Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
ksllaw
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:17 pm

Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby ksllaw » Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:34 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/2 ... 25344.html

What's up folks? I've been seeing a good number of articles lately (this past entire year or so) about how seemingly bad the prospects are for law school grads in our current labor market and a new article from Huffington Post also highlights this concern.

I'm curious from those who are experienced law students or grads/lawyers what you guys have generally seen yourselves in terms of classmates and friends getting or not getting jobs in our current labor market? As bleak as those HP statistics?

What are some of the career path trajectories of folks that you've seen? Are most getting good offers? Or, have you seen friends, colleagues and acquaintances struggle? Somewhere in between?

And exactly just how bad has it gotten for some? Are any working, for example, in fast food to make ends meet or living back at home with their parents? Any on food stamps or other public assistance (as an increased number of Ph.D.'s are: http://abcnews.go.com/Business/growing- ... d=16310858 )? Would appreciate everyone's perspectives!

Lastly, have professors or others in the legal community that you know started recommending students not apply to law school because of the employment trends?

What has been the word you guys are hearing?
Last edited by ksllaw on Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:06 am, edited 9 times in total.

ksllaw
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:17 pm

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby ksllaw » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:11 pm

Another article I found, http://abovethelaw.com/2012/04/from-j-d ... aw-school/
From JD to Food Stamps
Last edited by ksllaw on Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
sunynp
Posts: 1899
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 2:06 pm

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby sunynp » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:20 pm

Try reading Paul campos blog about law school as a scam. Also Brian tamahana is publishing a book on law schools called "failing law schools". They are both law professors advising people not to go to law school.

Look at law school transparency for employment statistics and read rayiners unemployment thread.


If you need someone to tell you not to go to law school because the employment outcomes are terrible, I will be happy to do so.

Don't go.

ksllaw
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:17 pm

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby ksllaw » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:29 pm

sunynp wrote:Try reading Paul campos blog about law school as a scam. Also Brian tamahana is publishing a book on law schools called "failing law schools". They are both law professors advising people not to go to law school.

Look at law school transparency for employment statistics and read rayiners
unemployment thread.
If you need someone to tell you not to go to law school because the employment outcomes are terrible, I will be happy to do so.

Don't go.


Sadly, I've heard some of those things. :!:

I was hoping to just get some discussion going on the topic and get the perspective of grads who may know what the word on the street is in terms of interviewing and job/career path trajectories for new law grads. ...It seems a lot of TLS members are directly in the trenches and may know more intimately the ground-level dynamics of hiring going on.

You see a good deal of scare stories out nowadays. I'm thinking the numbers may serve as a warning about the huge choice people will be making. Here was another article:

http://www.businessinsider.com/real-sto ... 012-4?op=1 [10 Faces Behind The Incredible Law School Underemployment Crisis ]

It seems it's not just "low" ranking law school grads who are having a tough time. A University of Michigan, Ann Arbor grad in the piece has his profile in the story too. But he seemed maybe clueless to begin with:

"Harbinger had applied to law school on a whim, and ended up attending University of Michigan-Ann Arbor, one of the nation's top law schools.

"I didn’t know that there were law school rankings," he says. "Everyone is obsessed with these things. I found these after I got into Michigan. I had no idea. I figured Harvard law was top dog or something, but I thought who cares, what’s the big deal?"


Again, this may not be the best example, because this guy was potentially clueless to begin with. :?:


Another profiled grad had got on food stamps...

"Four years after graduating from law school, Erin Gilmer is on food stamps...

"I have, literally never made it above about 200 percent of the federal poverty limit. It’s just stressful, really stressful," she says. "But it gives me a new angle to when I’m helping people. I can understand exactly what they’ve been through. I know how hard it is to apply for food stamps. I know how hard it is to apply for medical assistance."


Although, in this case, a careful read of her profile also reveals some of this might be self-induced (with an aversion to "typical" legal employment)?:

"Some ask her why she has stuck with her current career path, says Gilmer, who says she just doesn't see herself working at a typical law firm job. "Working in that kind of corporate culture isn't where I want to be," she says."

...nevertheless, it's an interesting profile of some people who've made the big decision and their outcomes. I wonder how others are evaluating their chances and how people are going about their law school decisions in light of these statistics and stories coming out?
Last edited by ksllaw on Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:48 pm, edited 11 times in total.

User avatar
sunynp
Posts: 1899
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 2:06 pm

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby sunynp » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:46 pm

You should find rayiners unemployment thread if you think top schools are immune.
This forum has plenty of threads by top grads who can't find jobs or who got no offered. Im not sure what more you want. There are threads by people who decided not to go and people who have dropped out.

ksllaw
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:17 pm

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby ksllaw » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:55 pm

sunynp wrote:You should find rayiners unemployment thread if you think top schools are immune.
This forum has plenty of threads by top grads who can't find jobs or who got no offered. Im not sure what more you want. There are threads by people who decided not to go and people who have dropped out.


Having a more detailed profile of people's trajectories is always more helpful than just that bare statistics...so that's why I was hoping for more discussion. :) Seriously, many of us OL's are going to be soon making the biggest decision we may make in our adult lives. So I think it would behoove us to learn as much as we can and gain as much perspective and insight etc. as we can before attending law school!

And also thoughts on whether people would do things differently now looking back with 20/20 hindsight? For those of us still free ...debt free and free in our youth and can move around...this might be a life-altering decision.

I don't necessarily think a failed law school career and unemployment in the legal field is necessarily the be all and end all of life. It shouldn't define a person has a human you know (life goes on...). But on the practical side and one with real consequences, the common $150K or so debt does limit one's life options if a person can't find employment after graduation. There aren't a lot of jobs that can pay off that debt other than law. So, I'm definitely being extremely careful with my decision. I fear being tied down by enormous debt and not being able to marry or have mobility in life due to law school and the 50/50 job prospects for new grads (who could also be let go even after getting a job in law).

Just having these sorts of discussions help, no? I'll take a look at the thread you recommended ...rayiner's unemployment thread? I'm still early in my law school research and decision process, so hoping to gain more knowledge and perspective you know? There's a lot I still don't know yet, but am getting informed about.

I personally had thought of either applying this year or next...I haven't decided for sure yet. Still doing my due diligence to try to make the best decision possible!
Last edited by ksllaw on Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ksllaw
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:17 pm

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby ksllaw » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:58 pm

sunynp wrote:You should find rayiners unemployment thread if you think top schools are immune.
This forum has plenty of threads by top grads who can't find jobs or who got no offered. Im not sure what more you want. There are threads by people who decided not to go and people who have dropped out.


Was that a TLS thread by the way? I couldn't find what you were referring to suny.
Last edited by ksllaw on Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
sunynp
Posts: 1899
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 2:06 pm

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby sunynp » Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:02 pm


User avatar
Kikero
Posts: 1208
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:28 am

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby Kikero » Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:03 pm

^ (Scooped)

ksllaw wrote:
sunynp wrote:You should find rayiners unemployment thread if you think top schools are immune.
This forum has plenty of threads by top grads who can't find jobs or who got no offered. Im not sure what more you want. There are threads by people who decided not to go and people who have dropped out.


Was that a TLS thread? I couldn't find what you were referring to, sunynp.

ksllaw
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:17 pm

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby ksllaw » Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:12 pm

sunynp wrote:http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=181723


Interesting...thanks!
Last edited by ksllaw on Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
2014
Posts: 5834
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:53 pm

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby 2014 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:33 pm

Keep in mind the C/O 2011 did their job interviews in August 2009, aka the first hiring cycle after shit hit the fan in Fall 2008 so for as bad as the picture is now, that one is worse. Not to mention schools that feed into markets other than NYC were hit even harder than average.

While the market is noticeably better now for top schools, it is still brutal especially in the face of rising tuition and the loss of subsidized loans, and Ray's thread makes it clear that there is nowhere where you can feel 100% secure.

ksllaw
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:17 pm

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby ksllaw » Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:40 pm

2014 wrote:Keep in mind the C/O 2011 did their job interviews in August 2009, aka the first hiring cycle after shit hit the fan in Fall 2008 so for as bad as the picture is now, that one is worse. Not to mention schools that feed into markets other than NYC were hit even harder than average.

While the market is noticeably better now for top schools, it is still brutal especially in the face of rising tuition and the loss of subsidized loans, and Ray's thread makes it clear that there is nowhere where you can feel 100% secure.


It seems a major key in these stats is whether or not the law grads had gotten "meaningful" employment. By meaningful, I mean a job that can pay back their law school loans vs. a job at Burger King ..or as a bartender, etc.

Given the typical $150K debt many law students have, a job making say $50-60K a year is almost no job at all. Think: $11K needs to be paid in interest ALONE on law school debt annually...then you have whatever other loan repayment amount. ...Take taxes away next (actually first)...then cost of rent, car, clothes, food, etc. and that person may be in poverty!

A 50% (roughly) unemployment rate amongst law grads is pretty scary. The national unemployment rate is what?...8%-ish. ...With law grads, the key is meaningful employment (because of the law debt factor).

I wonder if there are adjusted statistics for this notion of meaningful employment? Because if say...30%+ of law grads even are not finding meaningful employment then that would seem to be a crisis in the legal/law school community.

Again, if the national unemployment rate is:
8%-ish (granted many who are employed in the natl. avg. may not have "meaningful" employment relative to their circumstances either)

and the law grad meaningful unemployment rate is:
30% (just throwing that out as a hypothetical)

Could we maybe say that there are literally are no words to describe it?...that it's not a crisis, but maybe more like the great depression for law grads?! :shock:
Last edited by ksllaw on Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:00 pm, edited 4 times in total.

ksllaw
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:17 pm

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby ksllaw » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:50 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2gvnPTHvH8 3/5/2012 Lecture/Talk

So...adding more to the discussion is this video of a talk by Paul Campos - Law Professor (U. Colorado Boulder Law) and Law Prof. Deborah Rhode (Stanford Law) on the serious problems with law school debt, unemployment, regulations, and a host of other related stuff to this thread.

They seem to echo a lot of what's been linked or said in this thread. There was mention of an NYU grad with I believe $175K law debt living in his parents' basement and unable to get a job whatsoever after being laid off two years after law school (from a large NYC or Wall Street law job), because he was competing against so many more people with much more experience than him (knowing how to litigate this and that with years of experience over him as a new 2008 grad). It sounded bleak!

They also go through the Ivy League law schools listing the percentages of people "in trouble" after graduating. I believe the figures for some top schools were roughly like 33% of Duke law grads...36% of Columbia grads...52% of Michigan grads...60% of Georgetown grads....47% of NYU grads ......ALL top (T14) schools.

If these top rated law school grads can't get meaningful jobs - I'm guessing they were at the bottom half of their classes? - then how will students from lower tiered schools do?

It's very eye-opening and interesting folks! A bit long, but worth the watch for those of us making the big law school decision soon.
Last edited by ksllaw on Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
SuperCerealBrah
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:34 pm

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby SuperCerealBrah » Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:56 pm

Wormfather wrote:
sunynp wrote:You should find rayiners unemployment thread if you think top schools are immune.
This forum has plenty of threads by top grads who can't find jobs or who got no offered. Im not sure what more you want. There are threads by people who decided not to go and people who have dropped out.


This. Go get an MBA or something. This law bubble is popping. If you do decide to go to law school you have a duty to convince five others not to. A reverse ponzi scheme is our only hope.



The whole "top school or go home" thing is even more important for an MBA. However, TBF, an MBA does not limit you just to one field like law does.

User avatar
SuperCerealBrah
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:34 pm

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby SuperCerealBrah » Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:00 pm

ksllaw wrote:
2014 wrote:Keep in mind the C/O 2011 did their job interviews in August 2009, aka the first hiring cycle after shit hit the fan in Fall 2008 so for as bad as the picture is now, that one is worse. Not to mention schools that feed into markets other than NYC were hit even harder than average.

While the market is noticeably better now for top schools, it is still brutal especially in the face of rising tuition and the loss of subsidized loans, and Ray's thread makes it clear that there is nowhere where you can feel 100% secure.


It seems a major key in these stats is whether or not the law grads had gotten "meaningful" employment. By meaningful, I mean a job that can pay back their law school loans vs. a job at Burger King ..or as a bartender, etc.

Given the typical $150K debt many law students have, a job making say $50-60K a year is almost no job at all. Think: $11K needs to be paid in interest ALONE on law school debt annually...then you have whatever other loan repayment amount. ...Take taxes away next (actually first)...then cost of rent, car, clothes, food, etc. and that person may be in poverty!

....A a 50% (roughly) unemployment rate amonst law grads is pretty scary. The national unemployment rate is what?...8%-ish. ...With law grads, the key is meaningful employment (becuz of the law debt factor).

I wonder if there are adjusted statistics for this notion of meaningful employment? ...Because if say...30%+ of law grads even are not finding meaningful employment then that would seem to be a crisis in the legal/law school community.

Heck, if the national unemployment rate is:
8% (granted many who are employed in the natl. avg. may not have "meaningful" employment relative to their circumstances either)

and the law grad meaningful unemployment rate is:
30% (just throwing that out as a hypothetical)

There literally are no words to describe it...it's not a crisis, but the great depression for law grads! :shock:





A job is a job. If it puts food on the table, then its meaningful. I promise you its better than starving on the street. And if you don't find it "meaningful", I also promise you there will be someone willing to take your place for that position.

ksllaw
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:17 pm

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby ksllaw » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:36 am

SuperCerealBrah wrote:
Wormfather wrote:
sunynp wrote:You should find rayiners unemployment thread if you think top schools are immune.
This forum has plenty of threads by top grads who can't find jobs or who got no offered. Im not sure what more you want. There are threads by people who decided not to go and people who have dropped out.


This. Go get an MBA or something. This law bubble is popping. If you do decide to go to law school you have a duty to convince five others not to. A reverse ponzi scheme is our only hope.


The whole "top school or go home" thing is even more important for an MBA. However, TBF, an MBA does not limit you just to one field like law does.


Are you sure about that with MBA's?

For some reason I always thought that MBA's had better prospects from top to bottom (and less debt as well). But that was just based solely on impressions from acquaintances I know of who got their MBA's. :lol:

As for a "job being a job" in your other post, I agree that that's technically true. But one has to do the math of what it would take in salary to pay back a $150K loan with standard going interest rates (at $11K in interest, alone, per year). With a $75K salary...say for a single person, you're maybe left with about $58K or so after taxes.

If we then subtract $11K in interest, alone, from law school debt, that leaves $48K. Another $12K in principal and other loan repayment (undergrad or what have you) and you're at $38K. Depending on where you live, the cost of living can eat a signifcant chuck out of your salary from here (although some places have quite good costs of living). So we might ask: What can a person afford at $38K/year as a single person after these aforementioned expenses?

This is all hypothetical, btw. But just doing it for the sake of illustration. If you pay $500 rent a month that's $6,000/year and now you're at $32K.

Factor in clothing (for a legal job), food, car payments, car insurance, gas, home supplies, various utility and "fix it up" bills, entertainment, ...all the other stuff for living and you may only be able to save $16K a year if you're lucky. ...A $16K savings/year will take time to accumulate enough to purchase a home/mortgage. Suppose one is 30 y/o when graduating from law school. You may only have roughly 30 years of earning power in the legal labor market. With your debt situation and a $75K salary will that be enough to live the life you desire? (All hypothetical, but can easily be a realistic case for someone.)

I was possibly generous with the $75K salary, because I'm guessing from the statistics Paul Campos gave, where even top law school grads can't get "meaningful" employment to cover the costs of living and loans and sustain an acceptable quality of life, that probably many lower non-T14 law grads will struggle just as much and probably even more in the market. Many will never get the $120K starting salaries of big law firms common in the "old days." And if they do, given the competition and structure of law they may be gone after a few years and having to find employment again. This time it could be for a lower salary. ...But, nevertheless, if we just use $75K as a kind of average expected salary ...even if not totally reasonable...at least as an example of a salary for our scenario....many may even struggle to get that type of salary if they're not working in the legal field as a practicing lawyer. Where can one work outside of law that would pay $75K/year? That's question that needs to be asked. I'm guessing there are probably many who take on jobs paying closer to $50K. And where does that leave people with $150K potentially life-changing debt?

A person might be employed, but if their salary is such that it can't repay their loans, while allowing for savings and building a stable and good life, then it really is a dilemma the prospective law student must face and ask tough questions about. One's entire life might be significantly altered (in a negative way) because of a decision to go to law school. And it may not have much to do with their intelligence (as Campos points out in the video with the UWisc grad example), but as Paul Campos and Deborah Rhode point out it's the contracting law market + increased law tuition and over-supply of lawyers (from years of out of control admissions)...it's seems just a very very tough market for probably 90% of all law grades. It's an unsustainable system they say in the video. When NYU law grads with two years of big law firm experience are living in their parents' basement with no prospects and $175K debt...that's quite serious. It might not be an over-statement to say law school can lead to a doomed financial life, emotional stress and disappointment, diminished quality of life, and so on. ...A person's inner worth should not be judged by law school, but the practical side of life can take a huge blow and ought to be something considered carefully before applying to ls's.
Last edited by ksllaw on Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Kikero
Posts: 1208
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:28 am

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby Kikero » Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:30 am

ksllaw wrote:
SuperCerealBrah wrote:
Wormfather wrote:
sunynp wrote:You should find rayiners unemployment thread if you think top schools are immune.
This forum has plenty of threads by top grads who can't find jobs or who got no offered. Im not sure what more you want. There are threads by people who decided not to go and people who have dropped out.


This. Go get an MBA or something. This law bubble is popping. If you do decide to go to law school you have a duty to convince five others not to. A reverse ponzi scheme is our only hope.


The whole "top school or go home" thing is even more important for an MBA. However, TBF, an MBA does not limit you just to one field like law does.


Are you sure about that with MBA's?

For some reason I always thought that MBA's had better prospects from top to bottom (and less debt as well). But that was just based solely on impressions from acquaintances I know of who got their MBA's. :lol:



Well MBA's are different because a lot of people get them without leaving their current employer, and in that case I would imagine the school rank doesn't matter as much. However, if you go to a "TTT" b-school or do one of those online MBA programs and then go looking for a job, you are probably fucked.

Bankrupt257
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:31 pm

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby Bankrupt257 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:14 pm

This. Go get an MBA or something. This law bubble is popping. If you do decide to go to law school you have a duty to convince five others not to. A reverse ponzi scheme is our only hope.[/quote]

The whole "top school or go home" thing is even more important for an MBA. However, TBF, an MBA does not limit you just to one field like law does.[/quote]

Are you sure about that with MBA's?

For some reason I always thought that MBA's had better prospects from top to bottom (and less debt as well). But that was just based solely on impressions from acquaintances I know of who got their MBA's. :lol:

[/quote]

Well MBA's are different because a lot of people get them without leaving their current employer, and in that case I would imagine the school rank doesn't matter as much. However, if you go to a "TTT" b-school or do one of those online MBA programs and then go looking for a job, you are probably fucked.[/quote]


Coming from someone who almost pulled the trigger on a TT MBA, its not much better than law. Top Students go F500, the rest either go back to their previous employer or the same industry. The MBA is just as toxic as law ESPECIALLY if it is Full time. Mine was going to be $87,000. I said for that price, it was not worth it. And MBA's are prestige whores also. Post-Graduate school in general is in a crisis...

ksllaw
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:17 pm

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby ksllaw » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:25 pm

I'm extremely late on this (2011), but Brian Leiter has been dualing with Paul Campos on his assertions about law school being a scam. There's an enormous amount of material online re: this, but just thought I'd throw in some critiques of Campos for the purposes of offering a dissenting opinion and to balance out the views here:

From Prof. Leiter's (U. Chicago) blog (from the way it was typed and indented, I wasn't sure if this was Leiter himself of he was quoting a colleague here, but nevertheless there's plenty of other critiques from Leiter available elsewhere as well):
"I understand that Paul Campos, our ScamProf, is feeling desperate, given the hole he's dug for himself. His colleagues are furious, he was already an embarrassment to his institution, and now he's added fuel to the fire by openly insulting his colleagues. But whereas the facts about Campos that I've adduced (he disputes none of them, for obvious reasons) are highly relevant to understanding why he would lie, exaggerate and engage in reckless generalizations about his professional colleagues, the facts and non-facts he adduces about me are just irrelevant ad hominems.

It is unfortunate that some victims of the recession think, falsely, that ScamProf Campos is doing something courageous on their behalf. He's not, he's just doing what he always does, trying to surf the wave of the latest fad and attract attention to himself. For years, I've pressed for better job placementdata and cautioned students about the reality of the recent job market and relying on the data in US News. There's no dispute about the importance of that. There's no dispute that some law schools have misled prospective students; some are now being sued, and we will see what facts come to light. There's no dispute that some faculty, in all disciplines, abuse the privilege of tenure--Campos is a prime example. None of this warrants the absurdly offensive description of American legal education as a "scam." The American legal system is one of the best in the world--did that happen despite American legal education? The leading law firms continue to recruit at the leading law schools, the ones that produce all the scholarship ScamProf Campos derides. Are they simply benighted? Law professors, at least the good ones (like most of Campos's colleagues at Colorado that I know), teach substantive doctrine in many areas of law as well as analytical and dialectical skills that lawyers need. (My teaching evaluations, by the way, are a matter of public record, will ScamProf Campos share his?) There's been debates for years about the relative balance of doctrinal, theoretical, and clinical teaching in legal education, and those will no doubt continue, independent of ScamProf Campos..."


That was an excerpt of one of his scathing blog critiques of Campos' "law school is a scam" thesis.
Last edited by ksllaw on Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
bowser
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby bowser » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:52 pm

ksllaw wrote:I'm extremely late on this (2011), but Brian Leiter has been dualing with Paul Campos on his assertions about law school being a scam. There's an enormous amount of material online re: this, but just thought I'd throw in some critiques of Campos for the purposes of offering a dissenting opinion and to balance out the views here:

From Prof. Leiter's (U. Chicago) blog (from the way it was typed and indented, I wasn't sure if this was Leiter himself of he was quoting a colleague here, but nevertheless there's plenty of other critiques from Leiter available elsewhere as well):
"I understand that Paul Campos, our ScamProf, is feeling desperate, given the hole he's dug for himself. His colleagues are furious, he was already an embarrassment to his institution, and now he's added fuel to the fire by openly insulting his colleagues. But whereas the facts about Campos that I've adduced (he disputes none of them, for obvious reasons) are highly relevant to understanding why he would lie, exaggerate and engage in reckless generalizations about his professional colleagues, the facts and non-facts he adduces about me are just irrelevant ad hominems.

It is unfortunate that some victims of the recession think, falsely, that ScamProf Campos is doing something courageous on their behalf. He's not, he's just doing what he always does, trying to surf the wave of the latest fad and attract attention to himself. For years, I've pressed for better job placementdata and cautioned students about the reality of the recent job market and relying on the data in US News. There's no dispute about the importance of that. There's no dispute that some law schools have misled prospective students; some are now being sued, and we will see what facts come to light. There's no dispute that some faculty, in all disciplines, abuse the privilege of tenure--Campos is a prime example. None of this warrants the absurdly offensive description of American legal education as a "scam." The American legal system is one of the best in the world--did that happen despite American legal education? The leading law firms continue to recruit at the leading law schools, the ones that produce all the scholarship ScamProf Campos derides. Are they simply benighted? Law professors, at least the good ones (like most of Campos's colleagues at Colorado that I know), teach substantive doctrine in many areas of law as well as analytical and dialectical skills that lawyers need. (My teaching evaluations, by the way, are a matter of public record, will ScamProf Campos share his?) There's been debates for years about the relative balance of doctrinal, theoretical, and clinical teaching in legal education, and those will no doubt continue, independent of ScamProf Campos..."


Just a snippet of one of his scathing blog critiques of Campos' "law school is a scam" thesis.



I think Campos goes overboard a heck of a lot, but this is a terrible rebuttal to his argument (at least if this section is representative of the whole). It doesn't address anything related to Campos' argument--that schools are producing way too many law school graduates for the jobs available.

ksllaw
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:17 pm

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby ksllaw » Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:13 pm

bowser wrote:I think Campos goes overboard a heck of a lot, but this is a terrible rebuttal to his argument (at least if this section is representative of the whole). It doesn't address anything related to Campos' argument--that schools are producing way too many law school graduates for the jobs available.


Bowser, it appears that that's only one of many comments and critiques that Leiter has written about Campos. A quick Google search terms up a lot more. I'll see if I can post a few counter-argument comments from Leiter that deal more specifically with Campos' data if I can find any (trying to avoid any purely ad hominem type of attacks).

But your point is well taken that if the market is indeed close to a 2:1 ratio of law grads to lawyer jobs, as Campos says here (below), then that still remains a significant concern for the legal industry and legal education:


from: http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/
August 14, 2012: excerpt from his blog post titled, "To the Class of 2015"
"You’re sitting in the faux courtroom of the Titanic School of Law, preparing to spend the next three years sailing straight into the iceberg known as the American legal profession. OK, everyone in an odd-numbered seat, raise your hand. Thank you. None of you are going to get jobs as lawyers. Do you know why? Because you’re not going to hustle and network enough.

J/K LOL! That’s not why. The real reason is because there are only enough legal jobs (sort of) for half of you. So half of you aren’t getting a job as a lawyer. Hey I know people go to law school because they’re bad at math but that equation’s not too tough to figure out, am I right?

And you people in the even-numbered seats, don’t start fist-bumping each other just yet. You know what the jobs you’re going to get are going to pay? $40,000! Sounds impossible doesn’t it? You’re going to be real lawyers after all. But check it out: last year the median reported salary for people graduating outside the top dozen or so law schools was $55,000. And that’s a big exaggeration, because only 35% of the graduates of non-elite law schools had their salaries recorded. Guess which graduates were more likely to have their salaries recorded? You in the middle of the front row in the Princeton sweatshirt. That’s right – the ones with higher salaries. Well reasoned my fine young man: I do believe you’re already thinking like a lawyer!

So half of you aren’t going to be lawyers, and as an added extra bonus you’ll pick up a degree which makes it a lot harder to get non-legal jobs. Oh wait, what’s that you say? A law degree is “versatile?” You’re killing me Smalls. Let me clue you in on a little secret: non-lawyers hate hiring people with law degrees. It’s true! They think you’re going to run off to a high-paying legal job as soon as one opens up, or they think they’ve got something wrong with you because you’re not practicing law, or they think you’ll sue them, or they just generally hate lawyers...

So a very few years from now, with the exception of a handful of you who will be lucky enough to sign up to be helots for a giant law firm, plus a few others who come from rich and well connected families (actually there’s a lot of overlap in those two groups for deeply mysterious reasons we’ve never been able to understand), all of you will be either practicing law for peanuts, or not practicing law at all and trying to figure out how to remove the stigma of your law degree from what you will be thinking of as your permanent record, while struggling with veritable and growing mountain of high interest debt that you can’t get rid of – lawyers say “discharge” – in bankruptcy..."



The numbers, of course, need more clarification and context (such as disaggregating T14 from other schools, looking at figures and outcomes for people in joint MBA/JD programs, etc.), such as what rayiner attempted to do in another recent thread ( viewtopic.php?f=4&t=191548 ), but Campos' basic thesis that there's a vast over-supply of lawyers/law grads to "acceptable" jobs (for these grads) is something that may still be true and needs to be carefully considered by us OL's - even if it's not on the exact scale as he describes it (from the other thread, there's been some debate about the numbers ..something that's ongoing).
Last edited by ksllaw on Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
justonemoregame
Posts: 1160
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:51 pm

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby justonemoregame » Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:27 pm

That there is a vast over-supply of JDs is undeniably true. Even with a significant decrease in enrollment this year - at least one professor who has done his research has suggested as many as 7,000 fewer matriculants - there will still be 40,000 people going to law school and competing for 25,000 jobs. Even with 5% attrition and a handful of people seeking non-law jobs, it's still way too many.

ksllaw
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:17 pm

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby ksllaw » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:30 pm

justonemoregame wrote:That there is a vast over-supply of JDs is undeniably true. Even with a significant decrease in enrollment this year - at least one professor who has done his research has suggested as many as 7,000 fewer matriculants - there will still be 40,000 people going to law school and competing for 25,000 jobs. Even with 5% attrition and a handful of people seeking non-law jobs, it's still way too many.



justone, I wonder if those numbers are worse, because of recently let go big firm lawyers also flooding the market? Would they be in a spot to compete for these entry level jobs as well?

I don't know if it was this year or last, but I believe I saw something like approx. 15,000 attorneys jobs were lost from the market.

There was even one story, albeit a dated one from 2010, of a Harvard Law School graduate being unemployed:
http://articles.businessinsider.com/201 ... -big-money

I don't know how trustworthy these sort of sites and posts are, but another claims another Harvard Law grad ended up working at a motel, in order to have a place to live and pay off his student loan debt:
http://butidideverythingrightorsoithoug ... al_21.html

Although, the story did strike me as a bit far-fetched...but I think it's difficult to know the truth of people's outcomes in these situations, given the social stigma attached to coming forward and revealing oneself.

lukertin
Posts: 775
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:16 am

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby lukertin » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:36 pm

Doesn't surprise me at all.

As for where a J.D. can work outside of law for $75k/yr...nothing he couldn't have done without the J.D.

User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: Huffington Post - LS Grads 55% Chance of FT Job in 9 Months

Postby IAFG » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:50 pm

This thread feels really off.

And I also distrust anyone who wants anecdotes over statistics.




Return to “Ask a Law Student / Graduate”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest