Health of Legal Markets

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JDeezy
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Health of Legal Markets

Postby JDeezy » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:07 pm

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Last edited by JDeezy on Mon May 13, 2013 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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iMisto
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Re: Health of Legal Markets

Postby iMisto » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:13 pm

Also curious about this.

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tedalbany
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Re: Health of Legal Markets

Postby tedalbany » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:20 pm

Things just generally seem shitty. At least at Fordham things seem to be down compared to last year. There have been anecdotes around here with T14 top 25%-median striking out in NYC. But those are just anecdotes, it'll be hard to get a clear picture until the actual data is released. But I'd say BEST case scenario is that things are actually the same as last year, the more likely case is that firms overhired last year and hiring has gone slightly down.

As far as markets...

Chi sucks, Boston sucks, DC is impossible, SF is probably impossible, LA sucks, Texas is good but you probably need really good ties, NYC is mediocre, FL is god awful. Safest bet is if you have great ties to an insular secondary market.

HTH.

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beachbum
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Re: Health of Legal Markets

Postby beachbum » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:21 pm

tedalbany wrote:Things just generally seem shitty. At least at Fordham things seem to be down compared to last year. There have been anecdotes around here with T14 top 25%-median striking out in NYC. But those are just anecdotes, it'll be hard to get a clear picture until the actual data is released. But I'd say BEST case scenario is that things are actually the same as last year, the more likely case is that firms overhired last year and hiring has gone slightly down.

As far as markets...

Chi sucks, Boston sucks, DC is impossible, SF is probably impossible, LA sucks, Texas is good but you probably need really good ties, NYC is mediocre, FL is god awful. Safest bet is if you have great ties to an insular secondary market.

HTH.


Agree with all of this.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Health of Legal Markets

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:25 pm

NYC is the easiest market to crack for any of the top 14 IF you do not fall below the respective firm's GPA cutoff for your school. Frankly that's a big if but if you do make that cutoff then they have larger class sizes and they don't care about ties (mostly). However, if you do not make the cutoff they simply won't hire you barring some incredible soft factors (like being best friends with the managing partner's son, your aunt is a federal judge, you were a high level exec for one of their clients).

The rest of the markets are such that, because of smaller class sizes and having fewer firms, even if you do fall into the GPA range they often want something more. You can easily lose a spot because of lack of connections, poor interviewing skills, lack of full time prior work experience etc. If you are below their GPA cutoffs....LOL.

I would probably rate Atlanta, Florida, Austin, and San Francisco (maybe) as the hardest markets. The thing I'll say about SF, is that as hard as it seems to be to crack for people in general, they seem to care a lot/ be very friendly to people who are from there. I really like that about that market and Texas. Apparently they often rather take a home town kid with average or below grades than just jump at whoever has the highest grades and ignore ties. Atlanta is the opposite. They don't give a damn if you were born and bred in the ATL, went to Ga Tech undergrad, and say you want to practice in GA for life; if you don't have high grades they'll flush your app down the toilet. But they jump at people who are top 5 percent and who have never stepped foot south of Times Square.

JDeezy
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Re: Health of Legal Markets

Postby JDeezy » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:52 pm

Thank you both.

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iMisto
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Re: Health of Legal Markets

Postby iMisto » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:02 pm

JDeezy wrote:Thank you both.


Omg, JDeezy got the memo. :cry:

Yes, thank you.

Say you go to an EastCoast T14, would having family out west, in general, help snag a SF job? Even if they don't live IN SF? Not that this is my plan.. just wondering.

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AlanShore
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Re: Health of Legal Markets

Postby AlanShore » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:18 pm

A few BC 3Ls and 2Ls felt it was overall better.. at least feeling better than previous years...

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sunynp
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Re: Health of Legal Markets

Postby sunynp » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:27 pm

NALP says that 2856 people got jobs with big law firms over 500 lawyers in 2011. I haven't seen the data for 2012 yet and I think it hasn't been released. I've been suggesting that people take a look at the markets they are considering. Go to NALP and Career Services of the schools you are considering and get a solid number of how many( or how few) jobs there have been in the past couple of years. If career services won't help applicants, maybe posting on TLS can help crowd source the info you need.

I don't think it is enough to just figure out if your ties might be sufficient. I know you can't predict grades with certainty but you should be able to find some actual numbers of job openings in the markets you want.

I was shocked that the number was under 3,000 myself. I thought it was closer to 5000 at least nationwide.

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iMisto
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Re: Health of Legal Markets

Postby iMisto » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:30 pm

sunynp wrote:NALP says that 2856 people got jobs with big law firms over 500 lawyers in 2011. I haven't seen the data for 2012 yet and I think it hasn't been released. I've been suggesting that people take a look at the markets they are considering. Go to NALP and Career Services of the schools they are considering and get a solid number of how many( or how few) jobs there have been in the past couple of years. If career services won't help applicants, maybe posting on TLS can help crowd source the info you need.

I don't think it is enough to just figure out if your ties might be sufficient. I know you can't predict grades with certainty but you should be able to find some actual numbers of job openings in the markets you want.

I was shocked that the number was under 3,000 myself. I thought it was closer to 5000 at least nationwide.


Yeah.. that's a bit scary. Is that a product of people holding onto biglaw jobs longer?? (as well as the economy)

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sunynp
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Re: Health of Legal Markets

Postby sunynp » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:33 pm

No. That is the number of new hires as I understand it. I have to find the link again. I know I posted it here before.

Here is the PDF of 2011 employment:
http://www.nalp.org/uploads/NatlSummCha ... of2011.pdf


this is the page where NALP has all the 2011 info. It was posted by LST here before.
http://www.nalp.org/classof2011
Last edited by sunynp on Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

andythefir
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Re: Health of Legal Markets

Postby andythefir » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:35 pm

At ND my perception is that the national market is either the same or maybe a little worse, but students have much more reasonable expectations so outcomes are dramatically better for the school. Thus, people are focusing on their small home markets instead of the huge markets and actually doing pretty well. Or shooting for a small time prosecutor's office instead of a federal program and coming out with a job instead of swinging for the fence and striking out.
The only market I know about well is New Mexico, and the firms there are generally doing well. 1 of the biggest firms in the state posted a record profit last year. As for hiring, lots of firms are shrinking class sizes to increase offer rates so it seems like things are rougher but at least you're less likely to be looking at a no-offer.

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flem
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Re: Health of Legal Markets

Postby flem » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:59 pm

Atlanta continues to be a grade and prestige driven slaughterhouse

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bk1
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Re: Health of Legal Markets

Postby bk1 » Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:06 pm

Even at NU, NYC is going to be easier than Chi. Yes, NYC is going to be far easier than DC even for Duke/UVA/GULC. What it comes down to though is that it's all relative. If we're talking about median at a lower T14 I'd recommend that a person go all in on NYC. Top 10%+LR? That person can probably split bids between SF/Chi/ATL and do fine, though I think DC can still be rough for someone in that position.

If you're talking about the actual health of the market, arguably SV has been the healthiest in the recession (tech/startup corporate work has done well until the second half of this year and IP is of course booming). But that doesn't make SV easier to get than NYC. It's purely a function of the number of jobs. SV class sizes are tiny in comparison. It's not that their callback medians are that rough either. The 4 native SV firms (Cooley/Fenwick/WSGR/Gunderson) have callback medians at lower T14s of around median. The problem is that these firms don't hire a ton of SAs compared to NYC V10s. And if you miss these 4 you're then looking at SV offices of national firms that only take 5-10 SAs per year (if that). I will also note that SV tends to be less ties focused and care more about people demonstrating a genuine interest in tech/startup work.

My opinion is that if you're going at sticker to a T14 you have to be okay with ending up in NYC since there is a substantial chance that your grades will dictate that that is where your best shot at biglaw lies.

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bk1
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Re: Health of Legal Markets

Postby bk1 » Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:10 pm

iMisto wrote:Say you go to an EastCoast T14, would having family out west, in general, help snag a SF job? Even if they don't live IN SF? Not that this is my plan.. just wondering.


It depends. If by out west you mean Bay Area then maybe, depending on how convincingly you can spin your connection to said family members. If by out west you mean PNW/LA then that probably isn't as helpful, though you might be able to spin general CA ties (e.g. to SoCal) to help with SF. But as I mentioned the real kicker here is how well your ties are to these family members (e.g. parents you visit 5 times a year for holidays are going to sound much more convincing than second cousins that you have never met).

As I noted above though, SV will be easier to crack than SF for someone without ties if you can demonstrate a legitimate interest in SV work.




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