Top Law Schools

rayiner wrote:

marlborofillet wrote:

dingbat wrote:

Desert Fox wrote: I use Rayiner's outline and checklist

Any chance I can get a copy of this?

+1

My outlines are widely acknowledged as sucking.

rayiner wrote:Ksilaw,

LSAT/GPA doesn't do such a great job of selection that the spreads on exams are that tight. I'm not sure about Harvard, but many of my exams have had enormous spreads. Most people don't get anywhere near all the available points. I took a class that was 75% law review and full of clerkship gunners, and the highest score on our graded midterm was like 150/175. Second highest was like 10 points lower, and median was 20 points below that.

Even though LSAT is the best single indicator we have, statistically it explains less than half of the difference in grades. A group of 172/3.8's is going to have wildly different abilities in terms of figuring out what professors are looking for, how to write good outlines, etc.

I'm quite firmly of the opinion that differences in hiring between tiers of schools are more exaggerated than differences in law exam taking ability. Median at Harvard is going to blow away blow away median at NYLS, but bottom 10% at Harvard genuinely doesn't get his to take law exams and they would not do well against top students at lower ranked schools who do get how to take law exams.

ksllaw wrote:

rayiner wrote:Ksilaw,

LSAT/GPA doesn't do such a great job of selection that the spreads on exams are that tight. I'm not sure about Harvard, but many of my exams have had enormous spreads. Most people don't get anywhere near all the available points. I took a class that was 75% law review and full of clerkship gunners, and the highest score on our graded midterm was like 150/175. Second highest was like 10 points lower, and median was 20 points below that.

Even though LSAT is the best single indicator we have, statistically it explains less than half of the difference in grades. A group of 172/3.8's is going to have wildly different abilities in terms of figuring out what professors are looking for, how to write good outlines, etc.

I'm quite firmly of the opinion that differences in hiring between tiers of schools are more exaggerated than differences in law exam taking ability. Median at Harvard is going to blow away blow away median at NYLS, but bottom 10% at Harvard genuinely doesn't get his to take law exams and they would not do well against top students at lower ranked schools who do get how to take law exams.

Sorry just getting to respond tonight. Been studying for the LSAT and doing other stuff. Will have to keep it short, as I'm slightly sick too. ..sniffles.

So, they do post grades publicly for everyone to see in each law school class (hopefully w/o actual names attached, right?!)? And, if so, are these made available only to those in the class or others as well.

I would agree that if the grades vary by a wide margin (consistently across many classes) then that's a case of vastly different abilities being displayed (the ability to take a law school exam that is). I'm just curious if we have a large data set that shows this?

JamMasterJ wrote:hey ray, can i get your outline and checklist just so that I can format my own?

Desert Fox wrote:

JamMasterJ wrote:hey ray, can i get your outline and checklist just so that I can format my own?

I don't recommend it. His format is weird and counter intuitive.

Desert Fox wrote:
It heavily rewards speed of analysis compared to strength of analysis. To almost an absurd degree. It rewards voluminous shallow analysis.

ksllaw wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:
It heavily rewards speed of analysis compared to strength of analysis. To almost an absurd degree. It rewards voluminous shallow analysis.

So elegant writing and proper grammar......basically....all the elements of a well-written paper from a professional and stylistic/aesthetic standpoint don't matter for these law school exams is that right? It's about speed and racking up points (like a video game, lol) for "hitting" on various issues?

rayiner wrote:

ksllaw wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:
It heavily rewards speed of analysis compared to strength of analysis. To almost an absurd degree. It rewards voluminous shallow analysis.

So elegant writing and proper grammar......basically....all the elements of a well-written paper from a professional and stylistic/aesthetic standpoint don't matter for these law school exams is that right? It's about speed and racking up points (like a video game, lol) for "hitting" on various issues?

It's all about getting points from the professor's rubric. Aesthetics really doesn't matter at all. Style doesn't matter, except to the extent you need to use complete sentences because it's hard to write precise analysis in fragments. Organization only matters so that the professor can easily go back and forth from your exam to the grading rubric to give you points. It's a very low bar.

Here's the best way to understand legal exams. As far as I can tell, professors write exams by starting with a course outline. They add facts to each element and issue in the course outline. These facts are usually such that they can go either way with respect to the corresponding element or issue. Then they cut and paste these facts into a Word document in more or less outline order, and add a small amount of filler narrative to make a hypothetical. The professor then grades you by seeing how well you can work backwards from the facts to the original outline, and how well your analysis shows you understand why particular facts are related to particular parts of the outline. It's fairly mechanical stuff. It's not like the professor is sitting there thinking about your argument in any holistic sense. The professor could probably grade everyone's exams a few sentences at a time and come up with the same result.

scifiguy wrote:My question is this...

In UG, we sometimes come across professors whoh have certain political, worldview, or theoretical biases towards the class material. Some even go so far as to attack you if you disagree with them. And it's sometimes feared that if you disagree with them on a graded assignment or even just in class that they may penalize you for it.

I've heard students say about so and so professor, "Just agree with all the liberal stuff they say in your essays and you'll get an A."

Is this ever something to worry about and that happens in law school? Would you be penalized for holding a particular position that your prof. disagrees with, but that you've supported in a reasonable manner through logic and evidence? I've had a very hardcore Marxist UG prof. who was actually fair in that he made it known what side he was on in regards to the class material, but would still present the "other side" to our class and leave it up to us to decide. Agreeing with him wouldn't necessarilyl get you an A. You had to still do a good job supporting your position. I think he still valued good argument over his own theoreticasl and political biases.

But there's always the worry that some profs won't do that. Or at least if they don't penalize you they may reward you if you just say what they want to hear.

dazzleberry wrote:There's a definite level of arbitrariness to law school issue-spotting essay exams. Less so for multiple choice exams and short-answer exams calling for succinct answers.

It's clear enough that a professor with 70 students grading issue-spotting essay exams on tort law (curved of course), will, if forced to re-grade these exams at a later date, (say, 2 weeks after the first go around) grade many of these exams differently. So much is dependent on outside factors: the order in which the exams are looked at, the professor's mood, and so on.

I was shy of a an A/A- several times, and the response I got when I spoke to my professors was usually: "well, I already gave out all the xyz grades by the time I got to your exam, sorry." In one class a professor sent out a class-wide email apologizing for giving out a bunch of Bs, saying that so many students deserved higher grades, but that he was forced to give them lower grades because of the curve requirement. Now how's that for fairness?
So yes - there is an element of luck to receiving ideal grades on law school exams for many students.

scifiguy wrote:
Wow!

That's interesting the professor would actually apologize. Do you attend a T14?

scifiguy wrote:

dazzleberry wrote:There's a definite level of arbitrariness to law school issue-spotting essay exams. Less so for multiple choice exams and short-answer exams calling for succinct answers.

It's clear enough that a professor with 70 students grading issue-spotting essay exams on tort law (curved of course), will, if forced to re-grade these exams at a later date, (say, 2 weeks after the first go around) grade many of these exams differently. So much is dependent on outside factors: the order in which the exams are looked at, the professor's mood, and so on.

I was shy of a an A/A- several times, and the response I got when I spoke to my professors was usually: "well, I already gave out all the xyz grades by the time I got to your exam, sorry." In one class a professor sent out a class-wide email apologizing for giving out a bunch of Bs, saying that so many students deserved higher grades, but that he was forced to give them lower grades because of the curve requirement. Now how's that for fairness?
So yes - there is an element of luck to receiving ideal grades on law school exams for many students.

Wow!

That's interesting the professor would actually apologize. Do you atttend a T14?

So, sometimes the order in which your paper is graded can determine whether you get an A/A- or B/B+? That's ridiculous!

FeelTheHeat wrote:

scifiguy wrote:

dazzleberry wrote:There's a definite level of arbitrariness to law school issue-spotting essay exams. Less so for multiple choice exams and short-answer exams calling for succinct answers.

It's clear enough that a professor with 70 students grading issue-spotting essay exams on tort law (curved of course), will, if forced to re-grade these exams at a later date, (say, 2 weeks after the first go around) grade many of these exams differently. So much is dependent on outside factors: the order in which the exams are looked at, the professor's mood, and so on.

I was shy of a an A/A- several times, and the response I got when I spoke to my professors was usually: "well, I already gave out all the xyz grades by the time I got to your exam, sorry." In one class a professor sent out a class-wide email apologizing for giving out a bunch of Bs, saying that so many students deserved higher grades, but that he was forced to give them lower grades because of the curve requirement. Now how's that for fairness?
So yes - there is an element of luck to receiving ideal grades on law school exams for many students.

Wow!

That's interesting the professor would actually apologize. Do you atttend a T14?

So, sometimes the order in which your paper is graded can determine whether you get an A/A- or B/B+? That's ridiculous!

Yup. That's why I always turn in my exam at the end so I'm one of the first the professor grades.

scifiguy wrote:

FeelTheHeat wrote:

scifiguy wrote:

dazzleberry wrote:There's a definite level of arbitrariness to law school issue-spotting essay exams. Less so for multiple choice exams and short-answer exams calling for succinct answers.

It's clear enough that a professor with 70 students grading issue-spotting essay exams on tort law (curved of course), will, if forced to re-grade these exams at a later date, (say, 2 weeks after the first go around) grade many of these exams differently. So much is dependent on outside factors: the order in which the exams are looked at, the professor's mood, and so on.

I was shy of a an A/A- several times, and the response I got when I spoke to my professors was usually: "well, I already gave out all the xyz grades by the time I got to your exam, sorry." In one class a professor sent out a class-wide email apologizing for giving out a bunch of Bs, saying that so many students deserved higher grades, but that he was forced to give them lower grades because of the curve requirement. Now how's that for fairness?
So yes - there is an element of luck to receiving ideal grades on law school exams for many students.

Wow!

That's interesting the professor would actually apologize. Do you atttend a T14?

So, sometimes the order in which your paper is graded can determine whether you get an A/A- or B/B+? That's ridiculous!

Yup. That's why I always turn in my exam at the end so I'm one of the first the professor grades.

Seriously??

I mean all kidding aside. These are the considerations that may determine whether someone gets biglaw or ends up possibly with no job after graduation?

Student A turns in exams at the end of the period and gets graded first.

Student B turns in exams towards the beginning and gets graded last.

Despite SA and SB having A-worthy papers, SA gets all A's and A-'s in law school while SB gets median. Because SB attends T15-T20-ish school, where median may not be enough, then SB gets no job after graduation and 150K debt. SA rises to top of the class and gets biglaw.

scifiguy wrote:He sounds serious to me.

Please tell me it's all a jokje! I would love to know that this is not how law school grades really are determined!

scifiguy wrote:

FeelTheHeat wrote:

scifiguy wrote:

dazzleberry wrote:There's a definite level of arbitrariness to law school issue-spotting essay exams. Less so for multiple choice exams and short-answer exams calling for succinct answers.

It's clear enough that a professor with 70 students grading issue-spotting essay exams on tort law (curved of course), will, if forced to re-grade these exams at a later date, (say, 2 weeks after the first go around) grade many of these exams differently. So much is dependent on outside factors: the order in which the exams are looked at, the professor's mood, and so on.

I was shy of a an A/A- several times, and the response I got when I spoke to my professors was usually: "well, I already gave out all the xyz grades by the time I got to your exam, sorry." In one class a professor sent out a class-wide email apologizing for giving out a bunch of Bs, saying that so many students deserved higher grades, but that he was forced to give them lower grades because of the curve requirement. Now how's that for fairness?
So yes - there is an element of luck to receiving ideal grades on law school exams for many students.

Wow!

That's interesting the professor would actually apologize. Do you atttend a T14?

So, sometimes the order in which your paper is graded can determine whether you get an A/A- or B/B+? That's ridiculous!

Yup. That's why I always turn in my exam at the end so I'm one of the first the professor grades.

Do not go to a law school where median will not get you the job you need to recover from the debt you take out. That is a bad plan no matter how grades are determined.

Seriously??

I mean all kidding aside. These are the considerations that may determine whether someone gets biglaw or ends up possibly with no job after graduation?

Student A turns in exams at the end of the period and gets graded first.

Student B turns in exams towards the beginning and gets graded last.

Despite SA and SB having A-worthy papers, SA gets all A's and A-'s in law school while SB gets median. Because SB attends T15-T20-ish school, where median may not be enough, then SB gets no job after graduation and 150K debt. SA rises to top of the class and gets biglaw.

scifiguy wrote:

dazzleberry wrote:There's a definite level of arbitrariness to law school issue-spotting essay exams. Less so for multiple choice exams and short-answer exams calling for succinct answers.

It's clear enough that a professor with 70 students grading issue-spotting essay exams on tort law (curved of course), will, if forced to re-grade these exams at a later date, (say, 2 weeks after the first go around) grade many of these exams differently. So much is dependent on outside factors: the order in which the exams are looked at, the professor's mood, and so on.

I was shy of a an A/A- several times, and the response I got when I spoke to my professors was usually: "well, I already gave out all the xyz grades by the time I got to your exam, sorry." In one class a professor sent out a class-wide email apologizing for giving out a bunch of Bs, saying that so many students deserved higher grades, but that he was forced to give them lower grades because of the curve requirement. Now how's that for fairness?
So yes - there is an element of luck to receiving ideal grades on law school exams for many students.

Wow!

That's interesting the professor would actually apologize. Do you atttend a T14?

So, sometimes the order in which your paper is graded can determine whether you get an A/A- or B/B+? That's ridiculous!

rayiner wrote: I've had several professors post grade distributions. Nothing public, just an email with how many people got how many points. Not a big data set, but enough to see the trend.

It's also the only thing consistent with the observed GPA distributions. If exam ability was more closely packed, you'd have a lower standard deviation in the GPA distribution. I.e. people near the top of the curve would get median-pwned more often, because there was as much margin between them to begin with. But we don't see that.

rayiner wrote: So grades aren't arbitrary in the most literal sense, because if you discover the winning strategy for one exam, and use it consistently, you'll generally do pretty well on all your exams. However, that's not much comfort because there isn't a lot you can do to determine if you've found the winning strategy until you actually take your exams and get your grades.