control over 1L class rank

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quiver
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby quiver » Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:27 pm

Chiming in here to agree with everyone else's points (Captain Hammer, IAFG, crumps, etc.). This exchange pretty much sums it up:

Captain Hammer wrote:
dpk711 wrote:Just don't end up in the bottom of the class. It's as simple as that.

Unfortunately, 50% of people fail to do this every year, despite warnings.

uvabro
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby uvabro » Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:52 pm

i disagree you do have some control over it. some professors will be transparent about their grading system, and they don't lie. if u follow what they say to a tee (quantity v quality) you have a lot of control in how u take the test. most ppl won't change their approach cause they're scared.

uvabro
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby uvabro » Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:55 pm

quiver wrote:Chiming in here to agree with everyone else's points (Captain Hammer, IAFG, crumps, etc.). This exchange pretty much sums it up:

Captain Hammer wrote:
dpk711 wrote:Just don't end up in the bottom of the class. It's as simple as that.

Unfortunately, 50% of people fail to do this every year, despite warnings.

more times than not the amount of work does correlate to exam performance - just not 100%. the ppl who slack off r norm below median. the ppl who work really hard seem to be above median. this is based off of 2l and 3ls i met. the 1s who r above median tend to be at the library more. the 1s who talk about drinking all the time and r rarely there. there's some control. many exceptions but it isn't all random. that's misleading. the extremes are controllable if u learn how to take the tests.

33% v 10% isn't controllable for reasons people said, and similar. also some people just won't get it no matter how hard they study but they r rare at top 14s. the diff is norm a single layer more of analysis. some ppl can get there. some can't. it does become easier the deeper u know the material.

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bk1
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby bk1 » Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:00 pm

uvabro wrote:more times than not the amount of work does correlate to exam performance - just not 100%. the ppl who slack off r norm below median. the ppl who work really hard seem to be above median. this is based off of 2l and 3ls i met. the 1s who r above median tend to be at the library more. the 1s who talk about drinking all the time and r rarely there. there's some control. many exceptions but it isn't all random. that's misleading. the extremes are controllable if u learn how to take the tests.

English, motherfucker, do you speak it?

uvabro
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby uvabro » Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:10 pm

bk1 wrote:
uvabro wrote:more times than not the amount of work does correlate to exam performance - just not 100%. the ppl who slack off r norm below median. the ppl who work really hard seem to be above median. this is based off of 2l and 3ls i met. the 1s who r above median tend to be at the library more. the 1s who talk about drinking all the time and r rarely there. there's some control. many exceptions but it isn't all random. that's misleading. the extremes are controllable if u learn how to take the tests.

English, motherfucker, do you speak it?

im so sick of english. i am only speaking it on tests or when i'm getting paid. no more goddamn english if i'm not on the clock. too much work. not smart enough to just whip out the hawthorne on a motherfucking whim.

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Ohiobumpkin
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby Ohiobumpkin » Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:19 pm

JamMasterJ wrote:two things, though BK already basically told you what I'm gonna say:
1) although there is a decent chance that you'd be above median at TJ if you have a 180/4.0, no one is making that choice. People who are making decisions between big scholly and best school are typically comparing places like WUSTL to UVA. There simply is not enough of a difference in the quality of student body to make that estimation. So while you may be right if you take your theory to its extreme, in practice, it's not a comparison that is worth making. If you are picking between schools that are far enough apart in terms of student quality, you're doing it wrong.
2) If you are doing it that way, ending up at top 1% at TJ is not as good of a scenario in terms of career prospects as ending up below median at Duke. So, good job getting a much higher class rank because you went to a shitty school, but you still get no job.

Either way, doing it this way is asinine.


+1

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BruceWayne
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:18 pm

I'm not going to comment too much on this. But I'll say one thing--JamMaster is overestimating what below median at Duke will get someone. I.e. it won't get them much at all.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby JamMasterJ » Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:22 pm

BruceWayne wrote:I'm not going to comment too much on this. But I'll say one thing--JamMaster is overestimating what below median at Duke will get someone. I.e. it won't get them much at all.

compared to any rank at TJ? Yes it will

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Captain Hammer
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby Captain Hammer » Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:25 pm

JamMasterJ wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:I'm not going to comment too much on this. But I'll say one thing--JamMaster is overestimating what below median at Duke will get someone. I.e. it won't get them much at all.

compared to any rank at TJ? Yes it will

If both get nothing, does one get more nothing than the other?

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JamMasterJ
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby JamMasterJ » Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:52 pm

Captain Hammer wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:I'm not going to comment too much on this. But I'll say one thing--JamMaster is overestimating what below median at Duke will get someone. I.e. it won't get them much at all.

compared to any rank at TJ? Yes it will

If both get nothing, does one get more nothing than the other?

Duke has LRAP.

I was referring to somewhere in the bottom 30-50% range, at which point, there's still hope for you. It's worth noting that although you can't predict a strong correlation between how you perform at one school versus another, I'd argue that someone who's in the bottom quarter at Duke is probably still not going to be top 10% even at TTTs.

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Captain Hammer
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby Captain Hammer » Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:56 pm

JamMasterJ wrote:Duke has LRAP.

Like most LRAPs, Duke LRAP requires a JD-related job. If you can't find legal employment you're still just as boned at Duke as you are at a TTT. LRAP won't help you because you don't have a job.

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mmk33
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby mmk33 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:58 pm

I attend a T1 school with a full scholarship, and there are tutoring signs up near our lockers from a 2010 Stanford JD and a 2011 Duke JD, who want something like $20-30 an hour to tutor 1Ls. This really hammered home the point for me that one can be screwed from any law school.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby JamMasterJ » Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:51 pm

Captain Hammer wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:Duke has LRAP.

Like most LRAPs, Duke LRAP requires a JD-related job. If you can't find legal employment you're still just as boned at Duke as you are at a TTT. LRAP won't help you because you don't have a job.

I'm not saying that there's not a segment of Duke's class that doesn't get any legal job at all, but people a little below median still have a decent shot at getting something, dont they?

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Captain Hammer
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby Captain Hammer » Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:55 pm

JamMasterJ wrote:I'm not saying that there's not a segment of Duke's class that doesn't get any legal job at all, but people a little below median still have a decent shot at getting something, dont they?

They have a non-zero chance, but I wouldn't describe it as "decent". And it's not random at that point, either, but likely attributable to various factors (prior WE, effort put into job search, existing networking/social skills, existing connections, luck). There are some people who will be well and truly hosed if they only make median at Duke. It's a lot easier to end up with nothing than you're suggesting, is my point.

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dingbat
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby dingbat » Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:56 pm

tl dr

The only control you have over your class rank is if you want to be dead last.

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BruceWayne
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:06 pm

It's amazing how many people don't understand what Captain Hammer just explained (and what I was trying to allude to). No job with a top 14 degree as opposed to a "TTT" is still no job. Once you drop below the median, and especially hit the bottom 1/3rd, there's really nothing special about almost any of the top 14 (HYS are different).

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bk1
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby bk1 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:10 pm

BruceWayne wrote:It's amazing how many people don't understand what Captain Hammer just explained (and what I was trying to allude to). No job with a top 14 degree as opposed to a "TTT" is still no job. Once you drop below the median, and especially hit the bottom 1/3rd, there's really nothing special about almost any of the top 14 (HYS are different).

While having shit grades does lower the luster of a T14 degree, it is hyperbolic to say that there is "really nothing special" about a T14 with below median grades. Is it a crappy position to be in? Of course, but there are still advantages. I'm not saying those advantages are worth 250k debt, but it does a disservice to the argument to say that they don't exist.

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BruceWayne
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:16 pm

bk1 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:It's amazing how many people don't understand what Captain Hammer just explained (and what I was trying to allude to). No job with a top 14 degree as opposed to a "TTT" is still no job. Once you drop below the median, and especially hit the bottom 1/3rd, there's really nothing special about almost any of the top 14 (HYS are different).

While having shit grades does lower the luster of a T14 degree, it is hyperbolic to say that there is "really nothing special" about a T14 with below median grades. Is it a crappy position to be in? Of course, but there are still advantages. I'm not saying those advantages are worth 250k debt, but it does a disservice to the argument to say that they don't exist.


What exactly do you think are the advantages of having a non HYS top 14 degree with bottom 1/3rd grades (or even below median)? Dinner table bragging about having attended Duke, Georgetown, or Cornell law? In the case of NYU, Michigan, UVA and Penn you don't even get that benefit.

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bk1
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby bk1 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:21 pm

BruceWayne wrote:What exactly do you think are the advantages of having a non HYS top 14 degree with bottom 1/3rd grades (or even below median)?

Biglaw firms call back and hire people with below median grades. It's not highly likely, but it's not so rare as to not be an advantage.

cynthiad
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby cynthiad » Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:23 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:
bk1 wrote:You cannot guarantee your class rank in any way. You can and should work hard, but that does not mean you will do well. Plenty of smart, hard-working people end up below median.


This isn't exactly true. Attend a school where you are above the 75th percentile of LSAT and GPA, and you will be getting a lot of scholarship money + much better chance of high class rank.

oh not this bullshit again


you know, it's annoying to have this type of idiotic response. I have news for TLSers: if you are 4.0 180 LSAT and you attend Thomas Jefferson Law School you have a better than 50% chance of being above median. In fact you have an excellent chance of top 10%.


Doing well in law school requires some ambition. Attending TJLS over HYS shows an appalling lack of ambition.

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dingbat
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby dingbat » Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:38 pm

cynthiad wrote:you know, it's annoying to have this type of idiotic response. I have news for TLSers: if you are 4.0 180 LSAT and you attend Thomas Jefferson Law School you have a better than 50% chance of being above median. In fact you have an excellent chance of top 10%.

Well, great, you'll be one of the 10% of TJLS grads to work at a law firm that isn't a startup.
A feat that is just as easily possible by being dead-last at Harvard; which that 4.0/180 could also have gotten into

Volake
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby Volake » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:07 pm

The posts in this thread seem to suggest that it would be rare that the "high relative stats factor" (having good lsat/gpa in relation to your peers, and consequently a bit of a statistical advantage in testing performance) would be enough to justify attending a lower ranked school. I would agree with this claim, but I'm not sure I would go so far to say that one shouldn't consider HRSF. In conjunction with other other factors, such as a wide scholarship discrepancy favoring the lower school, disparities in amounts of law school competition in the school's relative region, and many other reasons that might favor the lower institution, I don't see why HRSF shouldn't be taken at all into consideration.

I apologize if this position isn't what most are contending, but if it isn't, one may benefit from clarification.

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dingbat
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby dingbat » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:33 pm

Volake wrote:The posts in this thread seem to suggest that it would be rare that the "high relative stats factor" (having good lsat/gpa in relation to your peers, and consequently a bit of a statistical advantage in testing performance) would be enough to justify attending a lower ranked school. I would agree with this claim, but I'm not sure I would go so far to say that one shouldn't consider HRSF. In conjunction with other other factors, such as a wide scholarship discrepancy favoring the lower school, disparities in amounts of law school competition in the school's relative region, and many other reasons that might favor the lower institution, I don't see why HRSF shouldn't be taken at all into consideration.

I apologize if this position isn't what most are contending, but if it isn't, one may benefit from clarification.

The issue is how much lower you want to go. Choosing between a lower T14 and, say, WUSTL with money, is not uncommon, but the statistical difference between the student bodies is minimal. On the other hand, for someone choosing between New York University School of Law and New York Law School, the statistical discrepancy is huge, but so are the job prospects (top 10% at NYLS doesn't have better job prospects than bottom 1/3 at NYU)

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Lwoods
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby Lwoods » Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:18 pm

crumpetsandtea wrote:
WahooLaw wrote:The best predictor for grades is how you have fared in a similar environment. If you have consistently gotten A's in writing-heavy classes in undergrad (poli sic, philosophy, history, etc.) at a school like an Ivy, Duke, Chicago, UVa, Michigan, Cal, or one of the top liberal arts colleges, there's no reason why hard work shouldn't get you well into the top half of a T14. In this circumstance, undergrad GPA has a decent correlation to law school GPA.

As much as it might help your admission, high GPAs from less consistent schools or majors that don't require analytical writing on timed exams have much less predictive value. LSAT by itself is meaningless because it doesn't test your writing ability or work ethic.

I have no sources for any of this other than personal experience and observation at my law school.

I think this flew under the radar with all the hutz derpalerp and I wanted to address it - apologies if someone else already made this point.

1) Statistically, the LSAT has a HIGHER correlation with LS grades than UG GPA. This makes sense if you think about it - the LSAT is everyone compared to each other, UG GPA is subjective based on major/school/etc. (ETA: with that said, neither of them REALLY correlates enough to safely say that a high GPA/high LSAT will guarantee any sort of grades)

2) If we're going to go anecdotally here, I know at least 5-10 people from my school alone who were sub-3.0 splitters in UG and are now top third of their class. Low GPA, high LS rank, YOU CANT EXPLAIN THAT. ( XP )

3) The key here is not what your stats were, but how you apply yourself and learn from whatever mistakes you made when taking the LSAT/studying in college. If you had a 2.9 and you don't change your study habits, then yeah you're fucked. If you had a 2.9 and you learn from it and change/improve, then things will be different.

4) But honestly, in the end...no one can predict their grade. The most you can do is work hard, listen in class, do the readings, and study smart.


5) Don't go through a breakup or divorce or pregnancy or death/illness of a loved one, etc...

I know many law students aren't big on math, but DF's point about the margin for the LSAT is key. When you're looking at the top 50 schools, the range of LSAT scores is relatively small, and many are within each others' margins. If you look at the LSAT scores of those same schools, there is often a 2-3 point range from the 25th percentile to the 75th percentile. So yes, on the macro scale, people who earn 170s on the LSAT tend to do better than those who earn 150s. However, when the differences are between 164 and 168 or 168 and 174, while the score differences can have a huge impact on admissions, they're actually incredibly close generally and probable not that indicative of performance in law school.

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manofjustice
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby manofjustice » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:21 pm

sheisrisen wrote:Hey bud,

Full ride, t14, over 75% in gpa and lsat, now a 2L who finished 1L well below median. listen to people who know what they are talking about. the worst thing you can do in law school is assume that you can't fail or can't perform poorly. complacency and self-satisfaction lead to below median results.


What happened? Do you know how you went off the rails?




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