4.0 transfer/ Lower T14/ current COA clerk taking questions

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jbell
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Re: 4.0 transfer/ Lower T14/ current COA clerk taking questions

Postby jbell » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:21 am

quiver wrote:Well if this isn't a flame...

How did you land your COA clerkship? Did you apply broadly and just get it on your stats? Did you have professors make calls? How much do you think being published helped?


I did apply broadly. I think that is probably the number one bit of advice I can give on getting the clerkship. I had a professor from 1l and one at my new school both make calls which I think helped me in getting the one that I actually got. I absolutely think that was a deciding factor in getting the job. As far as being published, I think it helped. In my opinion, I think it helped make up for the fact that I wasn't on the flagship law review.

jbell
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Re: 4.0 transfer/ Lower T14/ current COA clerk taking questions

Postby jbell » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:24 am

Lawquacious wrote:
bk1 wrote:
somewhatwayward wrote:Um, can we say flame?

I know for a fact that there are people with T14+scholly HYS acceptances numbers who have gone to T4s.


:?:

Still probably happens occasionally, but I would guess is very rare. It is more the language that makes me say lol... just came off as stilted to me (an odd thread title/intro).

But the numbers in themselves --> TTTT are at best suspect IMO. 3.85/180 --> TTTT. Ouch. And that means he transferred to T14 without getting scholly, when he could have been at HYS. But if not flame it sounds like it ended up working out for him at least.


Yeah, not my finest financial decision.... I got a full ride 1l year which obviously helps but still ended up with a significant debt load going to t14 at sticker. However, I'm still happy with the result. Nevertheless, there is a point at which being a transfer does hurt. I'm hoping the clerkship will change things but I wasn't able to get callbacks with the firms I wanted the most 3l OCI and I only got one interview with a judge on the DC Circuit (which I wanted the most) whereas if I hadn't been a transfer I feel like with my numbers I would have been much more competitive for those positions.

senorhosh
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Re: 4.0 transfer/ Lower T14/ current COA clerk taking questions

Postby senorhosh » Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:37 am

I think you're in a great position to answer my question since you are both an English and Physics major.

I'd expect an English major to generally have better writing/reading skills that might translate into better law school test grades (this might be debatable but not here to debate. I want to hear what OP says).
But then again, I'd say a science major has experience in dealing with difficult curves, large amounts of work, etc., giving an advantage in LS (again, debatable).

In terms of science vs. liberal arts, which major do you think would help prepare for law school better (if at all)? And why?

jbell
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Re: 4.0 transfer/ Lower T14/ current COA clerk taking questions

Postby jbell » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:19 am

senorhosh wrote:I think you're in a great position to answer my question since you are both an English and Physics major.

I'd expect an English major to generally have better writing/reading skills that might translate into better law school test grades (this might be debatable but not here to debate. I want to hear what OP says).
But then again, I'd say a science major has experience in dealing with difficult curves, large amounts of work, etc., giving an advantage in LS (again, debatable).

In terms of science vs. liberal arts, which major do you think would help prepare for law school better (if at all)? And why?


Good question.

Reading comprehension is obviously important. In an exam, you need to be able to organize your answer effectively and use transitions in order to maintain a coherent and well-focused answer. That will help you. However, beyond a certain baseline level of competency I don't think the skills that make a successful English major translate all that well to law school.

However, I think the skills you use to be a successful science major will. First, you do a significantly larger amount of work, generally a little more difficult, and in a short amount of time. This takes time management skills which are definitely important in law school and probably throughout your career. Further, the type of analytical thinking you do will help you be able to better analyze a problem.

Nevertheless, in my opinion, a science major can even hurt you if you don't learn to be comfortable with not trying to find the "right" answer. A lot of math and science people aren't comfortable with doing the best analysis from one position, the best analysis from another position, and realizing that there might not be a "right" answer. I would definitely try to avoid that tendency.

In sum, I would say that beyond a certain baseline level of competency regarding reading comprehension and writing ability, a science major (physics at least..can't really speak to any others) would be more helpful.

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Lawquacious
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Re: 4.0 transfer/ Lower T14/ current COA clerk taking questions

Postby Lawquacious » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:56 pm

jbell wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
bk1 wrote:
somewhatwayward wrote:Um, can we say flame?

I know for a fact that there are people with T14+scholly HYS acceptances numbers who have gone to T4s.


:?:

Still probably happens occasionally, but I would guess is very rare. It is more the language that makes me say lol... just came off as stilted to me (an odd thread title/intro).

But the numbers in themselves --> TTTT are at best suspect IMO. 3.85/180 --> TTTT. Ouch. And that means he transferred to T14 without getting scholly, when he could have been at HYS. But if not flame it sounds like it ended up working out for him at least.


Yeah, not my finest financial decision.... I got a full ride 1l year which obviously helps but still ended up with a significant debt load going to t14 at sticker. However, I'm still happy with the result. Nevertheless, there is a point at which being a transfer does hurt. I'm hoping the clerkship will change things but I wasn't able to get callbacks with the firms I wanted the most 3l OCI and I only got one interview with a judge on the DC Circuit (which I wanted the most) whereas if I hadn't been a transfer I feel like with my numbers I would have been much more competitive for those positions.



Well thanks for being a good sport about my comments in any case. I know there are ppl on here who def will appreciate feedback from someone who got Cir. level clerkship.

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cahwc12
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Re: 4.0 transfer/ Lower T14/ current COA clerk taking questions

Postby cahwc12 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:15 am

What was your wife doing that she wasn't willing to make a moving sacrifice for you?

OR

What were you thinking such that you spent the money to apply to HYS (and presumably other T14 and garnered aid) AND also had the fortitude to simultaneously apply to a local T4 school without having this decision determined long beforehand?


My significant other and I have already had our long conversation about what we would do in case I have the option to relocate to Minnesota or LA or Ithaca for law school, and I just can't imagine going "hey, I'm actually going to make a terrible investment in my education so that you don't have to make any sacrifices of your own."

Maybe I'm being selfish, but it seems to me that you had a terrible lapse in reasoning that still hasn't worked out in your favor as much as the original deal you walked away from.

How did you not have this conversation earlier, and/or what was the sticking point that prevented resolution to enable you to attend HYS?

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alwayssunnyinfl
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Re: 4.0 transfer/ Lower T14/ current COA clerk taking questions

Postby alwayssunnyinfl » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:22 am

cahwc12 wrote:What was your wife doing that she wasn't willing to make a moving sacrifice for you?

OR

What were you thinking such that you spent the money to apply to HYS (and presumably other T14 and garnered aid) AND also had the fortitude to simultaneously apply to a local T4 school without having this decision determined long beforehand?


My significant other and I have already had our long conversation about what we would do in case I have the option to relocate to Minnesota or LA or Ithaca for law school, and I just can't imagine going "hey, I'm actually going to make a terrible investment in my education so that you don't have to make any sacrifices of your own."

Maybe I'm being selfish, but it seems to me that you had a terrible lapse in reasoning that still hasn't worked out in your favor as much as the original deal you walked away from.

How did you not have this conversation earlier, and/or what was the sticking point that prevented resolution to enable you to attend HYS?

And why did this sticking point vanish after 1L?

jbell
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Re: 4.0 transfer/ Lower T14/ current COA clerk taking questions

Postby jbell » Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:25 pm

alwayssunnyinfl wrote:
cahwc12 wrote:What was your wife doing that she wasn't willing to make a moving sacrifice for you?

OR

What were you thinking such that you spent the money to apply to HYS (and presumably other T14 and garnered aid) AND also had the fortitude to simultaneously apply to a local T4 school without having this decision determined long beforehand?


My significant other and I have already had our long conversation about what we would do in case I have the option to relocate to Minnesota or LA or Ithaca for law school, and I just can't imagine going "hey, I'm actually going to make a terrible investment in my education so that you don't have to make any sacrifices of your own."

Maybe I'm being selfish, but it seems to me that you had a terrible lapse in reasoning that still hasn't worked out in your favor as much as the original deal you walked away from.

How did you not have this conversation earlier, and/or what was the sticking point that prevented resolution to enable you to attend HYS?

And why did this sticking point vanish after 1L?


At the time of application, my wife was doing finance stuff. She was doing well and has a good resume and all that so the plan was she would just get a new job wherever I got in and probably still do well. However, in the middle of the applications, she was offered a partnership at the firm she was with. She had only been there for four years, she was 25, the money was very nice (not millions and billions but very nice), so we thought her future looked bright indeed. I had a pretty strong desire to start my own firm anyways so we made a decision that we would stay. However, after the first year she was given the chance to help start a new office in a new city. The city had a t14 school so it seemed natural to apply and go if I got in.

We are currently apart for my clerkship but I will most likely be moving back to the city afterwards and will probably be working for a firm (my dreams of going solo have been put on hold...).

Nevertheless, you are right. I would most likely be in a very different situation had I just gone with the initial acceptance, but maybe my wife would be too which wouldn't be as good....

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cahwc12
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Re: 4.0 transfer/ Lower T14/ current COA clerk taking questions

Postby cahwc12 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:58 pm

interesting, thanks for sharing!

fingersxd
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Re: 4.0 transfer/ Lower T14/ current COA clerk taking questions

Postby fingersxd » Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:12 pm

jbell wrote:
ksllaw wrote:Congratulations on your grades, transfer, and clerkship. :D

Curious to know your undergraduate degree(s) and also why you made the decision to attend a tier 4 school? Were there other local law schools besides the tier 4 one?

And would you ever recommend anyone taking your particular path? Thanks and best of luck to you in your career!


My undergrad degree was in English and Physics.

There was a lower tier 1 school in the same city but after total scholarships it would've cost me about 40k more in the first year and 120k overall if I hadn't transferred so I went with the lower ranked one instead.



This seems unusual. What lower T1 wouldn't give you a full ride with your numbers where a TTTT would? It's clearly not a YP thing since they accepted you. I just don't get it.

Glad to hear things have worked out, but it honestly sounds like you made a bad decision and got lucky when your wife had the opportunity to work near a T14.

jbell
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Re: 4.0 transfer/ Lower T14/ current COA clerk taking questions

Postby jbell » Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:08 pm

fingersxd wrote:
jbell wrote:
ksllaw wrote:Congratulations on your grades, transfer, and clerkship. :D

Curious to know your undergraduate degree(s) and also why you made the decision to attend a tier 4 school? Were there other local law schools besides the tier 4 one?

And would you ever recommend anyone taking your particular path? Thanks and best of luck to you in your career!


My undergrad degree was in English and Physics.

There was a lower tier 1 school in the same city but after total scholarships it would've cost me about 40k more in the first year and 120k overall if I hadn't transferred so I went with the lower ranked one instead.



This seems unusual. What lower T1 wouldn't give you a full ride with your numbers where a TTTT would? It's clearly not a YP thing since they accepted you. I just don't get it.

Glad to hear things have worked out, but it honestly sounds like you made a bad decision and got lucky when your wife had the opportunity to work near a T14.


Eh, it depends what you want I think....Yeah, my career goals changed coming out of a t14 simply because of the increased options, but even out of a t4 I would have been able to get the market paying big firms in my secondary market with my gpa at the end of 1l. Plus, I was more interested in starting my own firm. Starting my own firm out of school is less attractive (and realistic in my opinion) in a big city than in my much smaller secondary market of my previous school which is a large reason I have changed my mind obviously. I give in sometimes to what might have been, but I really am not that upset at my decision. Even if I hadn't transferred I don't think I would really have regretted my decision. Eh, to each his own.

Finally, I don't really want this thread to be derailed into a "Did I make a mistake or am I just that awesome (my position obviously)" thread. I thought I may have some answers that may be helpful and from a rather unique perspective so I wanted to give back a bit....

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cahwc12
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Re: 4.0 transfer/ Lower T14/ current COA clerk taking questions

Postby cahwc12 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:27 pm

Okay I've got one for you:

Honest opinion on the difference between T4 law school education and T14 law school education: major, minor, somewhere in between?

jbell
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Re: 4.0 transfer/ Lower T14/ current COA clerk taking questions

Postby jbell » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:40 pm

cahwc12 wrote:Okay I've got one for you:

Honest opinion on the difference between T4 law school education and T14 law school education: major, minor, somewhere in between?


I'm glad you asked that one because I have spent a lot of time thinking about this and have discussed this at length with one of my 1l professors who taught for a while at Stanford and Georgetown so he had some good things to add as well.

I think there are three main aspects to this question. The other students, the classes, and the extracurricular opportunities.

First, the students. At the risk of sounding like an elitist, the average student is simply more talented at the t14 school. This is a big advantage because, assuming you want to get an "A", you will have to try much harder and thereby learn the material better. Further, you learn a lot from simply interacting with students in class as well as outside of class. I don't think there was any difference in gunnerish behavior or general douchebaggery at either school. That being said, there are plenty of students at my transfer school who, in my opinion, wouldn't have been able to compete academically with some of the students at the school I transferred from.

Second, the classes. This is by far the biggest difference in the education. I don't think it is really because of the professors' credentials or reputation or anything like that. I think the professors were great at both schools. However, the professors at my old school seemed to take everything much slower and teach at a much more basic level than my new school. They seemed to coddle us if that makes sense? Also, the exams were a lot less about pure analysis and policy than it was about identifying issues and applying the relevant law. Most exams were closed book whereas at the t14 most of my classes were open book. This obviously shows that memorization plays a lot bigger factor at the t4 school. In fact, I think that if you went in knowing the black letter law cold, then you already were in the top 20 percent of the class. However, I absolutely think that at the very least 20 percent of my old school would have been just fine at the t14 type classes. They could handle a faster pace, a more in depth analysis, and not so much wasting everybody's time going over the black letter law again and again. However, the professors taught at a level they perceived necessary and it was disappointing.

Third, the extracurricular activities. These don't even compare. The t14 I transferred to had infinitely more opportunities regarding speakers, clinics, journals, and so forth. However, I don't really know how much this has to do with the education difference but at the very least the difference in the clinics was important.

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quiver
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Re: 4.0 transfer/ Lower T14/ current COA clerk taking questions

Postby quiver » Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:45 pm

jbell wrote:
cahwc12 wrote:Okay I've got one for you:

Honest opinion on the difference between T4 law school education and T14 law school education: major, minor, somewhere in between?


I'm glad you asked that one because I have spent a lot of time thinking about this and have discussed this at length with one of my 1l professors who taught for a while at Stanford and Georgetown so he had some good things to add as well.

I think there are three main aspects to this question. The other students, the classes, and the extracurricular opportunities.

First, the students. At the risk of sounding like an elitist, the average student is simply more talented at the t14 school. This is a big advantage because, assuming you want to get an "A", you will have to try much harder and thereby learn the material better. Further, you learn a lot from simply interacting with students in class as well as outside of class. I don't think there was any difference in gunnerish behavior or general douchebaggery at either school. That being said, there are plenty of students at my transfer school who, in my opinion, wouldn't have been able to compete academically with some of the students at the school I transferred from.

Second, the classes. This is by far the biggest difference in the education. I don't think it is really because of the professors' credentials or reputation or anything like that. I think the professors were great at both schools. However, the professors at my old school seemed to take everything much slower and teach at a much more basic level than my new school. They seemed to coddle us if that makes sense? Also, the exams were a lot less about pure analysis and policy than it was about identifying issues and applying the relevant law. Most exams were closed book whereas at the t14 most of my classes were open book. This obviously shows that memorization plays a lot bigger factor at the t4 school. In fact, I think that if you went in knowing the black letter law cold, then you already were in the top 20 percent of the class. However, I absolutely think that at the very least 20 percent of my old school would have been just fine at the t14 type classes. They could handle a faster pace, a more in depth analysis, and not so much wasting everybody's time going over the black letter law again and again. However, the professors taught at a level they perceived necessary and it was disappointing.

Third, the extracurricular activities. These don't even compare. The t14 I transferred to had infinitely more opportunities regarding speakers, clinics, journals, and so forth. However, I don't really know how much this has to do with the education difference but at the very least the difference in the clinics was important.
As a T2 to CCN transfer I agree with all of this. However, with respect to the classes, I've talked to my 1L professors and it seems like the characteristics you pointed out may be more of a 1L-2L distinction than a previous school-transfer school distinction. At least my 1L professors told me that they do less "coddling" when they teach upper-level courses. Just thought I'd throw that out there.




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