Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

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IAFG
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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby IAFG » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:22 pm

bk1 wrote:You are at a school where people are within a narrow LSAT/GPA band. On top of that, the correlation is weak.

Essentially, this. Top schools tend to admit people who are largely predictive index peers; splitters, reverse splitters, not to mention almost exclusively people within a handful of percentile points from each other on the LSAT. It's pure arrogance and folly to imagine that anything you've done up to now has any reliable predictive power over your first year grades.

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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby ksllaw » Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:13 am

rayiner, one follow-up question I had for you was regarding government/public interest law. You mentioned that these positions were harder to obtain than even big law jobs in the past, but I'm curious about specific two types of "government law":

a.) military - such as JAG

b.) criminal public defense - locally as a public defender

Would you happen to know if even these types of positions are difficult to get in government law nowadays?

Both sounded "less prestigious" (apologies for even having to use that phrase for lack of an immediate better term) than the other types of government law that I had heard mentioned before (e.g. federal clerkships, regulations - such as FDIC, SEC...and the like). Is there a hierarchy that you know of for government law jobs? And if so, would these two types generally be easier to obtain (than big law) nowadays?

[note: I realized I may have just conflated gov't law with public interest law above and if so I apologize...the two terms seem to run together in my mind a little bit...and it's EARLY in the morning! :? )

rayiner wrote:This looks about right. Note these are quite a bit lower than the numbers you originally gave: "over 50% of Michigan grads...30% of Columbia grads...33% of Duke grads...etc." These are along the lines of the analysis I did a few months ago (viewtopic.php?f=23&t=181723) so I obviously think the methodology is reasonable. These also seem consistent with what I've observed "on the ground" with C/O 2012 at NU.


Right, but those initial numbers were from Campos himself! :mrgreen: From the lecture video. So, he seems to have given two sets of numbers.

I'll take a closer look at his methodology for constructing his statistics in the article later when I have more time (feeling quite sleepy and not yet awake this morning, lol), but I might also send Prof. Campos a quick email to ask what the basic difference was between the two sets of figures. The article numbers, he told me, were supposed to be conserative, in order to give the law schools ever benefit of the doubt.

The methodology is listed in the article for anyone who has the time and interest to look deeper at the moment. I only posted the results. :)

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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby rayiner » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:54 am

ksllaw wrote:rayiner, one follow-up question I had for you was regarding government/public interest law. You mentioned that these positions were harder to obtain than even big law jobs in the past, but I'm curious about specific two types of "government law":

a.) military - such as JAG

b.) criminal public defense - locally as a public defender

Would you happen to know if even these types of positions are difficult to get in government law nowadays?

Both sounded "less prestigious" (apologies for even having to use that phrase for lack of an immediate better term) than the other types of government law that I had heard mentioned before (e.g. federal clerkships, regulations - such as FDIC, SEC...and the like). Is there a hierarchy that you know of for government law jobs? And if so, would these two types generally be easier to obtain (than big law) nowadays?

[note: I realized I may have just conflated gov't law with public interest law above and if so I apologize...the two terms seem to run together in my mind a little bit...and it's EARLY in the morning!


Broadly speaking, paying, LRAP-eligible government work is harder to obtain than big law (at a T14). Public defender positions are merely difficult to obtain, while federal government jobs are nearly impossible. E.g. I don't know a single person in my class who got a DOJ gig, while I know a couple who wanted and obtained public defender jobs.

Note that "difficulty" for PI jobs isn't just about grades. That's partially what makes them so difficult to get. Public interest jobs aren't automatically wow-ed by a great GPA or someone's coming from a T14. You have to sell an intense interest in the specific job.

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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:09 am

rayiner wrote:
ksllaw wrote:rayiner, one follow-up question I had for you was regarding government/public interest law. You mentioned that these positions were harder to obtain than even big law jobs in the past, but I'm curious about specific two types of "government law":

a.) military - such as JAG

b.) criminal public defense - locally as a public defender

Would you happen to know if even these types of positions are difficult to get in government law nowadays?

Both sounded "less prestigious" (apologies for even having to use that phrase for lack of an immediate better term) than the other types of government law that I had heard mentioned before (e.g. federal clerkships, regulations - such as FDIC, SEC...and the like). Is there a hierarchy that you know of for government law jobs? And if so, would these two types generally be easier to obtain (than big law) nowadays?

[note: I realized I may have just conflated gov't law with public interest law above and if so I apologize...the two terms seem to run together in my mind a little bit...and it's EARLY in the morning!


Broadly speaking, paying, LRAP-eligible government work is harder to obtain than big law (at a T14). Public defender positions are merely difficult to obtain, while federal government jobs are nearly impossible. E.g. I don't know a single person in my class who got a DOJ gig, while I know a couple who wanted and obtained public defender jobs.

Note that "difficulty" for PI jobs isn't just about grades. That's partially what makes them so difficult to get. Public interest jobs aren't automatically wow-ed by a great GPA or someone's coming from a T14. You have to sell an intense interest in the specific job.


I can back rayiner up as it pertains to JAG. I know many people who applied to JAG from T-14 who didn't get it but if you look at the Corps there are people from all levels of schools. JAG looks for people who will be good officers as well as good lawyers. Even though the JAG officers aren't commanders per se, they are still officers who have a responsibility to serve as an example to both the enlisted and other officers. There is a great thread on military law on TLS as well as the VET thread that can be helpful if you have other questions.

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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby ksllaw » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:30 pm

nickb285 wrote:
w2e wrote:Probably not worth going unless you get into a very prestigious school:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... s_suggests

http://www.americanlawyer.com/PubArticl ... 0715122018


Not entirely disagreeing with your conclusion (though I'd add "...or can attend for relatively little money/debt" to your first sentence), but the first article you link relies on the notion that someone with a bachelor's degree and three years' work experience is making $40-60k in this economy for its calculation of opportunity cost. Having been out of school for nearly three years with my BA, I can count on one hand the number of people I graduated with who are making any sort of salary, or in any hourly job that pays more than about $15/hour. Law school is still a bad idea for many people who wind up going, and no guarantee of job prospects should be assumed, but the idea that the majority of people with bachelor's degrees and a few years of WE are making middle-class, house-in-the-suburbs kind of money is pretty laughable.



Maybe we should do a comparison of:

BA holders' salaries vs. JD holder salaries (adjusting for whatever necessary)

That would be interesting. What does the average social sciences/humanities BA degree holder make nowadays (as those are often the typical degrees that many law school students have)?


rayiner wrote:Most of your statements are hyperbole. Below median grades at a T14 do not disqualify you from big law, much less a job. Few people leave after only one year. There are lots of jobs post-big law besides partner at a V10. Partnership odds are much better than many assume. At some firms, especially those in secondary markets, a substantial minority of associates will make partner.


Hey, rayiner:

I do wonder what the numbers look like for post-big law associates?

My impressions were:

a.) Few people last more than 2.5 years at a big law job - it's just very competitive.

b.) The market for post-big law grads is still very tough (e.g. the NYU grad Campos mentioned with no job prospects after 2 years of big law).

***In trying to lateral to a government law job, you'd be facing 1,000+ applications for a single postion - from people with wonderful T14 credentials and big law credentials.

***In trying to lateral to a mid-sized law firm (for a likely lower salary), which may be struggling to stay afloat just as much as big law firms in our current economy, the competition is now different. You're no longer up against your own law school class (as a new/entry-level hire), but now are going against people who may have 7-10 years of experience against your 1 or 2 years of work....it's no longer who is the best out of your law school class, but who is the best out of ALL the big law wipe-outs (and possibly others).

***In trying to move to in-house counsel, if the big law assignments your superiors gave you were in an isolated area non-helpful to that corporation, then you stand to be less marketable than someone else with skills more pertinent/relevant to that corporation's needs. But this might still seem the strongest option for a post-big law "wipe-out."

I would actually be very curious to see where post-big law associates land (statistically) and what the market is like for them. These are the impressions and stories I get from talking to people who've worked in diverse backgrounds in law (from many years to just being out of law school recently).


unc0mm0n1 wrote:I can back rayiner up as it pertains to JAG. I know many people who applied to JAG from T-14 who didn't get it but if you look at the Corps there are people from all levels of schools. JAG looks for people who will be good officers as well as good lawyers. Even though the JAG officers aren't commanders per se, they are still officers who have a responsibility to serve as an example to both the enlisted and other officers. There is a great thread on military law on TLS as well as the VET thread that can be helpful if you have other questions.


Thank you very much, unc0mm0n1! I'll take a look at the other thread. :P

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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby rayiner » Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:13 pm

ksllaw wrote:
nickb285 wrote:
w2e wrote:Probably not worth going unless you get into a very prestigious school:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... s_suggests

http://www.americanlawyer.com/PubArticl ... 0715122018


Not entirely disagreeing with your conclusion (though I'd add "...or can attend for relatively little money/debt" to your first sentence), but the first article you link relies on the notion that someone with a bachelor's degree and three years' work experience is making $40-60k in this economy for its calculation of opportunity cost. Having been out of school for nearly three years with my BA, I can count on one hand the number of people I graduated with who are making any sort of salary, or in any hourly job that pays more than about $15/hour. Law school is still a bad idea for many people who wind up going, and no guarantee of job prospects should be assumed, but the idea that the majority of people with bachelor's degrees and a few years of WE are making middle-class, house-in-the-suburbs kind of money is pretty laughable.



Maybe we should do a comparison of:

BA holders' salaries vs. JD holder salaries (adjusting for whatever necessary)

That would be interesting. What does the average social sciences/humanities BA degree holder make nowadays (as those are often the typical degrees that many law school students have)?


rayiner wrote:Most of your statements are hyperbole. Below median grades at a T14 do not disqualify you from big law, much less a job. Few people leave after only one year. There are lots of jobs post-big law besides partner at a V10. Partnership odds are much better than many assume. At some firms, especially those in secondary markets, a substantial minority of associates will make partner.


Hey, rayiner:

I do wonder what the numbers look like for post-big law associates?

My impressions were:

a.) Few people last more than 2.5 years at a big law job - it's just very competitive.

b.) The market for post-big law grads is still very tough (e.g. the NYU grad Campos mentioned with no job prospects after 2 years of big law).

***In trying to lateral to a government law job, you'd be facing 1,000+ applications for a single postion - from people with wonderful T14 credentials and big law credentials.

***In trying to lateral to a mid-sized law firm (for a likely lower salary), which may be struggling to stay afloat just as much as big law firms in our current economy, the competition is now different. You're no longer up against your own law school class (as a new/entry-level hire), but now are going against people who may have 7-10 years of experience against your 1 or 2 years of work....it's no longer who is the best out of your law school class, but who is the best out of ALL the big law wipe-outs (and possibly others).

***In trying to move to in-house counsel, if the big law assignments your superiors gave you were in an isolated area non-helpful to that corporation, then you stand to be less marketable than someone else with skills more pertinent/relevant to that corporation's needs. But this might still seem the strongest option for a post-big law "wipe-out."

I would actually be very curious to see where post-big law associates land (statistically) and what the market is like for them. These are the impressions and stories I get from talking to people who've worked in diverse backgrounds in law (from many years to just being out of law school recently).


unc0mm0n1 wrote:I can back rayiner up as it pertains to JAG. I know many people who applied to JAG from T-14 who didn't get it but if you look at the Corps there are people from all levels of schools. JAG looks for people who will be good officers as well as good lawyers. Even though the JAG officers aren't commanders per se, they are still officers who have a responsibility to serve as an example to both the enlisted and other officers. There is a great thread on military law on TLS as well as the VET thread that can be helpful if you have other questions.


Thank you very much, unc0mm0n1! I'll take a look at the other thread. :P


I don't know what the situation is post big law. I'm a stub year.

The 2-3 year figure was at the height of the boom when attrition was very high. I'd bet it's much longer now because firms have cut down hiring so much and people aren't leaving. My impression is that you don't get "pushed out" at 2-3 years just for kicks. You might get Lathamed, but that's somewhat different.

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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby timbs4339 » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:49 pm

ksllaw wrote:rayiner, one follow-up question I had for you was regarding government/public interest law. You mentioned that these positions were harder to obtain than even big law jobs in the past, but I'm curious about specific two types of "government law":

a.) military - such as JAG

b.) criminal public defense - locally as a public defender

Would you happen to know if even these types of positions are difficult to get in government law nowadays?

Both sounded "less prestigious" (apologies for even having to use that phrase for lack of an immediate better term) than the other types of government law that I had heard mentioned before (e.g. federal clerkships, regulations - such as FDIC, SEC...and the like). Is there a hierarchy that you know of for government law jobs? And if so, would these two types generally be easier to obtain (than big law) nowadays?

[note: I realized I may have just conflated gov't law with public interest law above and if so I apologize...the two terms seem to run together in my mind a little bit...and it's EARLY in the morning! :? )

rayiner wrote:This looks about right. Note these are quite a bit lower than the numbers you originally gave: "over 50% of Michigan grads...30% of Columbia grads...33% of Duke grads...etc." These are along the lines of the analysis I did a few months ago (viewtopic.php?f=23&t=181723) so I obviously think the methodology is reasonable. These also seem consistent with what I've observed "on the ground" with C/O 2012 at NU.


Right, but those initial numbers were from Campos himself! :mrgreen: From the lecture video. So, he seems to have given two sets of numbers.

I'll take a closer look at his methodology for constructing his statistics in the article later when I have more time (feeling quite sleepy and not yet awake this morning, lol), but I might also send Pro
f. Campos a quick email to ask what the basic fference was between the two sets of figures. The article numbers, he told me, were supposed to be conative, in order to give the law schools ever benefit of the doubt.

The methodology is listed in the article for anyone who has the time and interest to look deeper at the moment. I only posted the results. :)


I know two people who applied to JAG from my T6. Both struck out. One was a veteran. Its an extremely competitive position.

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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby ksllaw » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:30 am

This was a recent news release from Cooley Law School (Aug. 2012):

http://www.cooley.edu/news/2012/study_s ... ected.html
Study Suggests Recent Law School Graduate Employment Better Than Expected

Here's an excert:

Finally, the report explains why the employment data used by NALP to establish employment and unemployment rates among recent graduates is both accurate and reliable.

The school decided to release the study in a series of separate reports in order to insert the nation's most authoritative data into the public dialogue about the national legal employment picture. Report One, which covers the national employment data compiled by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, established that employment for lawyers grew during the past decade, even during the recession, and that the environment in the legal profession that awaits law school graduates reflects relatively full employment, particularly in comparison to other professional and management occupations. Report Two puts into perspective public discussion about the employment outlook for recent law school graduates by showing the data in a 10-year context.

'Reports One and Two contradict the assertions that are widespread on blogs and in a segment of the media regarding the employment situation for lawyers, refuting the notion that unemployment among current lawyers and law school graduates is high," said Cooley President and Dean Don LeDuc. "Looking at the data in this context highlights the invalid assumptions and faulty logic in the arguments used by the critics and shows that their conclusions are inaccurate and misleading. Rather, the facts overwhelmingly discredit these assertions," he said. "Legal education is actually one of the best choices for a career."


Any opinions on the report's numbers or the suggestion that legal education is actually one of the best choices for a career?

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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby Gorki » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:39 am

ksllaw wrote:Any opinions on the report's numbers or the suggestion that legal education is actually one of the best choices for a career?



Cooley's record speaks for itself.

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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:09 am

ksllaw wrote:This was a recent news release from Cooley Law School (Aug. 2012):

http://www.cooley.edu/news/2012/study_s ... ected.html
Study Suggests Recent Law School Graduate Employment Better Than Expected

Here's an excert:

Finally, the report explains why the employment data used by NALP to establish employment and unemployment rates among recent graduates is both accurate and reliable.

The school decided to release the study in a series of separate reports in order to insert the nation's most authoritative data into the public dialogue about the national legal employment picture. Report One, which covers the national employment data compiled by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, established that employment for lawyers grew during the past decade, even during the recession, and that the environment in the legal profession that awaits law school graduates reflects relatively full employment, particularly in comparison to other professional and management occupations. Report Two puts into perspective public discussion about the employment outlook for recent law school graduates by showing the data in a 10-year context.

'Reports One and Two contradict the assertions that are widespread on blogs and in a segment of the media regarding the employment situation for lawyers, refuting the notion that unemployment among current lawyers and law school graduates is high," said Cooley President and Dean Don LeDuc. "Looking at the data in this context highlights the invalid assumptions and faulty logic in the arguments used by the critics and shows that their conclusions are inaccurate and misleading. Rather, the facts overwhelmingly discredit these assertions," he said. "Legal education is actually one of the best choices for a career."


Any opinions on the report's numbers or the suggestion that legal education is actually one of the best choices for a career?



Any study using the BLS numbers is going to be seriously flawed because those numbers don't take into account people who have left the profession and count solos and partners at small firms employed. An analogy might be something like hairdressing or being a chef. People who are employed at those jobs are counted in the stats, while people who couldn't find work move on to other jobs.

The more relevant statistic for you is, as always, the ratio of full time legal entry-level jobs to the numbers of JDs produced which by even the most optimistic estimates is less than 60%.

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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby utlaw2007 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:31 pm

a.) military - such as JAG

b.) criminal public defense - locally as a public defender

Would you happen to know if even these types of positions are difficult to get in government law nowadays?


Public defender jobs are not difficult to obtain depending on the market to which you are applying. Generally, the larger markets are much easier, but there may be some other factors that have a bearing on that. Many counties don't have public defender offices. But I am assuming that by public defender, you also mean assistant district attorney/prosecutor.

This is one important point, many counties have lawyers who volunteer (this is paid) to be public defenders. They get on a "wheel" and become part of a rotation. If the area is large, you just won't get enough work this way. You actually get more work if you volunteer with a small county. But if there is an official public defender's office, your chances of getting hired by that office are quite larger than if the office is in a small county. The same is true for DA offices.

As for JAG positions, I have no idea. I just know three guys who were classmates of mine all get JAG positions with the military. They were all veterans, however.
Last edited by utlaw2007 on Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:43 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby utlaw2007 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:32 pm

.

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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby ksllaw » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:24 am

http://www.nalp.org/2012_associate_salaries

" Median First-Year Big-Law Associate Salary Slumps to $145,000 in 2012, a Median Last Seen in 2007
(September 20, 2012)

Recent research from NALP reveals that, although first-year associate salaries of $160,000 are still widespread at large law firms of more than 700 lawyers — especially in large markets — that figure no longer represents the prevailing salary, resulting in a median for this group of firms as a whole of $145,000, a median figure last seen in 2007. In the intervening years at least half the first-year salaries in firms of this size were reported at $160,000, with the proportion reaching a high of nearly two-thirds in 2009, confirming the characterization of 2009 as the recent high point for large firm salaries.

$160,000 Still the Norm at Largest Firms, Though Prevalence Erodes.

To be sure, in many markets, including Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, and Washington, DC, first-year salaries of $160,000 are still the norm at the largest firms, though they are not as widespread as they were just a few years ago. For example, in 2009, about 90% of offices in firms of more than 700 lawyers in Los Angeles and Washington, DC reported a first-year salary of $160,000; in 2012 only about two-thirds did so. Overall in firms of more than 700 lawyers salaries of $160,000 accounted for 46% of reported first-year salaries, compared with 54% in 2011, 58% in 2010, and 65% in 2009. ..."



Thought this was something folks might be interested in. 8)

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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby Rocío » Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:03 pm

utlaw2007 wrote:
Public defender jobs are not difficult to obtain depending on the market to which you are applying. Generally, the larger markets are much easier, but there may be some other factors that have a bearing on that. Many counties don't have public defender offices. But I am assuming that by public defender, you also mean assistant district attorney/prosecutor.


I don't know what you mean by larger markets, but if you mean large metropolitan areas, this isn't necessarily true. Larger offices may of course hire a greater number of attorneys, but their acceptance rate might be much more competitive than rural areas. For instance, CPCS, the Massachusetts public defender, received over 1,500 applications from 2012 grads (and earlier grads) for its August 2012 class, which consisted of about 40 spots. Legal Aid Society in New York City receives about 3,000 applications for approximately 35-45 spots a year.

utlaw2007 wrote:This is one important point, many counties have lawyers who volunteer (this is paid) to be public defenders. They get on a "wheel" and become part of a rotation. If the area is large, you just won't get enough work this way. You actually get more work if you volunteer with a small county. But if there is an official public defender's office, your chances of getting hired by that office are quite larger than if the office is in a small county. The same is true for DA offices.


I think by volunteer paid attorneys you mean court-appointed attorneys, who are often in private practice but take on criminal cases "on the side" through the court appointment process. In some states, court-appointed attorneys get the overflow cases from the Public Defender, usually in situations where the Public Defender has a conflict. In other states, like in MA, court-appointed attorneys take on a huge percentage of the cases. In MA, these court-appointed attorneys are called "bar advocates," and some of the bar advocate groups will handle all of the criminal cases in a given court house. In MA at least, some of the bar advocates take on a lot of cases, and regularly out earn staff public defenders just off of the court pay for the appointed cases. This is changing in MA though, as Governor Patrick is increasing the percentage of cases that CPCS takes.

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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby ksllaw » Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:12 pm

Rocío wrote:
utlaw2007 wrote:Public defender jobs are not difficult to obtain depending on the market to which you are applying. Generally, the larger markets are much easier, but there may be some other factors that have a bearing on that. Many counties don't have public defender offices. But I am assuming that by public defender, you also mean assistant district attorney/prosecutor.


I don't know what you mean by larger markets, but if you mean large metropolitan areas, this isn't necessarily true. Larger offices may of course hire a greater number of attorneys, but their acceptance rate might be much more competitive than rural areas. For instance, CPCS, the Massachusetts public defender, received over 1,500 applications from 2012 grads (and earlier grads) for its August 2012 class, which consisted of about 40 spots. Legal Aid Society in New York City receives about 3,000 applications for approximately 35-45 spots a year.



That's actually not bad compared to some government (big gov. that is) lawyer positions I've heard of, where the ratio is 1,500: 1 (applicants to a single position).

I'm not saying it's easy, of course, to get a public defender position, but a 38:1 (1500/40) ratio is signifcantly better than 1500:1.

I remember hearing of a Chili's restaurant opening up in a neighborhood my friend lives in and she said there were already about 300 applications in for waitress/waiter positions.

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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby manofjustice » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:44 pm

Gorki wrote:
ksllaw wrote:Any opinions on the report's numbers or the suggestion that legal education is actually one of the best choices for a career?



Cooley's record speaks for itself.


This. Cooley is evil.

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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby sunynp » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:16 pm

Jesus Christ, are you writing a book or a magazine article or are you just trying to see what you can get people to say? You've been posting here long enough to know what Cooley is all about. I'm pissed off that you even quoted that garbage. I no longer believe that you were ever a genuine poster. I don't know what your intention is, but no one who has been supposedly researching the job market would ask these stupid questions.

Use your common sense once in a while. Don't make us do all your work for you.

Just in case you can't figure this out:

Cooley will do anything to keep the tuition dollars rolling in. It is among the worst of the law school rip off scams. They even did a ranking where they were the number 2 law school in the country right after Yale. They are desperate to shore up their rapidly dwindling enrollment so they will do anything.

If I recall correctly the fraud lawsuit was dismissed against them because the judge said their numbers were so obviously false that no one should believe them (or something to that effect.) So they won dismissal but only because they were such egregious lying liars who lie.

So, yes, waste everyone's time by posting ridiculous stuff like that and asking for opinions. And don't say that people can just ignore it, because there are visitors to this site who may actually believe in or rely on this nonsense.

This is from an article about the dismissal of the law suit:

In a 20-page opinion granting Cooley’s motion to dismiss, Quist wrote that the MCPA applies to “providing goods, property, or service primarily for personal, family or household purposes.”
Because of that, “the MCPA did not apply because the plaintiff purchased the services for a business or commercial purpose,” he wrote.
He also acknowledged that Cooley’s employment reports are “meaningless” and “inconsistent, confusing, and inherently untrustworthy.”
For example, the statistic showing that 76 percent of graduates are employed is not “objectively false,” he said. But it does not differentiate between part-time, full-time, legal or non-legal jobs.

Despite that, “it would be unreasonable for Plaintiffs to rely on two-bare bones statistics in deciding to attend a bottom-tier law school with the lowest admission standard in the country,” he wrote, adding that the students did not at any point attempt to seek information to clarify questions related to the employment report.


I added the red so you didn't miss the part where a federal judge called Cooley's published statistics inherently untrustworthy.

This information is easy to find with google. If you had bothered to do any research into Cooley, you would have known that what they say is "inherently untrustworthy."

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IrwinM.Fletcher
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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby IrwinM.Fletcher » Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:33 pm

sunynp wrote:Jesus Christ, are you writing a book or a magazine article or are you just trying to see what you can get people to say?

...


Use your common sense once in a while. Don't make us do all your work for you.

...




While everything in your poast is correct, you prolly should have just stopped here.

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sunynp
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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby sunynp » Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:39 pm

IrwinM.Fletcher wrote:
sunynp wrote:Jesus Christ, are you writing a book or a magazine article or are you just trying to see what you can get people to say?

...


Use your common sense once in a while. Don't make us do all your work for you.

...




While everything in your poast is correct, you prolly should have just stopped here.

Agreed. That was my original end point. But then I wondered if other people read that article and they might not bother to research Cooley. Plus I was irritated.

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PDaddy
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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby PDaddy » Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:39 pm

rayiner wrote:Went to a T14. Most friends have a high paying or otherwise desirable job lined up. A sizable minority have nothing at all. Doesn't seem to be a lot of middle ground.



...sizable minority...? :?

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hume85
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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby hume85 » Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:46 pm

TBH, I trust Rayiner's analysis over Campos' any day of the week. Campos comes to this site to get information on the state of the legal market from people like Rayiner. And as Rayiner noted, Campos is conservative because he lacks information.

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rayiner
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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby rayiner » Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:08 pm

PDaddy wrote:
rayiner wrote:Went to a T14. Most friends have a high paying or otherwise desirable job lined up. A sizable minority have nothing at all. Doesn't seem to be a lot of middle ground.



...sizable minority...? :?


I'd say 10% have nothing at all. Mostly people who gunned PI. Another 10-15% are doing things like state clerkships or small firms. More than a small minority--a sizeable minority.

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sunynp
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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby sunynp » Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:14 pm

rayiner wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
rayiner wrote:Went to a T14. Most friends have a high paying or otherwise desirable job lined up. A sizable minority have nothing at all. Doesn't seem to be a lot of middle ground.



...sizable minority...? :?


I'd say 10% have nothing at all. Mostly people who gunned PI. Another 10-15% are doing things like state clerkships or small firms. More than a small minority--a sizeable minority.


So 20 to 25% from your class? That seems about the same as the NU numbers in the thread you made for 2011. Would you say that for NU at least that chart is good for 2012 grads?

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rayiner
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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby rayiner » Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:29 pm

sunynp wrote:
rayiner wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
rayiner wrote:Went to a T14. Most friends have a high paying or otherwise desirable job lined up. A sizable minority have nothing at all. Doesn't seem to be a lot of middle ground.



...sizable minority...? :?


I'd say 10% have nothing at all. Mostly people who gunned PI. Another 10-15% are doing things like state clerkships or small firms. More than a small minority--a sizeable minority.


So 20 to 25% from your class? That seems about the same as the NU numbers in the thread you made for 2011. Would you say that for NU at least that chart is good for 2012 grads?


Roughly.

kryptix
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Re: Newly minited lawyers how is the job outlook and salaries?

Postby kryptix » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:07 am

I have noticed though its not quite as clear cut as T14 or bust, a lot of T30 schools do well in their home markets, the USC/UCLAs and the Fordhams of the world end up placing decently in big law in LA/NY. The difference is that the class more closely resembles the bimodal distribution of law graduate salaries. 20-30% get 160k, 30% getting 40-60k and 10% in between, 10-20% with nothing. Look at it like graduating from undergrad, no one guaranteed you a job, work on your interviewing and don't expect to be handed a well paying job. Go somewhere you can afford or go top tier, being stuck in the middle is what kills you :)




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