Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

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sunynp
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Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby sunynp » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:17 am

IAFG wrote:This thread feels really off.

And I also distrust anyone who wants anecdotes over statistics.

Agree. OP has several of these threads looking for personal opinion and stories on several different related subjects. I thought she sounded like a journalist or maybe someone who is writing a paper. Why would any 0L be asking about friends in food stamps? That was just rude. Maybe a clueless high school kid or college kid?

JamesChapman23
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Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby JamesChapman23 » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:10 pm

Brian Leiter is a scumbag of the highest order. When he disagrees with somebody, he attempts to out them publically (like he did to Paul) and then engage in character assassination. Many of his half-assed critiques of Paul dealt with Paul's lack of prestige or articles written- like these "scholarly" articles mean jack shit in the real world. They are government subsidized garbage.

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Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby ksllaw » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:34 am

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 92182.html
New Lawyers, Seeking Jobs, Are Advised to Think Small.

Here was an interesting WSJ article suggesting opportunities for practicing law in rural areas.

What do people think?

I've heard it said before that there isn't an oversupply of lawyers in the U.S., but rather a mal-distribution of them - too many are clustered in big city areas and not enough servicing rural places.

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Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby thomas7669 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:57 pm

There is actually an unmet demand for lawyers. The problem is that nobody is able to or willing to pay for their services. Right now the rich can afford the best firms and the poor can resort to legal aid. There is a vast amount of people in the middle who dont qualify for legal aid but cant afford a lawyer at 200 dollars an hour.

I dont know how that can be fixed, but it isnt by doing what law schools are doing now.

ksllaw
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Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby ksllaw » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:10 pm

It's a great discussion to have.

Here is an excellent article on the need for legal services for the underserved middle class (by ABA Journal):
http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... _law_grads
Underserved Middle Class Provides Opportunity for Recent Law Grads, Ex-US Attorney Says (August 22, 2012)

"A practice representing the underserved middle class could result in a fairly decent income for new law grads, according to an opinion column by a former U.S. attorney.

The National Law Journal article by former prosecutor and Miami lawyer Kendall Coffey explains the economics. “The reality is that with prudent office economics, recent law graduates could earn decent compensation and launch successful practices, with the opportunity to continue to earn more,” Coffey writes. “Rather than work for a law firm at high rates, of which two thirds goes to the employer, new lawyers could charge much lower rates and keep the earnings for themselves. Rates of between $50 and $125 per hour would make new lawyers affordable to the middle class while providing the lawyers with enough income to succeed.”"

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sunynp
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Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby sunynp » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:32 am

See what Campos and the commenters have to say about that idiotic article you quoted above.

sadsituationJD
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Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby sadsituationJD » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:28 am

It's a great discussion to have.

Here is an excellent article on the need for legal services for the underserved middle class (by ABA Journal):
--LinkRemoved-- ... _law_grads
Underserved Middle Class Provides Opportunity for Recent Law Grads, Ex-US Attorney Says (August 22, 2012)



The ABA article is utter hogwash, as this practicing solo lawyer in NYC points out nicely:

--LinkRemoved--


and

--LinkRemoved--


Anyone who thinks that "going solo" or "hanging a shingle" is some kind of viable alternative to striking out at OCI/Biglaw needs to read the above articles very carefully. As a practicing attorney, I can back up this quote 100%:

I've spoken with many lawyers, many readers. You know who you are. You know that I know the truth. The business of criminal defense is dying. It's awful. It sucks. And you're hanging on by a thread, if at all. Yet, most put on their game face, talking themselves up as if they are somehow beating the odds, knocking down the world, making a killing. Nobody wants to tell their brethren that they're in the same boat, struggling daily to cover the nut and praying that the next phone call isn't another nutjob or desperate defendant without a dime to his name.

It's not that there is a shortage of criminal defendants, though crime is significantly down and serious crime even more so. There is a shortage of criminal defendants who can afford to pay for a lawyer. Sure, there are some lawyers who are doing well, but you can count them on your fingers and toes, without resort to dropping trou. And there are a great many criminal defense lawyers, exceptionally good ones, who fight over crumbs these days, because that's all they can do to survive.


If you miss Biglaw via OCI, please, dear God, have the good sense to drop out and cut your losses.

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SuperCerealBrah
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Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby SuperCerealBrah » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:37 pm

sadsituationJD wrote:
It's a great discussion to have.

Here is an excellent article on the need for legal services for the underserved middle class (by ABA Journal):
--LinkRemoved-- ... _law_grads
Underserved Middle Class Provides Opportunity for Recent Law Grads, Ex-US Attorney Says (August 22, 2012)



The ABA article is utter hogwash, as this practicing solo lawyer in NYC points out nicely:

--LinkRemoved--


and

--LinkRemoved--


Anyone who thinks that "going solo" or "hanging a shingle" is some kind of viable alternative to striking out at OCI/Biglaw needs to read the above articles very carefully. As a practicing attorney, I can back up this quote 100%:

I've spoken with many lawyers, many readers. You know who you are. You know that I know the truth. The business of criminal defense is dying. It's awful. It sucks. And you're hanging on by a thread, if at all. Yet, most put on their game face, talking themselves up as if they are somehow beating the odds, knocking down the world, making a killing. Nobody wants to tell their brethren that they're in the same boat, struggling daily to cover the nut and praying that the next phone call isn't another nutjob or desperate defendant without a dime to his name.

It's not that there is a shortage of criminal defendants, though crime is significantly down and serious crime even more so. There is a shortage of criminal defendants who can afford to pay for a lawyer. Sure, there are some lawyers who are doing well, but you can count them on your fingers and toes, without resort to dropping trou. And there are a great many criminal defense lawyers, exceptionally good ones, who fight over crumbs these days, because that's all they can do to survive.


If you miss Biglaw via OCI, please, dear God, have the good sense to drop out and cut your losses.


I agree with all these issues the legal profession is enduring. However, the incessant bitching is getting unbelievably old. I agree with everything this guys says...


"I always chuckle when people, including myself (yes, I have enough personal insight to laugh at myself), bitch about things they have little or no control over. Either shut-up or do something (anything, of course, but continued bitching)".

sadsituationJD
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Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby sadsituationJD » Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:29 pm

Here's another thread re: the struggles that anyone going solo is going to face:

http://jdunderground.com/all/thread.php?threadId=32797

Don't believe its this hard? Consider that 50% of Americans in 2011 couldn't come up with $2000 for an unexpected expense without pawning something or taking a "loan shark" type loan:

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/business ... 000/38058/

Funny how threads like this get so little attention, while "OMG Logic Games are soooo hard" get like 900 responses in 20 minutes lol. When one consults a dictionary re: the term "cognitive dissonance," this website should be the #1 hit on google.

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Scotusnerd
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Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby Scotusnerd » Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:53 pm

Y'all are some gloomy motherf*ckas. :shock:

ksllaw
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Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby ksllaw » Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:17 pm

sadsituationJD wrote:Here's another thread re: the struggles that anyone going solo is going to face:

http://jdunderground.com/all/thread.php?threadId=32797

Don't believe its this hard? Consider that 50% of Americans in 2011 couldn't come up with $2000 for an unexpected expense without pawning something or taking a "loan shark" type loan:

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/business ... 000/38058/

Funny how threads like this get so little attention, while "OMG Logic Games are soooo hard" get like 900 responses in 20 minutes lol. When one consults a dictionary re: the term "cognitive dissonance," this website should be the #1 hit on google.



I tend to agree with this portrait of America, given other sources I've read too. The middle-class has definitely shrunk and has been hurting for the past couple of decades or so, and it has less disposable income than ever (one can hear Elizabeth Warren - Prof. Harvard Law School - speak on the coming collapse of the middle-class here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A ).

So, the calling into question of Coffey's recommendation to practice "middle-class law" seems a valid critique from what I can tell. It's too bad, because that would seem to be a nice market niche.

Still, I wonder, though, if there are not some areas that are conducive to middle-class law practice? I noticed that the critique quoted by Campos came from someone working in NY, where the cost of living would be presumably higher than most places.

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Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby spleenworship » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:19 pm

thomas7669 wrote:There is actually an unmet demand for lawyers. The problem is that nobody is able to or willing to pay for their services. Right now the rich can afford the best firms and the poor can resort to legal aid. There is a vast amount of people in the middle who dont qualify for legal aid but cant afford a lawyer at 200 dollars an hour.

I dont know how that can be fixed, but it isnt by doing what law schools are doing now.


I figured out a way to charge only $150 an hour, but it requires a large amount of initial capital, making it unfeasable for most.

lukertin
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Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby lukertin » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:29 pm

spleenworship wrote:I figured out a way to charge only $150 an hour, but it requires a large amount of initial capital, making it unfeasable for most.

I will charge $150/hr as a moonlighter to my real job.

utlaw2007
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Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby utlaw2007 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:51 pm

I think one big mistake that all of you are making is that you are not accounting for regional differences in the markets. You're not accounting for the number of lawyers in a given area of the country versus the number of people in a given area. You're also not factoring the strength or weakness of local economies. I have my own law firm. And I seem to be doing just fine. And I'm not the only lawyer in Texas doing so. What's the difference you ask? I'm sure it has something to do with me being in Texas versus New York. I understand that New York is a very popular place to live and is a very potent media center. But to assume that the New York economy is mirrored everywhere else in the country is erroneous.
Last edited by utlaw2007 on Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.

utlaw2007
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Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby utlaw2007 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:56 pm

You are also not accounting for differences in practice areas. Oil & Gas is not the same as criminal law, for example.

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Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby spleenworship » Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:02 am

utlaw2007 wrote:I think one big mistake that all of you are making is that you are not accounting for regional differences in the markets. You're not accounting for the number of lawyers in a given area of the country versus the number of people in a given area. You're also not factoring the strength or weakness of local economies. I have my own law firm. And I seem to be doing just fine. And I'm not the only lawyer in Texas doing so. What's the difference you ask? I'm sure it has something to do with me being in Texas versus New York. I understand that New York is a very popular place to live and is a very potent media center. But to assume that the New York economy is mirrored everywhere else in the country is erroneous.


While I agree that peeps on the coasts tend to ignore the wonders of "flyover country", the truth is that even for those of us living or planning to practice there are often geographically limited. My wife's job, f'rinstance, I in the largest metro in the state. While I wouldn't mind moving to BFE and being a door lawyer in a small town, unless I get a divorce, that just isn't going to happen.

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Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby utlaw2007 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:39 am

spleenworship wrote:
utlaw2007 wrote:I think one big mistake that all of you are making is that you are not accounting for regional differences in the markets. You're not accounting for the number of lawyers in a given area of the country versus the number of people in a given area. You're also not factoring the strength or weakness of local economies. I have my own law firm. And I seem to be doing just fine. And I'm not the only lawyer in Texas doing so. What's the difference you ask? I'm sure it has something to do with me being in Texas versus New York. I understand that New York is a very popular place to live and is a very potent media center. But to assume that the New York economy is mirrored everywhere else in the country is erroneous.


While I agree that peeps on the coasts tend to ignore the wonders of "flyover country", the truth is that even for those of us living or planning to practice there are often geographically limited. My wife's job, f'rinstance, I in the largest metro in the state. While I wouldn't mind moving to BFE and being a door lawyer in a small town, unless I get a divorce, that just isn't going to happen.



I get the geographic limitation concept. And I'm not suggesting that someone move to Nebraska. But if you think that Houston, Texas, the fourth largest city in the country and home to the largest medical center in the world and the energy capitol of the country if not the world, or Dallas, the 5th or 6th largest city in the country are fly over parts of the country, than there is really nothing else to say.

So really all of the blogs and bleak picture you guys paint need to be qualified as "this is the legal employment picture for the coasts." Do not represent this as though it represents the entire country, specifically, Texas.

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Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby ksllaw » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:46 pm

UT - You might be in a very special situation.

Texas, especially, Houston, is doing fantastic economically compared to the rest of the nation from what I've read.

Houston, the 4th largest U.S. city, has both relatively low cost-of-living and a booming economy and is the fastest growing city in the U.S. I believe it was in a recent issue of The Economist that Houston was just mentioned in this regard (that I recall reading about).

But even in other parts of Texas there has been growth as a result of (I think...and have been told) Gov. Rick Perry's policies and also right-to-work laws, which have brought in corporations and jobs relocating to that area and away from heavily unionized and big business unfriendly states.

I actually think you have a case to be made for TX, but may need to recognize that it could be the exception to the rule. Most of the U.S. is doing much worse and opening up a middle-class law practice may not be feasible.

But, having said that, one strategy could be to move to places where middle-class law practice IS possible. ....The only problem....may be lack of law degree clout in those areas. Unless one is a HYS or other T14 grad, then moving elsewhere to practice (outside of their region) may be tough.
Last edited by ksllaw on Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.

anewaphorist
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Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby anewaphorist » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:57 pm

Unless one is a HYS or T14 grad


One of these is not like the other.

ksllaw
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Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby ksllaw » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:57 pm

This is an excerpt from Wikipedia on Texas and right-to-work laws if people are interested in discussion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law

"Due to other similarities between states which have passed right-to-work laws, it is difficult to analyze these laws by comparing states; for instance, right-to-work states often have a number of strong pro-business policies, making it difficult to disentangle the effect of right-to-work laws.[8] A March 3, 2008 editorial in The Wall Street Journal compared Ohio to Texas and examined why "Texas is prospering while Ohio lags". According to the editorial, during the previous decade, while Ohio lost 10,400 jobs, Texas gained 1,615,000 new jobs. The opinion piece proposed several possible reasons for the economic expansion in Texas, including the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), the absence of a state income tax, and right-to-work laws.[9]

Nobel laureate economist F.A. Hayek endorsed right-to-work laws, writing:

If legislation, jurisdiction, and the tolerance of executive agencies had not created privileges for the unions, the need for special legislation concerning them would probably not have arisen in common-law countries. But, once special privileges have become part of the law of the land, they can be removed only by special legislation. Though there ought to be no need for special 'right-to-work laws,' it is difficult to deny that the situation created in the United States by legislation and by the decisions of the Supreme Court may make special legislation the only practicable way of restoring the principles of freedom. Footnote: Such legislation, to be consistent with our principles, should not go beyond declaring certain contracts invalid, which is sufficient for removing all pretext to action to obtain them. It should not, as the title of the 'right-to-work laws' may suggest, give individuals a claim to a particular job, or even (as some of the laws in force in certain American states do) confer a right to damages for having denied a particular job, when the denial is not illegal on other grounds. The objections against such provisions are the same as those that apply to 'fair employment practices' laws.[10]

A February 2011 Economic Policy Institute study found[11] that in right-to-work states both the unemployment rate in 2009 and the cost of living were lower. According to Daniel DiSalvo, this leads to public sector unionized workers causing budgetary problems in states without right-to-work laws such as New York, Michigan, California, and Washington, due to their greater wages and benefits.[12] While the collective bargaining is conducted between the state and the labor unions, the taxpayers' role is largely ignored in the process.[13] The Bureau of Labor Statistics have published statistics that demonstrate that since 2009, in size, the public sector has surpassed the private sector with respect to unionized employees.[14]
"
Last edited by ksllaw on Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

anewaphorist
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Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby anewaphorist » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:06 pm

When did this morph into the Rick Perry/F.A. Hayek tea-bagging thread?

utlaw2007
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Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby utlaw2007 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:34 pm

ksllaw wrote:UT - You might be in a very special situation.

Texas, especially, Houston, is doing fantastic economically compared to the rest of the nation from what I've read.

Houston, the 4th largest U.S. city, has both relatively low cost-of-living and a booming economy and is the fastest growing city in the U.S. I believe it was in a recent issue of The Economist that Houston was just mentioned in this regard (that I recall reading about).

But even in other parts of Texas there has been growth as a result of (I think...and have been told) Gov. Rick Perry's policies and also right-to-work laws, which have brought in corporations and jobs relocating to that area and away from heavily unionized and big business unfriendly states.

I actually think you have a case to be made for TX, but may need to recognize that it could be the exception to the rule. Most of the U.S. is doing much worse and opening up a middle-class law practice may not be feasible.

But, having said that, one strategy could be to move to places where middle-class law practice IS possible. ....The only problem....may be lack of law degree clout in those areas. Unless one is a HYS or other T14 grad, then moving elsewhere to practice (outside of their region) may be tough.


I do agree that I'm in a special situation. I guess I'm selling Texas. My last response was mainly a rebuttal to the New York flavored responses. Texas may be an exception, but considering the size of our metropolitan areas and the strength of our economies, it wouldn't be a bad option. While a UT Law degree is the best law degree you can have in this region of the country, especially for running your own firm (mainly for marketing purposes), any law degree would suffice for running your own firm to tell you the truth. It's one thing to be hired by another firm, it's a totally different thing to run your own firm.

ksllaw
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Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby ksllaw » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:39 pm

anewaphorist wrote:When did this morph into the Rick Perry/F.A. Hayek tea-bagging thread?


I was only referring to them to discuss cost of living issues and general local economic health for people looking to try a solo/small law practice. Wasn't trying to promote Perry. :mrgreen:

By the way, this was the Houston article I referenced last time from The Economist (discussing it's availability of jobs and low cost of living in a piece on something else):
http://www.economist.com/node/21558632

But also, here is another interesting Economist piece titled, "Poor, poor New Yorkers"
http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexch ... al-incomes

"New Yorkers earn more than most Americans (have a look at our interactive graphic here). And while the price of housing rose much faster in New York City over the past decade than it did across much of the Southeast, New York incomes also rose quickly over that time period. One question that we need to answer, then, is whether incomes rose faster or slower than housing costs. As it happens, real wages have actually been falling in New York—the cost of living has grown faster than local incomes. And elsewhere, in much of Texas for instance, incomes have grown slowly, but housing costs have risen slower still, and so real wages have been rising.

So are New Yorkers actually poor relative to residents of other cities? No, not really. Urban economist Ed Glaeser explains why in his recent book "Triumph of the City". Differences in real incomes, he writes, reflect differences in local amenities. The talented, mobile residents of New York City wouldn't accept low real wages if they weren't getting something in return. And they are getting something in return: an unrivaled consumer experience. Similarly, if population growth in places like Houston is associated with rising real wages, then that implies a need to compensate migrants over and above levels elsewhere, and that, in turn, implies a relative dearth of amenities—or outright disamenities, as an economist might call a Houston summer. ..."


Just food for thought for the ongoing discussion. 8)




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