University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions - 2012 Forum

[basketball law guy]

JayhawkLaw-

Thanks for your reply and you will definitely be receiving my application in a month or so.

[cahwc12]

@ cahw

We're strong advocates of transparency, which is why we post extensive, detailed employment information on our website (http://www.law.ku.edu/success-stats). If you have additional questions about our employment statistics, I encourage you to post any questions here at TLS or send me a personal e-mail.

I should apologize because I didn't carefully search your website before asking. I think it would still be prudent to submit an NALP report to law school transparency in the interest of voluntary compliance to their greater aims (since most schools do NOT publish statistics anywhere near the level of detail that you do on your website), but I'm honestly unsure if it would contain any data not already mentioned on your site.


Along that line, I'd like to ask your thoughts as a law school dean on how schools often conceal their employment data and charge outrageous tuition? Have you personally tried to effect changes in law school education on a grander scale than just Kansas, or is it not a fight you can wage? And would you advocate for more employment data than is required by ABA to be collected, such as salary data and more specific types of employment?

Thanks for your reply.

[JayhawkLaw]

@ cahw

Thanks for the kind words. As I mentioned, we strive to provide thorough, comprehensive data on our website so students can make informed choices.

Regarding your question about what other law schools do, I'd prefer not to get sidetracked from the purpose of this thread - to answer questions about KU Law. As to regards to KU Law, we are proud of our record in being transparent, keeping tuition reasonable, and providing a First Class Legal education. Other schools will have to speak for themselves.

[kidorie]

I intend to apply to KU Law school. If I am graduating from KU-Undergrad in the Spring, can I apply for Summer admission to law school? Can I apply and decide whether to begin summer once theoretically admitted or do I need to make a commitment to Summer of Fall start when applying? What will my admission decision look like? I assume it would be contingent upon successful graduation in the spring. As of current, my GPA is slightly below median but my LSAT score should be above median by at least a few points (based on practice exams). If I'm not taking the LSAT until December, am I going to be too late to even apply for summer?

Also, should I submit my application sooner than my LSAT score is reported to give admissions more time to start looking at my other information? Would applying earlier despite a later LSAT score reporting date benefit me in any way?

Thanks for your time!

[btp]

Steve,

I have heard that KU Law is overly concerned with LSAT scores. From LSAC data it looks like KU Law roughly weights the LSAT to be about 80% and GPA 20%. How many applicants did KU Law accept last year that scored less than a 148 on the LSAT?

[JayhawkLaw]

@ kidorie

Yes, you can graduate in spring and start in May. This year we had about a dozen students do that and I think they all are happy they did so. Keep in mind that Summer Starters get about a three week break before the start of the fall semester, so you'll still have a chance for some summer vacation.

To apply for the Summer Start program, complete the regular application and mark the box for Summer Start. You will have until April 15 to change your mind. Also, you are fine to take the December LSAT and apply for the Summer Start.

For those of you unfamiliar with the Summer Start program, please view our website at http://www.law.ku.edu/summerstart.

[JayhawkLaw]

@ btp

We don't use an index or other formula, so we don't weigh LSAT and GPA by percentage. LSAT and GPA are important, but we don't feed numbers into a computer. Instead, we review each application as a whole, including personal statements, transcripts, letters of recommendation, etc. Regarding students with low LSAT scores, it's true we do not admit many students with scores below 150 (six below 150, one below 148). The reason for this is that we do not want to admit anyone who we fear will not succeed in law school or be ready to pass a bar exam. Although LSAT scores are not perfect indicators of law school performance, there is a strong correlation between the two. Keep in mind we do not employ cutoffs and would make an offer to someone with a lower LSAT, in the past we have made offers to students with LSAT scores below even 145.

I don't think all this means we are overly concerned about the LSAT. Although the LSAT is an important compenent of our evaluation, we are committed to evaluating everyone on their entire record.

[basketball law guy]

JayHawkLaw-

disappointed in my LSAT (low 150's) and will be retaking in December. I also want to apply to KU Law next week. I will have strong GPA, achievements, honors and LOR's. Should I apply knowing that I am retaking in December or just wait and apply after my 2nd LSAT score is known? Thanks

[crawleytown]

Do out of state students face a disadvantage when looking for jobs. I'm from Oklahoma and would like to attend KU but am worried that since I'm not from Kansas, just attending law school there would not be enough to convince employers I want to stay and work in Kansas.

[JayhawkLaw]

@basketballlawguy

I suggest going ahead and applying now, you'll have everything ready and you'll be able to concentrate on practicing for the LSAT. Just make sure to indicate on the application that you will be retaking the LSAT in December.

[JayhawkLaw]

@crawleytown

We have a good number of students from out of state who find employment in Kansas. I think going to law school here should reassure any employers of your genuine interest for living in Kansas, especially since Oklahoma is a neighboring state. Regardless of which part of the country students want to practice in, we always encourage them to intern in the locale they hope to live in. So if you're interested in working in Dallas, students should look for summer employment there. Same goes for wanting to work in Kansas.

[jared6180]

Attended the Open House tonight, good crowd and lots of information. I was particularly impressed with Arturo...Is he a great salesman or is he really that good!?!? At first I thought he was over the top concerning his abilities until Prof Hecker said that he was a HUGE upgrade for that position in the school.

[basketball law guy]

jared1680- did you get a good feel for the school and applicants? Anything relevant to share with applicants like us who will not be able to attend an open house? I have visited KU a couple times and love the school and campus. KU is definitely one of my top choices. Schools seem to be sending out acceptances earlier this year- any thoughts on when Kansas will start the process?? Already accepted at a couple schools but I will wait for KU.

[jared6180]

jared1680- did you get a good feel for the school and applicants? Anything relevant to share with applicants like us who will not be able to attend an open house? I have visited KU a couple times and love the school and campus. KU is definitely one of my top choices. Schools seem to be sending out acceptances earlier this year- any thoughts on when Kansas will start the process?? Already accepted at a couple schools but I will wait for KU.

Everyone was just down to earth, even the current students. I expected someone, anyone to be a pretentious snot, however it just never happened. I have visited a couple schools now, and I must say the Career Services Office demonstrates a much more aggressive approach to helping students at KU than any other school I have visited. This aggressive approach is exactly what we need in these perilous times of legal employment.

I live within 5 miles of my safety school and within 30 miles of KU. I will not be applying to my safety school because I just do not feel they approach career services with the same tenacity as KU, and lets be honest, 99% of us in this cycle DON'T have jobs waiting for us, and will NEED a strong advocate in helping us get a job.

[okiedokie33]

In terms of scholarships, is there a limit on what out of state students can receive. I am strongly considering KU but the cost is still a concern, since oos tuition is about 32K/year.

[TatteredDignity]

I live within 5 miles of my safety school and within 30 miles of KU. I will not be applying to my safety school because I just do not feel they approach career services with the same tenacity as KU, and lets be honest, 99% of us in this cycle DON'T have jobs waiting for us, and will NEED a strong advocate in helping us get a job.

I know this is off-topic, but it's a little troubling to see 0Ls acknowledge this and still have enough cognitive dissonance to press on. Why? How?

[jared6180]

I live within 5 miles of my safety school and within 30 miles of KU. I will not be applying to my safety school because I just do not feel they approach career services with the same tenacity as KU, and lets be honest, 99% of us in this cycle DON'T have jobs waiting for us, and will NEED a strong advocate in helping us get a job.

I know this is off-topic, but it's a little troubling to see 0Ls acknowledge this and still have enough cognitive dissonance to press on. Why? How?

Because you directed this in my direction by quoting me I just thought I would take the question on head on from MY PERSONAL point of view, this does not in any way imply others feel or think the same way. Then we can get back on topic!

If you can't acknowledge the general consensus than you shouldn't go to law school and the general consensus is that post-law school employment numbers are way down right now. Special snowflakes need not apply. But I am not the guy that considers law school an automatic ticket to a $160k job. I don't. It is a way for me to get an education that will help me help others. While a Big Firm job would be nice for paying off the law school debt I may accrue and building a nice net worth, it is in no way necessary for me to achieve my goals in the LONGER term, a JD however will likely be the difference in me achieving my personal career dreams or not.

I might be wrong, but I do think the legal field will be picking up a bit more now that the elections are over and Obama has four more years to put his policies in place. Again, this is just my own belief in our current system and situation.

NOW lets get back on topic...KU LAW!!!

[TatteredDignity]

I was a 0L a couple of years ago, and I really wanted to go to KU law because I did my undergrad there. But I just couldn't. To KU's credit, their low tuition cost prevents graduates from being in outrageous debt when they graduate. But that's not much consolation if you can't get a job. One of my friends is now a 3L there, is in the top 5 students in the class, and doesn't have a job. Like you, he also isn't demanding a $160k job. He'll take anything.

But if you truly just want the degree for your "personal career dreams" and you don't mind dropping 50k or whatever to get it, then god bless you and more power to you. I mean that seriously.

[okiedokie33]

I live within 5 miles of my safety school and within 30 miles of KU. I will not be applying to my safety school because I just do not feel they approach career services with the same tenacity as KU, and lets be honest, 99% of us in this cycle DON'T have jobs waiting for us, and will NEED a strong advocate in helping us get a job.

I know this is off-topic, but it's a little troubling to see 0Ls acknowledge this and still have enough cognitive dissonance to press on. Why? How?

Because you directed this in my direction by quoting me I just thought I would take the question on head on from MY PERSONAL point of view, this does not in any way imply others feel or think the same way. Then we can get back on topic!

If you can't acknowledge the general consensus than you shouldn't go to law school and the general consensus is that post-law school employment numbers are way down right now. Special snowflakes need not apply. But I am not the guy that considers law school an automatic ticket to a $160k job. I don't. It is a way for me to get an education that will help me help others. While a Big Firm job would be nice for paying off the law school debt I may accrue and building a nice net worth, it is in no way necessary for me to achieve my goals in the LONGER term, a JD however will likely be the difference in me achieving my personal career dreams or not.

I might be wrong, but I do think the legal field will be picking up a bit more now that the elections are over and Obama has four more years to put his policies in place. Again, this is just my own belief in our current system and situation.

NOW lets get back on topic...KU LAW!!!

HA, if Obama is able to put his policies in place the legal field will be dead in 4 years

[Sheffield]

HA, if Obama is able to put his policies in place the legal field will be dead in 4 years

What leads you to believe that?

[JayhawkLaw]

Thought I'd take a break from eating Thanksgiving leftovers - thanks Prof. Kronk and her fiance Connor for awesome turkey dinner - to highlight our student blogs. We've had two really cool postings from current 1L Jake McMillian and 2L Zak Beasley. http://kuschooloflaw.blogspot.com/

Zak posted a recount of his experiences undertaking Marines Corps OCS...

No joke, stepping off that bus was like stepping into another dimension. Behind you was the world you knew: you were familiar with this world, you had a pretty good idea how it worked and you thought you were pretty badass for it. But once your foot left the bus and landed on that hot asphalt known as Brown Field – also known as Officer Candidate School (OCS) for the United States Marine Corps – you knew you were no longer in the world that you knew and loved.

Jake talked about experiencing election night as a KU 1L...

When election night finally came around, there was buzz in Green Hall. Anxiety levels (from fear of future and fear of finals) were high, and people were itching to leave the building to go watch the coverage. The election watch-parties were tense, too, with students frantically Facebooking and Tweeting the release of precinct results from races and initiatives across the country.

[JayhawkLaw]

Two more great blog entries...

Class of 2012 graduates Zach Roberson and Carlos Hernandez are chronicling their efforts to start their own immigration law practice in Kansas. They both spent some time working for an immigration clinic to learn the ropes.

1L Ashlyn Lindskog wrote a funny, thoughtful piece on what it's like to be a newlywed married to a soldier, and a first year law student.

Enjoy.

http://kuschooloflaw.blogspot.com/

[JayhawkLaw]

In other news...

Kudos to the 37 out of 38 KU Law first time test takers who passed the Missouri bar exam this summer. For the July 2012 exam, KU Law led all law schools with a first-time pass rate of 97.4%!

[MrAnon]

Average debt load of a KU law grad is somewhere around 67k if I recall correctly. On the standard 25 year repayment plan including capitalized interest I believe that means the average KU law grad on the 25 year repayment plan will owe well over $100,000k. Do you agree?

[TatteredDignity]

Average debt load of a KU law grad is somewhere around 67k if I recall correctly. On the standard 25 year repayment plan including capitalized interest I believe that means the average KU law grad on the 25 year repayment plan will owe well over $100,000k. Do you agree?

Dude, chill. Your rhetorical questions aren't adding anything, and $100k for a law degree is pretty cheap these days. Is that worth it? different question. but compared to everyone else, it's really good. Pick on something else.