools with grades? I am ignorant on this, btw. So I could be wrong.

luthersloan
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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby luthersloan » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:03 pm

Unless that law school that does not give grades has a four letter name that starts with a Y, in general they will not hire you if you don't have grades. Not really sure how Northeastern works, but I think for most people it does not.

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gyarados
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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby gyarados » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:04 pm

Baseball Fanatic wrote:To me it is so sad that firms are so wrapped up in hiring someone from a T14 that they overlook potentially good lawyers who went to less reputable schools. I guess you take the good with the bad.

You have this all backwards. The kids at the bottom of my class (Chicago) can't get jobs. The kids at the top of the class at Hastings or Fordham can get really good jobs. A good school won't do shit for you if you don't have the grades.

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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby Baseball Fanatic » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:14 pm

gyarados wrote:
Baseball Fanatic wrote:To me it is so sad that firms are so wrapped up in hiring someone from a T14 that they overlook potentially good lawyers who went to less reputable schools. I guess you take the good with the bad.

You have this all backwards. The kids at the bottom of my class (Chicago) can't get jobs. The kids at the top of the class at Hastings or Fordham can get really good jobs. A good school won't do shit for you if you don't have the grades.


This is a good point. So a person should not be glamorized by the golden gates of the T14 if they cannot compete at a one and should settle at a lower ranked school where they can beat the students in their class?

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glitter178
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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby glitter178 » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:25 pm

Baseball Fanatic wrote:
gyarados wrote:
Baseball Fanatic wrote:To me it is so sad that firms are so wrapped up in hiring someone from a T14 that they overlook potentially good lawyers who went to less reputable schools. I guess you take the good with the bad.

You have this all backwards. The kids at the bottom of my class (Chicago) can't get jobs. The kids at the top of the class at Hastings or Fordham can get really good jobs. A good school won't do shit for you if you don't have the grades.


This is a good point. So a person should not be glamorized by the golden gates of the T14 if they cannot compete at a one and should settle at a lower ranked school where they can beat the students in their class?


No. Because you have no idea whether or not you are going to be able to "beat" those other students, and besides, all of those other students are trying to do the same thing.

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IAFG
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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby IAFG » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:44 pm

I am starting to suspect Baseball Fanatic is a ksllaw alt.

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manofjustice
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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby manofjustice » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:48 pm

OP, assuming you're not a troll: you don't sound at all like you want to be a lawyer. You have changed your mind, like, twice in two pages. You have zero vision of what you want to do when you get out of law school, what you want out of a career, and why...all you've done is ask "how bad is it?" and "is that a nice school?"...I mean, for God sake's, you asked the latter question of a poster who told you he'll be living in his car next year. We don't seem to be connecting with you. And who the fuck cares whether it's a nice school? You think we're paying money for a cool quad and great after-school activities? It's fucking law school. It's not "nice." It's a professional school. It's not "college."

On top of that, you are an inch away from making a tremendous factual blunder, essentially waving your hands at "the media" to assume the opposite of what is true. (Good luck with that when you're cold-called.) The question is: why? If you really wanted to be a lawyer, I could understand the rationalization. I think, in short, we need to ask: why are you here?

Because, honestly, if you don't want to be a lawyer or have a coherent vision for what you're doing in law school, you'll do bad in law school, you'll be another one of the hordes of poorly employable, strait-from-undergrad (I am assuming you are) students clogging the market. And we don't want you around. Find another career. And if you're lucky enough to get a job, you'll not do it well, and you won't make any money.

On top of that, you'll have a lot of debt.

So, don't go to law school.

Joeshan520
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Re: Is the scarcity of legal jobs fabricated?

Postby Joeshan520 » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:12 pm

When those of us at T14s see the healthy majority of our classmates still having good outcomes, this advice doesn't sound very... grounded in reality.

As an aside, there are a lot of reasons for GULC's FT LEGAL employment to be underwhelming.


I truly hope the best for you, and NU has done reasonable well at the V10 that I work at, but you have to define "good outcomes". If we assume that "good outcomes" from a T14 are big law positions or top notch clerkships that justify the debt then your response is the one that isn't grounded in reality. Less then 8% of law graduates hit the big law jackpot and in target markets like Chicago, NYC and California the cost of living isn't cheap. Therefore, to justify loans with compounding interest in huge markets one would have to consider the full time legal employment at the top of the pay scale.




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