Notre Dame 3L taking questions

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andythefir
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby andythefir » Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:06 pm

gatorgirl2012 wrote:if I get in at ND it'll probably be my highest ranking school, and most attractive as well, due to its int'l programs (law and human development especially). However, I don't anticipate getting a sweet scholarship if I am accepted. It's premature, but your insistence sparked some curiosity. Please elaborate :)


I would be willing to bet that ND outperforms its peer schools for any kind of international placement, which means they place 1-2 every couple years where their peers place 0. There are lots of cool classes to take here on international law/human development, which is great if that interests you, but planning on getting a job in that field out of the box from somewhere other than Yale is insane.

I am a huge ND homer, but knowing what I know now I would not come here at sticker (I'm on a scholarship and things were still looking dicey for a little while). Things are definitely getting better (especially since the CDO had a shakeup) but looking at that kind of debt v the kind of jobs ND students get looks very shaky. ND places lots of students in 80-100k jobs, which are better than most will get out of Michigan State, but can't justify $200k in loans in my opinion. That being said, ND does have an LRAP program and ND dramatically outperforms its peers in clerkship placement.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:50 pm

Yeah, I really can't overstate how much better CDO is now than they were when I was a 1L.

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deadpanic
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby deadpanic » Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:55 am

andythefir wrote:I lived in Oxford Mississippi which has 2-3 gas stations and I expected something similar but South Bend is actually huge.


When the hell did you live in Oxford? There are probably 20 gas stations in Oxford.

Hell, I'm sure South Bend has more to do than Oxford considering it is about 5 times the size of Oxford, but just sayin'.
Last edited by deadpanic on Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby ManoftheHour » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:54 am

How many Californian firms recruit there? Do you know of anyone in your year that successfully landed a job in California?

andythefir
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby andythefir » Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:39 am

ManoftheHour wrote:How many Californian firms recruit there? Do you know of anyone in your year that successfully landed a job in California?


My class is weirdly full of people from CA and Miami who are going back. A close friend of mine got CA biglaw without law review, but don't know anyone else who was trying.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:49 am

Not too many at OCI, but if you have ties and grades you can get back there. A couple of people on LR successfully landed jobs back in CA, but I don't know about the rest of the class.

LuckyIrish2
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby LuckyIrish2 » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:49 pm

1L class also has a ton of kids from CA. So far it seems like most who are going back are doing PI/govt jobs this summer other than one girl who worked at a firm before coming to LS. If you are from CA and do a good job networking over breaks you should do fine, but don't expect employers from CA to seek you out or have a big presence on campus or recruiting.

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Grazzhoppa
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby Grazzhoppa » Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:42 pm

Do you guys know anyone that went to study abroad in chile for a semester? I did this in undergrad and would live to do it again.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:34 pm

Grazzhoppa wrote:Do you guys know anyone that went to study abroad in chile for a semester? I did this in undergrad and would live to do it again.


I would not recommend doing this in law school.

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Grazzhoppa
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby Grazzhoppa » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:16 am

ndirish2010 wrote:
Grazzhoppa wrote:Do you guys know anyone that went to study abroad in chile for a semester? I did this in undergrad and would live to do it again.


I would not recommend doing this in law school.


Could you elaborate, what would be the disadvantage to doing this second semester 2L? Thanks for your input.

majnana
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby majnana » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:10 am

Grazzhoppa wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:
Grazzhoppa wrote:Do you guys know anyone that went to study abroad in chile for a semester? I did this in undergrad and would live to do it again.


I would not recommend doing this in law school.


Could you elaborate, what would be the disadvantage to doing this second semester 2L? Thanks for your input.


I'm going to go out on a limb and say that part of the reason is because 2L is a very important year for networking. With the legal market such that only 50% of graduates are getting jobs, you really cannot afford to do anything your 2L year that doesn't forward either your academic prospects or your future career in the law. Basically, law school is about impressing future prospective employers and getting a job.

Notre Dame has a London Law program, but the foundation of our own legal system is based in English common law. Also, London is a financial hub and there is plenty of business between the US and Great Britain that requires attorneys knowledgable of both systems.

What can a semester in Chile offer you that will impress future employers? Pretty much nothing. It provides no benefits, because Chile is not a hub of progressive legal thinking, business, finance, or anything else. Spending a semester in China or London might advance your career prospects. Spending a semester "goofing off" in South America isn't going to help your job prospects, and might actually hurt them. At the very least, you cannot afford to do anything 2L year without asking yourself "how will this help me get a job"?

Just my two cents. As a disclaimer, I am just a 0L right now.

rooneydbc
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby rooneydbc » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:35 am

Building on that last post about the study abroad program: do any of the current ND students know anyone who did the London program (which is extremely appealing to me as a big fan of London)? If so, did it hinder those students abilities to get SA jobs during the summer after 2L? Spending a year in London sounds like a good idea as a "you're a student, live abroad for year," idea, but I would obviously avoid it at all costs if it's going to cost me a SA position.

Thanks a lot, in advance.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:04 am

rooneydbc wrote:Building on that last post about the study abroad program: do any of the current ND students know anyone who did the London program (which is extremely appealing to me as a big fan of London)? If so, did it hinder those students abilities to get SA jobs during the summer after 2L? Spending a year in London sounds like a good idea as a "you're a student, live abroad for year," idea, but I would obviously avoid it at all costs if it's going to cost me a SA position.

Thanks a lot, in advance.


Going to London second semester 2L year is not an awful idea (though you may find it difficult if you are on a journal). I would not go for the entire year because you are foregoing most of OCI.


Also, I think the above post is correct. You won't know until long before you have to have a semester in Chile planned whether you have a job for 2L summer yet. If your grades are not good, you may be still hustling at that point.

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Grazzhoppa
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby Grazzhoppa » Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:47 am

Thanks.

andythefir
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby andythefir » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:21 am

rooneydbc wrote:do any of the current ND students know anyone who did the London program (which is extremely appealing to me as a big fan of London)? If so, did it hinder those students abilities to get SA jobs during the summer after 2L? Spending a year in London sounds like a good idea as a "you're a student, live abroad for year," idea, but I would obviously avoid it at all costs if it's going to cost me a SA position.


A friend of mine is doing a year in London now and got a biglaw job through OCI in CA, although I don't think that's typical. Their semester starts later than everyone else's so they are on campus for early interview week, when the large firms come. A large part of it is that several people who are clueless about getting jobs go to London-unclear if it's correlation or causation.

I personally chose not to do it because it's obscenely expensive, although there's no question it would have been cool.
Last edited by andythefir on Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:02 am

andythefir wrote:
rooneydbc wrote:do any of the current ND students know anyone who did the London program (which is extremely appealing to me as a big fan of London)? If so, did it hinder those students abilities to get SA jobs during the summer after 2L? Spending a year in London sounds like a good idea as a "you're a student, live abroad for year," idea, but I would obviously avoid it at all costs if it's going to cost me a SA position.


A friend of mine is doing a year in London now and got a biglaw job through OCI in CA, although I don't think that's typical. Their semester starts later than everyone else's so they are on campus for early interview week, when the large firms come. A large part of it is that a lot of several people who are clueless about getting jobs go to London-unclear if it's correlation or causation.

I personally chose not to do it because it's obscenely expensive, although there's no question it would have been cool.


It is always surprising to me how many of these people there are.

rooneydbc
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby rooneydbc » Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:01 pm

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It would probably be pretty irresponsible to go to London without an SA position secured, especially in the current climate.

Thanks for your responses.

elc414
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby elc414 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:54 pm

I'm pretty excited about my ND admission and scholarship offer, and I know ND has somewhat of a national reach. However, I want to work in Philly, which I undertand is pretty insular. Is that a pretty tough sell from ND? Also, ND is the only school I applied to not in a city. I've been out of undergrad for five years. Would I seem like a grandma in a college town? Thanks!

majnana
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby majnana » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:29 pm

elc414 wrote:I'm pretty excited about my ND admission and scholarship offer, and I know ND has somewhat of a national reach. However, I want to work in Philly, which I undertand is pretty insular. Is that a pretty tough sell from ND? Also, ND is the only school I applied to not in a city. I've been out of undergrad for five years. Would I seem like a grandma in a college town? Thanks!


I have questions regarding this type of thing, too. I keep hearing, anecdotally, that ND has a national reach but mostly in the sense that a graduate can take a ND degree back to their own city/town. So, part of the reason ND places nationally seems to be because the students all go home after graduation, except for the few who land big jobs in Chicago. Is this right? So in other words, if you want to practice somewhere other than where you're from (for instance, if you want to work in Philly but are not actually FROM Philly) you are better off going to school where you want to work than trying to take a ND degree somewhere you don't have ties.

ND has been at the top of my interest list for a long time, but since I don't want to "go home" with the degree I'm a little concerned about the lack of a feeder market. I'm not sure where I would be able to get a job, considering ND doesn't have a home market. And the Midwest in general sounds pretty insular, i.e. if you aren't from there you'll have a hard time getting hired (even with a good degree like ND.)

andythefir
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby andythefir » Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:37 pm

majnana wrote:
elc414 wrote:I'm pretty excited about my ND admission and scholarship offer, and I know ND has somewhat of a national reach. However, I want to work in Philly, which I undertand is pretty insular. Is that a pretty tough sell from ND? Also, ND is the only school I applied to not in a city. I've been out of undergrad for five years. Would I seem like a grandma in a college town? Thanks!


I have questions regarding this type of thing, too. I keep hearing, anecdotally, that ND has a national reach but mostly in the sense that a graduate can take a ND degree back to their own city/town. So, part of the reason ND places nationally seems to be because the students all go home after graduation, except for the few who land big jobs in Chicago. Is this right? So in other words, if you want to practice somewhere other than where you're from (for instance, if you want to work in Philly but are not actually FROM Philly) you are better off going to school where you want to work than trying to take a ND degree somewhere you don't have ties.

ND has been at the top of my interest list for a long time, but since I don't want to "go home" with the degree I'm a little concerned about the lack of a feeder market. I'm not sure where I would be able to get a job, considering ND doesn't have a home market. And the Midwest in general sounds pretty insular, i.e. if you aren't from there you'll have a hard time getting hired (even with a good degree like ND.)


I personally know several people from different parts of PA who were able to get jobs there, and I interviewed with a Philly firm in OCI. Definitely can happen and does happen.

As for the question majna asks, most folks not in law school have no idea how nepotistic and xenophobic legal hiring is. No matter where you went to school firms will always be insecure you'll split if you get an offer from back home (and even those of us who want to go home will lie and tell the same story as the people who really want to stay-the only thing worse than living somewhere you hate is the unemployment line). If you're from Miami and trying to get to Grand Rapids it's going to be a rough sell no matter where you go (although someone at ND pulled it off last year). Basically the question comes down to how much more persuasive your life story is when incorporating a stay at the school. "I am from Texas but hate Texas so I moved to Boston to attend Boston College because I can't imagine living anywhere but Boston for the rest of my days" is more believable than the same story replacing ND for BC. Being from elsewhere and going to ND because you love the midwest is a much better story than going to ND trying to get so, say, LA (although you could try to spin it that ND has a national reach which is why you came).

The caveat that applies to ND, however, is that everyone has heard of ND. Where I'm from people think the University of Chicago and Boston College are roughly as prestigious as the University of Dallas. Even though lawyers probably know better (although there's no guarantee) an ND grad's bio on the firm's website will be way more impressive to clients than a BU law grad's bio in most parts of the US.

andythefir
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby andythefir » Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:34 am

Sorry to dredge up a threat if there is no longer any interest, but this semester ND has started pushing more aggressively a program that sends students to Chicago for a semester. They work full time in the city for a variety of offices (public defenders and prosecutors mostly, but I've also heard that there are some regulatory positions), which may help trying to break into Chicago.

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law chihuahua
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby law chihuahua » Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:49 am

Thanks so much for the news, andythefir. Does everyone that wants to participate pretty much get a chance or are there grade cutoffs/stiff competition?
Feel free to let me know if I'm missing a website or a thread somewhere.
I really like Notre Dame and I'm researching as much as I can ever since I got in, but I'm a bit limited in what I can do since I'm overseas and cannot visit.
Really appreciate the tips and info! :D

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ndirish2010
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:19 am

Bump.

andythefir
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby andythefir » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:38 pm

law chihuahua wrote:Thanks so much for the news, andythefir. Does everyone that wants to participate pretty much get a chance or are there grade cutoffs/stiff competition?
Feel free to let me know if I'm missing a website or a thread somewhere.
I really like Notre Dame and I'm researching as much as I can ever since I got in, but I'm a bit limited in what I can do since I'm overseas and cannot visit.
Really appreciate the tips and info! :D


I don't think grades are at all relevant, only a desire to go. The link talking about it is here http://law.nd.edu/academics/clinics-and ... o-program/

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princeR
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Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby princeR » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:13 pm

Any information on dual degrees? I know that NDLS has the pretty basic setup of a JD/MBA, JD/MA (English) and JD/MEE but what about some of the other grad programs, such as Peace Studies?

Thanks for the information and congrats on the clerkship OP.




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