Notre Dame 3L taking questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
User avatar
Unoriginalist
Posts: 275
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:41 pm

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby Unoriginalist » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:13 pm

What's the atmosphere amongst the students like? Is it a hyper-competitive settings, or mostly congenial?

What do the students who do not end up with 2L SA's do, would you say?

Is the school's CSO helpful, would you say? Does a ND degree offer mobility?

What would you say is your favorite/least favorite thing about going to NDLS?

Thanks so much!

andythefir
Posts: 397
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:56 am

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby andythefir » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:36 pm

Unoriginalist wrote:What's the atmosphere amongst the students like? Is it a hyper-competitive settings, or mostly congenial?

What do the students who do not end up with 2L SA's do, would you say?

Is the school's CSO helpful, would you say? Does a ND degree offer mobility?

What would you say is your favorite/least favorite thing about going to NDLS?

Thanks so much!

In order:
It's hard to get a feel for how competitive it is compared to other schools because every school tries to make itself seem like the only one not full of psychos. There are a handful of folks who will try to get in the class' head by spreading rumors and doing things intentionally to intimidate but the vast majority are super nice and welcoming. There's definitely no stealing notes or trying to mess with classmates' computers or anything.

Not sure how to answer what students do who don't get firm jobs for 2L summer, one way that ND is different is that fellowships like Blackstone and other conservative-leaning employers seem to like ND students. ND will also pay you to work in public service either summer or both summers which definitely makes a public defender/prosecutor job more palatable. They also have a couple programs where they will pay your loans if you work in public service and give you a modest stipend if you're an unemployed graduate working in public service which means you have a pretty sizable financial edge on your competition from other schools.

CDO is kinda helpful although they're not going to shake you into asking them for help. If you come to them with specific questions like how to make a legal resume or what to say in a networking request they can be a big help. If you expect them to find you a job you're in trouble, although I'm sure that's the same everywhere.

ND is by far the most portable of its peer schools in that it won't stand in your way wherever you want to go. It won't open doors by itself though, so if you have a market in mind try to cultivate ties. If you do have ties to a place, especially a small town without a lot of nearby law schools, ND can take you as far as you want to go.

My favorite thing about ND is the community-when you reach out to an alum they go all out to help you in any way they possibly can. And the alums are everywhere, which opens up lots of possibilities. My least favorite thing is that the school is filthy, filthy wealthy as in building gigantic beautiful buildings and paying for them in cash. The buildings are beautiful and the campus is incredible but then you cut your tuition check you realize they could just stop charging tuition and stay afloat for a whole generation.

jms1987
Posts: 226
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby jms1987 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:27 pm

How many big Ohio firms recruit there, Cincinnati in particular?

User avatar
Unoriginalist
Posts: 275
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:41 pm

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby Unoriginalist » Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:54 pm

Thank you for answering my questions! That was very helpful.

I noticed on LST that ND has something like 22% of its grads employed by the school. That number can't be accurate, can it? Any idea what the word is on this?

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... show=chars

Thanks again!

User avatar
red8aron
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 6:35 pm

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby red8aron » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:04 pm

I am very interested in trying to get an Article 3 Clerkship. I know that ND does better than a fair number of t14's in this regard, but I am interested in the particular support the school offers in this area.
Do many of the faculty have connections to A3 judges?
Does ND off specific support in making the best A3 application?
I believe the OP got an A3 position. Having succeed in this process is there anything particularly about ND that helped?

Next, reading these posts it has been implied that ND does better with conservative organizations. I am pretty liberal and an athiest, but don't have a problem interacting with conservative(or religious) people or organization. Would I be disadvantaged by my ideology in terms of applying to judges or organizations which otherwise support ND?
Finally, and I'm sorry for the pile of questions, but do you believe ND with a bit of money is justifiable over lower t14 schools and what would you say the cut off is for preferring ND. I say this considering that I am from Indiana and have always though of ND as a great school.

majnana
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:40 pm

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby majnana » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:32 pm

Hi there! This is my first TLS post, although I've been reading here for a few months.

I have already got my acceptance to NDLS and am pretty convinced it is where I'm going next August. It's one of my dream schools and I've been offered a nice scholly so I'm very excited. I'll be attending with a family in tow, including young kids, and it would be great if any current ND law students could tell me when first year classes usually end for the day. Since my SO will be working we'll have to figure out who is going to be home for the kids after school. Anyone have experience at Village Apartments, the married graduate housing? Anyone have info or comments (or opinions) on the school system that kids attend if their family lives on campus at Village Apartments?

Also, has anyone used the on-campus daycare? The guide says it fills up quickly (as in by February) and it sounds great to have my toddler right there on campus for easy pick-ups and drop-offs, but I would love to hear opinions on the quality of the daycare.

If any students with children can give me helpful information or tips I would be very thankful! I have read some really great things in the student guide in relation to attending at NDLS while simultaneously being a parent, but there is still so much I need to find out. It's early in the cycle, and I haven't heard back from most schools I applied to, but I feel like there is a large probability that I am going to NDLS next year.

majnana
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:40 pm

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby majnana » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:40 am

Another question: Is it still true that textbooks (and other bookstore purchases) can be charged against your student account balance? That would sure be helpful at the beginning of the semester.

Also, does anyone know if it is possible to get a SA in South Bend or is that area just too small? We have young kids and my husband will have to find work in South Bend, so I don't see how I could go elsewhere for a summer job... Unless it was so worthwhile that I spent weekdays in Chicago or Indianapolis and came home to South Bend only on the weekends, which would be hard. Any thoughts on summer jobs in South Bend or areas within driving distance? Is there much of a legal market nearby or is the nearest area Chicago?

User avatar
Paraflam
Posts: 472
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:09 pm

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby Paraflam » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:34 am

Alright, this might be a ridiculous question, but does anyone bring their parents with them for the Weekday Visit days for waitlisted students? My parents have been excited about checking out campuses with me like they did in UG, but I wasn't sure if people still do this in LS? Don't want to look like "that guy" :|

majnana
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:40 pm

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby majnana » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:13 pm

Paraflam wrote:Alright, this might be a ridiculous question, but does anyone bring their parents with them for the Weekday Visit days for waitlisted students? My parents have been excited about checking out campuses with me like they did in UG, but I wasn't sure if people still do this in LS? Don't want to look like "that guy" :|


I'm sure you're waiting for a current LS to give you some feedback on that, but I wanted to say... If you are lucky enough to have parents who are that supportive, and it's just a visit day (not as if it is the first day of classes, after all) then I would go ahead and let them tag along. After all, they are obviously excited for you and proud of you for entering this stage of your life. You can always split up for a while (they can wander the campus(es) and you can take off on your own to meet fellow prospectives and things like that) so having them come along doesn't mean you have to be "that guy". :) Even *if* it isn't the norm for parents to show up on visit days, that is probably a result of the added expense and time off from work that it entails for parents. I would be quite surprised if visit days at law schools did not have at least some parentals coming along with students, so you would almost certainly not be the only one with an entourage.

By the way, double emphasis on everything I said if your parents will be paying any tuition or otherwise supporting you financially during your LS career! :wink:

andythefir
Posts: 397
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:56 am

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby andythefir » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:32 pm

In the middle of the finals crunch but I will address the % employed by the school point.
It doesn't surprise me that the bloodbath that was the class of 2010 and the mildly better but still awful class of 2011 had trouble finding jobs. The recession caused a paradigm shift that caught some people at ND flat footed. As I said before we have people from all 50 states at the school so why would an all-Texas firm spend the time and money to get all the way to South Bend to talk to the handful in our class that want to go to Texas? It's way cheaper to let the students come to you, so why spend the time and money? This all changed over a couple years (and isn't completely over-lots of people still expect OCI to be the entirety of their job search) and ND, sending students all over the country, had a rough go before people figured it out. As someone trying to get to New Mexico I did all of my interviewing back home before I left for the semester and ended up just fine.
I'm sure some people struck out and wound up employed by the school but ND has a huge number of people interested in public service which often has a rough transition from school to the real world. That and some people were probably taking the job search easy knowing that the school would pay their loans and a small stipend for working in public service. The people employed by the school are usually working in a prosecutor or public defender's office and either outlasting the other unemployed and staying there once a job opens or networking like crazy to get out.

User avatar
ndirish2010
Posts: 2950
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:34 pm

majnana wrote:Another question: Is it still true that textbooks (and other bookstore purchases) can be charged against your student account balance? That would sure be helpful at the beginning of the semester.

Also, does anyone know if it is possible to get a SA in South Bend or is that area just too small? We have young kids and my husband will have to find work in South Bend, so I don't see how I could go elsewhere for a summer job... Unless it was so worthwhile that I spent weekdays in Chicago or Indianapolis and came home to South Bend only on the weekends, which would be hard. Any thoughts on summer jobs in South Bend or areas within driving distance? Is there much of a legal market nearby or is the nearest area Chicago?


There are basically 2-3 SAs available in South Bend, and they are nearly impossible to get without substantial area ties. However, if you can sell the fact that you will be building sort of a life in South Bend while you are here, this would not be out of the question. Faegre Baker Daniels is the biggest firm with an office downtown, they usually hire 1-2 SAs. Barnes & Thornburg is the other big one, they hire 1. Next closest legal markets are Grand Rapids (1.5 hours), and Chicago/Indy.

treseme
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:44 pm

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby treseme » Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:08 pm

jms1987 wrote:How many big Ohio firms recruit there, Cincinnati in particular?


Pretty much all of the larger Ohio firms showed up at OCI this fall. Jones Day and Baker Hostetler both had folks from multiple offices (Cleveland, Columbus) come. KMK and Vorys are larger ones off the top of my head who did resume collect (I heard back from Vorys's Cincinnati office after figuring a resume drop was a giant black hole).

From Cincinnati, Frost Brown Todd, Dinsmore and Taft showed up at OCI too. There are plenty of ND folks at these firms in Ohio. If you have ties to the state, and decent grades, you'll have a good shot.

majnana
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:40 pm

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby majnana » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:55 pm

ndirish2010: Thanks for answering that. My husband and I have recently been discussing the possibility of moving for the entire summer after my second year if I am fortunate enough to land a SA in a nearby market like Chicago, Indy, or even over in Ohio. Depending on his job, he may be able to take time off or switch jobs when we get back in the fall. It is helpful, however, to know that a legal market does exist in South Bend and a couple SA positions typically exist. We are not set on living anywhere in particular after graduation, other than knowing we do not want to move back to El Paso (where we are currently living, and it is dusty and hot all year long). I doubt I would be opposed to even settling down in South Bend after graduation if I could find a reasonable job, especially since all of our young children will have been in the school system (and making friends, and building a life, etc) for three years.

So, anyway... Thanks for the info! I wish you the best of luck in finals and Happy Holidays. :)

User avatar
ndirish2010
Posts: 2950
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:59 pm

Post finals bump.

LuckyIrish2
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:39 am

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby LuckyIrish2 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:52 am

Paraflam wrote:Alright, this might be a ridiculous question, but does anyone bring their parents with them for the Weekday Visit days for waitlisted students? My parents have been excited about checking out campuses with me like they did in UG, but I wasn't sure if people still do this in LS? Don't want to look like "that guy" :|


The answer to this depends on how you think your parents will behave. I personally attended my visits alone (I'm 24) but had several friends who brought there parents with them. The only time it seemed awkward was one particular mother who basically hijacked the tour and a question answer session specifically for students only. I would say bringing your parents shouldn't make you look like "that guy" at all but maybe politely ask them before hand to let you do the talking/question asking.

LuckyIrish2
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:39 am

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby LuckyIrish2 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:07 am

Unoriginalist wrote:What's the atmosphere amongst the students like? Is it a hyper-competitive settings, or mostly congenial?

What do the students who do not end up with 2L SA's do, would you say?

Is the school's CSO helpful, would you say? Does a ND degree offer mobility?

What would you say is your favorite/least favorite thing about going to NDLS?

Thanks so much!


Current 1L here just wanted to comment that each class has it's own personality. In general NDLS does a great job of fostering a familial environment and professors and staff will encourage everyone to be friendly and collaborative. I have had classmates call me when I was sick to offer me their notes (even ones who aren't my closest friends). I haven't heard of any mind games or deceptive plots nor does anyone seem to be all that competitive outside of just wanting to do well. Other classes may be a little different but I would say my first semester was surprisingly nice.

The career offices are getting better as we recently got a new director who is trying very hard to revamp the CDO in light of the changing job market. As previously mentioned, they aren't going to get you a job but I have had a good experience with my career counselor through meetings and emails.

ND degrees are arguably the most portable non T14 degree. We place well in mid size markets but usually those are situations of people returning to their home states so you get an NDLS grad with ties to the community against usually lower ranking regional schools. If you for sure want a certain area there may be better alternatives especially big cities or east coast, but I have several friends that got DC Chicago and NYC big law offers.

My favorite thing is that all my professors genuinely care about us and want to get to know us. I had a group lunch with my crim prof, coffee withy contracts prof, and drinks with my torts prof, all by their invitation. After one semester I feel like I already have 3 excellent resources for academic and career advice who are also just really interesting cool people. I have friends at Texas and Columbia who are pretty sure none of their profs have any idea who they are which may be fine for some but I personally value the atmosphere at ND.

Worst thing is the snow I'm heading back to. South bend gets a bad reputation and yeah it's no NYC but honestly in law school you don't really have time or need for big city amenities. Once they finish the whole foods I think I'll be pretty content.

andythefir
Posts: 397
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:56 am

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby andythefir » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:42 pm

Worst thing is the snow I'm heading back to. South bend gets a bad reputation and yeah it's no NYC but honestly in law school you don't really have time or need for big city amenities. Once they finish the whole foods I think I'll be pretty content.

Not to say that your experience is wrong but before getting here I heard over and over that South Bend was this tiny town with nothing to do. I lived in Oxford Mississippi which has 2-3 gas stations and I expected something similar but South Bend is actually huge. As in any chain store/restaurant you can imagine, hospitals, malls etc. The university has shows/concerts/musicals/niche movies and there are bars everywhere around campus. And in addition to football students get free hockey tickets, there is basketball, soccer: all sports are huge here.
Also, the last 2 winters have been the warmest they've ever recorded. It snows here, yes, but my time hasn't been like living in the arctic.
My main complaint about South Bend is that it's an old hollowed out midwest town. The city doesn't keep up the roads because it's always out of money, there are huge sections of town you can't go after dark. ND has its own firefighters, police, and even power so the city's problems aren't always your problems but leaving campus can be nasty. The good news is that ND feels like a bubble and around campus is very safe and very nice, but a few blocks out it changes fast.

User avatar
ndirish2010
Posts: 2950
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:55 am

bump

User avatar
gatorgirl2012
Posts: 273
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:57 am

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby gatorgirl2012 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:24 pm

ndirish, I'm curious because I've seen you on other threads say that ND is not worth it at sticker price. i understand law students should minimize debt as much as possible, but is there any other reasoning behind your statements? if I get in at ND it'll probably be my highest ranking school, and most attractive as well, due to its int'l programs (law and human development especially). However, I don't anticipate getting a sweet scholarship if I am accepted. It's premature, but your insistence sparked some curiosity. Please elaborate :)

User avatar
ndirish2010
Posts: 2950
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:40 pm

gatorgirl2012 wrote:ndirish, I'm curious because I've seen you on other threads say that ND is not worth it at sticker price. i understand law students should minimize debt as much as possible, but is there any other reasoning behind your statements? if I get in at ND it'll probably be my highest ranking school, and most attractive as well, due to its int'l programs (law and human development especially). However, I don't anticipate getting a sweet scholarship if I am accepted. It's premature, but your insistence sparked some curiosity. Please elaborate :)


Don't come here for any sort of specialty programs, they are meaningless given that the goal of law school is one thing- to get a job. I love Notre Dame and NDLS, but to take out 175K in debt to attend here is simply reckless when only 25% of the class will have a job outcome that might eventually enable them to pay back that debt. I would say it is fairly reasonable to come here at half price (that's what I'm paying), but even that is a bit risky. You should always assume you will end up median- and if you do end up median from NDLS, you won't have the means to pay off 175K of debt + interest.

matrim
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:21 pm

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby matrim » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:55 am

Do you know where near ND people live that is safe, nice (multiple bedroom) houses for rent, and fairly close to the Law School? I’m not really worried about price. Maybe the area where the Professors live? Thanks.

User avatar
ndirish2010
Posts: 2950
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:59 am

matrim wrote:Do you know where near ND people live that is safe, nice (multiple bedroom) houses for rent, and fairly close to the Law School? I’m not really worried about price. Maybe the area where the Professors live? Thanks.


If you don't care about price, then the Foundry is what you want.

matrim
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:21 pm

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby matrim » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:17 pm

NDirish2010, Im planning on visiting NDLS this spring, a few questions: 1.) Is it important to visit on one of the two accepted student’s days or is any visit during the normal week as good? 2.) Are there any important questions/places/things you recommend or feel are necessary during the trip? 3.) What are the living areas that are super nice, but actual houses with yards, (for someone with dogs and kids the foundry wont work)? Im hoping the trip will answer a lot of my questions. Thanks a lot!

User avatar
ndirish2010
Posts: 2950
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby ndirish2010 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:33 pm

matrim wrote:NDirish2010, Im planning on visiting NDLS this spring, a few questions: 1.) Is it important to visit on one of the two accepted student’s days or is any visit during the normal week as good? 2.) Are there any important questions/places/things you recommend or feel are necessary during the trip? 3.) What are the living areas that are super nice, but actual houses with yards, (for someone with dogs and kids the foundry wont work)? Im hoping the trip will answer a lot of my questions. Thanks a lot!


I don't necessarily think visiting matters all that much. If you've never been here, then you might want to see the campus (who wouldn't?), but I feel like admitted student days are pretty worthless. The decision comes down to employment stats and scholarship $$, not what the building looks like.

If you're looking to buy a house, in South Bend the nicest areas are just to the SW of campus (directly west of Eddy Street Commons about a mile), which is where a lot of profs live- they are old houses but it's a beautiful area and the houses all have yards, and then there's Jefferson street southeast of campus. The people with the most money in the area all live in Granger though.

matrim
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:21 pm

Re: Notre Dame 3L taking questions

Postby matrim » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:55 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:
matrim wrote:NDirish2010, Im planning on visiting NDLS this spring, a few questions: 1.) Is it important to visit on one of the two accepted student’s days or is any visit during the normal week as good? 2.) Are there any important questions/places/things you recommend or feel are necessary during the trip? 3.) What are the living areas that are super nice, but actual houses with yards, (for someone with dogs and kids the foundry wont work)? Im hoping the trip will answer a lot of my questions. Thanks a lot!


I don't necessarily think visiting matters all that much. If you've never been here, then you might want to see the campus (who wouldn't?), but I feel like admitted student days are pretty worthless. The decision comes down to employment stats and scholarship $$, not what the building looks like.

If you're looking to buy a house, in South Bend the nicest areas are just to the SW of campus (directly west of Eddy Street Commons about a mile), which is where a lot of profs live- they are old houses but it's a beautiful area and the houses all have yards, and then there's Jefferson street southeast of campus. The people with the most money in the area all live in Granger though.


Thanks. Appreciate the info!




Return to “Ask a Law Student / Graduate”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests