control over 1L class rank

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Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:59 pm

I've seen it. There's no information directly related to the question I asked you, and it does confirm that students about both 75th percentile have a mucher better chance of being above median.

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bk1
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby bk1 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:08 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:I've seen it. There's no information directly related to the question I asked you, and it does confirm that students about both 75th percentile have a mucher better chance of being above median.


I do not know anybody who did the thing you are saying, but I like how you are assuming you're right until proven wrong (even though the mountain of evidence is against you). I can count the number of people whose approximate grades I know on 2 hands and I don't know a ton of people at lower ranked schools (so it's unsurprising that I don't know anyone fitting your description).

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BruceWayne
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:10 pm

I really hate to jump on this argument for a variety of reasons, but I've got to admit that I've never, and I mean never, met someone who attended an ivy who didn't do well at UVA. I mean honestly, I don't even know anyone who went to an ivy who was below a 3.3 let alone bottom 1/3. On top of that I know that those who transferred in from lower ranked schools with sky high grades have struggled to get B+s at UVA.

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homestyle28
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby homestyle28 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:30 pm

I know several folks who attended prestigious UGs who are at and below Median at NU. Also know a lot of state schooled kids at top of the class. Most of us have never been on a real curve before, certainly not with other smart, hard-working classmates, that changes the game significantly.

lizardclick
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby lizardclick » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:08 am

I wonder the same things. Just go hard, lift hard and do the best you personally can. No gaurantees OP but just try and hit your personal best. That said I think the tls mantra of don't go anywhere you wouldn't be OK I'd you wind up median is sound.

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hume85
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby hume85 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:44 pm

A lot of you guys are confusing a predictor having weak predictive ability with it having no predictive ability. I am pretty sure law schools use the LSAT as a factor in admission because of its predictive (albeit weak) value in determining 1L grades. So, saying it that it tells you nothing is wrong.

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bk1
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby bk1 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:00 pm

hume85 wrote:A lot of you guys are confusing a predictor having weak predictive ability with it having no predictive ability. I am pretty sure law schools use the LSAT as a factor in admission because of its predictive (albeit weak) value in determining 1L grades. So, saying it that it tells you nothing is wrong.


I don't know who you're referring to with "[a] lot of you guys," but nobody has denied it being a weak predictor. The point that I (and others) were making is that a weak predictor should not have any bearing in the decision to pick a certain school.

katjust
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby katjust » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:14 pm

I have graduated. Most of the people in the top 25% of my law school class (that I know of) had close to or above 75% LSAT scores. I don't know about their GPA. I am not saying one should pick a school based on that, but for the most part my experience is that higher LSAT scores = higher class rank. I doubt that this is as true at a T-14 because most of the people at those schools have a top 5% or better LSAT score, so the difference is not as striking. However, if you can get a 165+ on the LSAT without extensive studying, and you work decently hard at a school ranked in T2 or worse, you will almost certainly be at worst in the top 25%.

I know there are statistics showing a correlation between LSAT score and class rank, but I am willing to bet someone with those scores at a T2 school will have little problem obtaining such a rank. That is my experience, and I know that is just anecdotal evidence, but I am pretty confident about it.

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cinephile
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby cinephile » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:16 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Every thread in TLS about full ride v. T14 has people who have done this weighing in to say they finished top of their class. I have yet to hear anyone on this site or elsewhere who attended full ride and ended up below median.


Just saw this and had to say this is dead wrong. People on TLS write threads all the time saying, "Should I drop out, I'm below median but I have no debt because of a full ride?" I saw this tons at the end of both first and second semester.

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:15 pm

cinephile wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Every thread in TLS about full ride v. T14 has people who have done this weighing in to say they finished top of their class. I have yet to hear anyone on this site or elsewhere who attended full ride and ended up below median.


Just saw this and had to say this is dead wrong. People on TLS write threads all the time saying, "Should I drop out, I'm below median but I have no debt because of a full ride?" I saw this tons at the end of both first and second semester.


I've read every thread I could find and there ate multiple saying "no debt-- my dad/uncle/aunt" paid but not "no debt--merit scholarship with full ride, I bombed." I would be interested if anyone can find one of these.

sheisrisen
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby sheisrisen » Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:52 pm

Hey bud,

Full ride, t14, over 75% in gpa and lsat, now a 2L who finished 1L well below median. listen to people who know what they are talking about. the worst thing you can do in law school is assume that you can't fail or can't perform poorly. complacency and self-satisfaction lead to below median results.

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hume85
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby hume85 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:04 am

bk1 wrote:
hume85 wrote:A lot of you guys are confusing a predictor having weak predictive ability with it having no predictive ability. I am pretty sure law schools use the LSAT as a factor in admission because of its predictive (albeit weak) value in determining 1L grades. So, saying it that it tells you nothing is wrong.


I don't know who you're referring to with "[a] lot of you guys," but nobody has denied it being a weak predictor. The point that I (and others) were making is that a weak predictor should not have any bearing in the decision to pick a certain school.


Sorry, you're right. I confused this thread with a similar one in which people were saying that LSAT had no predictive ability, and my post in this thread was addressing them. I retract my previous statement.

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:24 pm

sheisrisen wrote:Hey bud,

Full ride, t14, over 75% in gpa and lsat, now a 2L who finished 1L well below median. listen to people who know what they are talking about. the worst thing you can do in law school is assume that you can't fail or can't perform poorly. complacency and self-satisfaction lead to below median results.


lol how about we require a minimum of 2 posts for people testifying to something for the first time on TLS

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minnbills
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby minnbills » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:30 pm

From one 1L to another I understand why you want some reassurance, but you can't boil this down to some formula.

sheisrisen
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby sheisrisen » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:09 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:
sheisrisen wrote:Hey bud,

Full ride, t14, over 75% in gpa and lsat, now a 2L who finished 1L well below median. listen to people who know what they are talking about. the worst thing you can do in law school is assume that you can't fail or can't perform poorly. complacency and self-satisfaction lead to below median results.


lol how about we require a minimum of 2 posts for people testifying to something for the first time on TLS



yes i made a profile 1 month ago just so i could troll on your post. clearly you are top of the curve material.

AllTheLawz
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby AllTheLawz » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:21 pm

sheisrisen wrote:Hey bud,

Full ride, t14, over 75% in gpa and lsat, now a 2L who finished 1L well below median. listen to people who know what they are talking about. the worst thing you can do in law school is assume that you can't fail or can't perform poorly. complacency and self-satisfaction lead to below median results.


Above the LSAT 75th percentile and GPA right at the median for the school I chose to attend. Finished below median after 1L.

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IAFG
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby IAFG » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:27 pm

sheisrisen wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:
sheisrisen wrote:Hey bud,

Full ride, t14, over 75% in gpa and lsat, now a 2L who finished 1L well below median. listen to people who know what they are talking about. the worst thing you can do in law school is assume that you can't fail or can't perform poorly. complacency and self-satisfaction lead to below median results.


lol how about we require a minimum of 2 posts for people testifying to something for the first time on TLS



yes i made a profile 1 month ago just so i could troll on your post. clearly you are top of the curve material.

lol pwnd

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:59 pm

IAFG wrote:
sheisrisen wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:
sheisrisen wrote:Hey bud,

Full ride, t14, over 75% in gpa and lsat, now a 2L who finished 1L well below median. listen to people who know what they are talking about. the worst thing you can do in law school is assume that you can't fail or can't perform poorly. complacency and self-satisfaction lead to below median results.


lol how about we require a minimum of 2 posts for people testifying to something for the first time on TLS



yes i made a profile 1 month ago just so i could troll on your post. clearly you are top of the curve material.

lol pwnd


It's ridiculous to get into an argument with someone who has no history and there is no reason to think is creditable. Here's a sample LR problem for you:

I made this account 1 month ago.
Therefore, the account is legitimate.

What is the missing assumption?
a) there's no way anyone would make an account, not use it, and it would not be legitimate
b) someone who is above 75th percentiles for a T14 is this stupid
c) LOL this is the idiot who is engaging me in an argument on TLS
d) the fact you made an account 1 month ago and never posted under it is very strange
e) all law school grades are arbitrary

I'm sorry this happened, if true. You are literally the first person to report this (factual or not). I made a thread on this topic viewtopic.php?f=1&t=187209 with 2-3k views, and I've heard from no credible poster there say the same thing or anywhere else on TLS, on the internet, or in real life.

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Bronte
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby Bronte » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:01 pm

LAST and GPA have an extremely high correlation to law school performance. It seems like a low number (it's like a .40 coeffecient or something), but that's about as high as you'll ever see with real world regression analysis. The problem is, as others have said, it's not clear that this is enough to justify picking a lower ranked school. After all, the correlation between school rank and job placement is also extremely high. But, yes, if you're looking at a full ride at a regional school in the region in which you want to practice, that might be a good choice.

sheisrisen
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby sheisrisen » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:03 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:
IAFG wrote:
sheisrisen wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:
lol how about we require a minimum of 2 posts for people testifying to something for the first time on TLS



yes i made a profile 1 month ago just so i could troll on your post. clearly you are top of the curve material.

lol pwnd


It's ridiculous to get into an argument with someone who has no history and there is no reason to think is creditable. Here's a sample LR problem for you:

I made this account 1 month ago.
Therefore, the account is legitimate.

What is the missing assumption?
a) there's no way anyone would make an account, not use it, and it would not be legitimate
b) someone who is above 75th percentiles for a T14 is this stupid
c) LOL this is the idiot who is engaging me in an argument on TLS
d) the fact you made an account 1 month ago and never posted under it is very strange
e) all law school grades are arbitrary

I'm sorry this happened, if true. You are literally the first person to report this (factual or not). I made a thread on this topic http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=187209 with 2-3k views, and I've heard from no credible poster there say the same thing or anywhere else on TLS, on the internet, or in real life.


someone else said something similar after me. i guess people aren't bragging about having bad grades, so we are a low turnout. based on your post history, it seems as though you are looking for people to tell you you will be at the top of your class and have a great job because you have a named scholarship PLUS STIPEND OMG. i just tried to tell you that it's great to think that, but please make sure you still work your ass off and don't count your egg before it hatches. i'll try to keep my helpful, solicited answers to myself next time.

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:04 pm

yes i made a profile 1 month ago just so i could troll on your post. clearly you are top of the curve material.[/quote]
lol pwnd[/quote]

It's ridiculous to get into an argument with someone who has no history and there is no reason to think is creditable. Here's a sample LR problem for you:

I made this account 1 month ago.
Therefore, the account is legitimate.

What is the missing assumption?
a) there's no way anyone would make an account, not use it, and it would not be legitimate
b) someone who is above 75th percentiles for a T14 is this stupid
c) LOL this is the idiot who is engaging me in an argument on TLS
d) the fact you made an account 1 month ago and never posted under it is very strange
e) all law school grades are arbitrary

I'm sorry this happened, if true. You are literally the first person to report this (factual or not). I made a thread on this topic viewtopic.php?f=1&t=187209 with 2-3k views, and I've heard from no credible poster there say the same thing or anywhere else on TLS, on the internet, or in real life.[/quote]

someone else said something similar after me. i guess people aren't bragging about having bad grades, so we are a low turnout. based on your post history, it seems as though you are looking for people to tell you you will be at the top of your class and have a great job because you have a named scholarship PLUS STIPEND OMG. i just tried to tell you that it's great to think that, but please make sure you still work your ass off and don't count your egg before it hatches. i'll try to keep my helpful, solicited answers to myself next time.[/quote]\\

you didn't answer the question i wrote for you

09042014
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby 09042014 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:05 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Well, to be honest I think I have zero chance of being below median, but there is a danger of ending up between top 25% and median. And in response to the OP, the question is: how can I control class rank? All of us know that where you finish in your class plays a huge role in your career prospects. I have heard many people say essentially that grades are pure randomness, so and so never worked and is top of class, other people worked 24/7 below median, and I do think that can be true. If you have 1 LSAT point above median or .05 above GPA median you would be misguided to think you have a huge edge. But based on what I've seen at my school I think that a random person has an average chance of median, and I think a full scholarship student is working with the top half of the grade curve. They have an average chance of top 25%, and they may underperform that (25%-50%) or over perform (1-25%). I know this sounds boastful and naive (I am a 1L, no doubt) but i literally cannot find one person who is full ride and bottom half of the class anywhere, from talking to dozens of people who have made this choice, consulting law school stats, looking through threads on TLS, etc etc.


You're deluding yourself if you don't think you can finish below median. You probably have around a 1/4 chance of being below median. This should help clear things up for you (by former LSAC chair): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7_xHsce57c&t=15m0s (Ironically you're actually right that someone who dominates their school's medians probably will end up somewhere around top quartile.)

OP asked "how can I control class rank?" You can't control rank. You can control what you do (studying) but at the end of the day you cannot guarantee you will fall anywhere in the curve (except at the bottom if you choose to fail your finals). Grades are not purely random, but that doesn't mean you can guarantee any outcome (even as simple an outcome as top 75%).


Listen, I'm curious. If you can put me in touch with someone who attended a top 50 school with a full ride + scholarship and ended up bottom 50%, I'll give you $20. just PM your address and I'll send you a bill. I'm not saying this to be an asshole at all, but literally I can't find any counter-evidence to the position I'm advocating.


What separates someone who gets a fullride and someone who gets waitlisted at most schools, is within the margin of error for the LSAT. Me and Rayiner did the math once, and while the advantage is significant. The job in job placement power is almost always worse. To get a huge class rank boost (really a probable boost, you could be the worst in the class), you'd need to go to a really shitty school.

Even if the average T14 student could get top 10% at John Marshall, top 10% at John Marshall still doesn't get you a callback at Chicago big law.

sheisrisen
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby sheisrisen » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:05 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:yes i made a profile 1 month ago just so i could troll on your post. clearly you are top of the curve material.

lol pwnd[/quote]

It's ridiculous to get into an argument with someone who has no history and there is no reason to think is creditable. Here's a sample LR problem for you:

I made this account 1 month ago.
Therefore, the account is legitimate.

What is the missing assumption?
a) there's no way anyone would make an account, not use it, and it would not be legitimate
b) someone who is above 75th percentiles for a T14 is this stupid
c) LOL this is the idiot who is engaging me in an argument on TLS
d) the fact you made an account 1 month ago and never posted under it is very strange
e) all law school grades are arbitrary

I'm sorry this happened, if true. You are literally the first person to report this (factual or not). I made a thread on this topic http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=187209 with 2-3k views, and I've heard from no credible poster there say the same thing or anywhere else on TLS, on the internet, or in real life.[/quote]

someone else said something similar after me. i guess people aren't bragging about having bad grades, so we are a low turnout. based on your post history, it seems as though you are looking for people to tell you you will be at the top of your class and have a great job because you have a named scholarship PLUS STIPEND OMG. i just tried to tell you that it's great to think that, but please make sure you still work your ass off and don't count your egg before it hatches. i'll try to keep my helpful, solicited answers to myself next time.[/quote]\\

you didn't answer the question i wrote for you[/quote]

the missing assumption is that you are rude and condescending to people who are trying to be helpful to you. you are violating wheaton's law.

09042014
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby 09042014 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:08 pm

lizardclick wrote:I wonder the same things. Just go hard, lift hard and do the best you personally can. No gaurantees OP but just try and hit your personal best. That said I think the tls mantra of don't go anywhere you wouldn't be OK I'd you wind up median is sound.


You can't gun your way to median. Half the class fails. The advice should be Don't go anywhere you wouldn't mind being bottom quarter, then gun pretty hard. Even that is unrealistic if you don't take the time to learn the exam style needed.

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Captain Hammer
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Re: control over 1L class rank

Postby Captain Hammer » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:09 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Listen, I'm curious. If you can put me in touch with someone who attended a top 50 school with a full ride + scholarship and ended up bottom 50%, I'll give you $20. just PM your address and I'll send you a bill. I'm not saying this to be an asshole at all, but literally I can't find any counter-evidence to the position I'm advocating.

I personally knew someone at T14 who had a full merit scholarship and ended up below median. This person just couldn't wrap their head around how to do well on law school exams. It happens. I'm not saying it's common, but I am saying I have personal knowledge that it happens.

I can't put you in touch with them because it'd violate their confidence, but it happens.
Last edited by Captain Hammer on Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.




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