University of Texas 1L Taking Questions

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utlaw2007
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Re: University of Texas 1L Taking Questions

Postby utlaw2007 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:43 am

Interesting perspectives here. Curious, I would recommend going to a higher ranked school out of state. utlaw2007 may be right that smaller or mid firms recruit at UT quite heavily, but 23% biglaw is not a very strong showing. Compare that to 34% at Michigan or 45% at Duke (numbers are from lawschooltransparency.com school profiles). That might not sound like too big a difference, but that's like 40-80 more students that schools place in biglaw. There were quite a few Texas firms that interviewed at our OCI. I think going to one of those law schools would give you the flexibility of pursuing Texas biglaw in addition to other markets. The Texas market did not seem overly focused on UT students; I think it is misleading to say that they are at the front of the line. Anyone with substantive Texas ties would be able to make their case to an interviewer (I thought the DC interviews I had were the most focused on regional ties, rather than the Texas interviews ).


Also, I must reiterate this point I have made before, please make sure you interpret those biglaw numbers correctly. I'm not saying that half the class could go biglaw at Texas. But to say that only 23% of UT grads could get biglaw assumes that all UT grads want biglaw as their ultimate destination. And that is just not accurate and represents a flaw in interpreting data. The cost of living in Texas is far cheaper than that on the east coast or Chicago. Biglaw is not a necessary option to pay off debt and live comfortably in Texas like it is on the east coast. Therefore, people who go to east coast schools are seeking biglaw more aggressively than UT Law grads. I can cite anecdotal evidence which means very little. But I can also cite that east coast cost of living is far greater than Texas which is an obvious fact. Those extra expenses have to be accounted for in the type of income you could receive from prospective employers. Thus, you favor potential employers who could pay you enough money to cover these expenses. In Texas, that is not nearly as big a consideration as it is on both coasts because those extra expenses in the form of higher cost of living don't exist.

And I don't think it is at all misleading to say that UT grads comprise the bulk of recruiting at smaller Texas biglaw firms that pay at or around market. Most firms around the country largely recruit locally. It's cheaper, why wouldn't they? And Texas based firms are no different. As I have stated before, these firms probably didn't recruit at your OCI. So how would you even know about these firms? I have specified repeatedly that there is a big difference in biglaw firm approaches to what types of law school graduates they want to recruit.

What I find troubling about this site is its failure to distinguish among things that are superficially similar and the lack of realization that numbers paint partial pictures of the complete picture of what may be happening. I'm not advocating that one explanation is more likely than the other. I have no idea. What I am advocating is that if one is going to use information to help shed light on a decision, that information should be correctly interpreted. And the words I use should not be glossed over or substituted with words that are deficient at conveying the meaning I was expressing.

That 23% number does not include some firms that are technically biglaw in Texas that some UT Law grads choose for employment over biglaw. That number reflects the NLJ250. I'm not counting boutiques because I assume those numbers cancel themselves out among the top schools. Some Texas firms that are technically biglaw are not a part of that list, like Brown McCarroll for example. But again, Biglaw is not sought after by UT Law grads in the same way it is by east coast students. For example, I had law school classmate friend from Austin. She was offered a position at Baker Botts, one of Texas' most prestigious firms, and a midsize firm. She chose the midsize firm. The midsize firm is not on the NJL250 list. Yet she could have taken the Baker Botts offer. She didn't. Texas' cost of living allows for some UT Law grads to self select out of Biglaw. I can use myself as another example. I can use several people as examples. Those numbers are only completely accurate if the assumption that everyone wants biglaw more than anything else is correct. It's not correct. So when you evaluate UT's 23% against 34% from a school that is more expensive to attend than UT (the significance of that is that more of the other school's grads are shooting for biglaw to pay their debt and most of the jobs available to that school's grads are located in high cost of living areas), the difference is minimal and pretty much a wash.

I also find it funny that someone else's anecdotal evidence is implied to be superior to my anecdotal evidence. Both are suspect and should be viewed as such, equally. We don't get to pick and choose what evidence should count just because it sounds better to us. When evaluating hard evidence, all factors and realistically possible explanations should be considered.

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timeandspace11
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Re: University of Texas 1L Taking Questions

Postby timeandspace11 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:16 am

utlaw2007 wrote:
Interesting perspectives here. Curious, I would recommend going to a higher ranked school out of state. utlaw2007 may be right that smaller or mid firms recruit at UT quite heavily, but 23% biglaw is not a very strong showing. Compare that to 34% at Michigan or 45% at Duke (numbers are from lawschooltransparency.com school profiles). That might not sound like too big a difference, but that's like 40-80 more students that schools place in biglaw. There were quite a few Texas firms that interviewed at our OCI. I think going to one of those law schools would give you the flexibility of pursuing Texas biglaw in addition to other markets. The Texas market did not seem overly focused on UT students; I think it is misleading to say that they are at the front of the line. Anyone with substantive Texas ties would be able to make their case to an interviewer (I thought the DC interviews I had were the most focused on regional ties, rather than the Texas interviews ).


Also, I must reiterate this point I have made before, please make sure you interpret those biglaw numbers correctly. I'm not saying that half the class could go biglaw at Texas. But to say that only 23% of UT grads could get biglaw assumes that all UT grads want biglaw as their ultimate destination. And that is just not accurate and represents a flaw in interpreting data. The cost of living in Texas is far cheaper than that on the east coast or Chicago. Biglaw is not a necessary option to pay off debt and live comfortably in Texas like it is on the east coast. Therefore, people who go to east coast schools are seeking biglaw more aggressively than UT Law grads. I can cite anecdotal evidence which means very little. But I can also cite that east coast cost of living is far greater than Texas which is an obvious fact. Those extra expenses have to be accounted for in the type of income you could receive from prospective employers. Thus, you favor potential employers who could pay you enough money to cover these expenses. In Texas, that is not nearly as big a consideration as it is on both coasts because those extra expenses in the form of higher cost of living don't exist.

And I don't think it is at all misleading to say that UT grads comprise the bulk of recruiting at smaller Texas biglaw firms that pay at or around market. Most firms around the country largely recruit locally. It's cheaper, why wouldn't they? And Texas based firms are no different. As I have stated before, these firms probably didn't recruit at your OCI. So how would you even know about these firms? I have specified repeatedly that there is a big difference in biglaw firm approaches to what types of law school graduates they want to recruit.

What I find troubling about this site is its failure to distinguish among things that are superficially similar and the lack of realization that numbers paint partial pictures of the complete picture of what may be happening. I'm not advocating that one explanation is more likely than the other. I have no idea. What I am advocating is that if one is going to use information to help shed light on a decision, that information should be correctly interpreted. And the words I use should not be glossed over or substituted with words that are deficient at conveying the meaning I was expressing.

That 23% number does not include some firms that are technically biglaw in Texas that some UT Law grads choose for employment over biglaw. That number reflects the NLJ250. I'm not counting boutiques because I assume those numbers cancel themselves out among the top schools. Some Texas firms that are technically biglaw are not a part of that list, like Brown McCarroll for example. But again, Biglaw is not sought after by UT Law grads in the same way it is by east coast students. For example, I had law school classmate friend from Austin. She was offered a position at Baker Botts, one of Texas' most prestigious firms, and a midsize firm. She chose the midsize firm. The midsize firm is not on the NJL250 list. Yet she could have taken the Baker Botts offer. She didn't. Texas' cost of living allows for some UT Law grads to self select out of Biglaw. I can use myself as another example. I can use several people as examples. Those numbers are only completely accurate if the assumption that everyone wants biglaw more than anything else is correct. It's not correct. So when you evaluate UT's 23% against 34% from a school that is more expensive to attend than UT (the significance of that is that more of the other school's grads are shooting for biglaw to pay their debt and most of the jobs available to that school's grads are located in high cost of living areas), the difference is minimal and pretty much a wash.

I also find it funny that someone else's anecdotal evidence is implied to be superior to my anecdotal evidence. Both are suspect and should be viewed as such, equally. We don't get to pick and choose what evidence should count just because it sounds better to us. When evaluating hard evidence, all factors and realistically possible explanations should be considered.



Actually this is pretty much the only thing that makes me nervous about attending Texas. I do not have ties to the state. Besides going to UT law, is there anything I can do to show employers I am dedicated to the region?

My other question is regarding to the scholarship matching program. If I get into a t14 at sticker, should I mention that in my attempt to increase my merit scholarship offer?

utlaw2007
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Re: University of Texas 1L Taking Questions

Postby utlaw2007 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:40 am

Actually this is pretty much the only thing that makes me nervous about attending Texas. I do not have ties to the state. Besides going to UT law, is there anything I can do to show employers I am dedicated to the region?

My other question is regarding to the scholarship matching program. If I get into a t14 at sticker, should I mention that in my attempt to increase my merit scholarship offer?


I honestly don't think it is a big problem if you go to UT Law without ties to the state. The real problem is if you go to another school outside the region and try to get Texas without ties. I had several classmates who got biglaw without ties to Texas. I know that is anecdotal, but that is all I have. I would think that is the situation for a significant number of people who go to law school across the country. I think going to UT is sufficient enough for a significant number of firms, maybe even most firms. The bigger biglaw firms aren't going to split hairs about ties if you go to UT. Remember, going to UT makes you a fellow alum with most hiring partners at these biglaw firms. That cannot be underestimated as long as you have the grades. It would be the smaller firms that may or may not have a problem with it.

That being said, you should mention your admission into another school. I wouldn't volunteer to disclose I was accepted at sticker unless UT asks you. You definitely don't want to lie about it. But I would imagine that disclosing that you got accepted into a higher ranked school would create leverage, especially if you are not from Texas. To UT, the other higher ranked school might seem to be a more viable option for you in terms of national prestige. I am not an expert on creating scholarship leverage. Frankly, I know very little about it.

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timeandspace11
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Re: University of Texas 1L Taking Questions

Postby timeandspace11 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:20 am

What do you think of the LRAP at Texas? I believe you get assistance at any salary under $50k in a public interest job. Do you know anyone who takes advantage of LRAP and has it effectively relieved some of their debt burden?

BigZuck
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Re: University of Texas 1L Taking Questions

Postby BigZuck » Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:15 am

timeandspace11 wrote:What do you think of the LRAP at Texas? I believe you get assistance at any salary under $50k in a public interest job. Do you know anyone who takes advantage of LRAP and has it effectively relieved some of their debt burden?


Not knowledgeable about lrap at all so could be totally off base but at UT it seems like more of a token program and one of the weakest lraps at any top school. Pretty strict on salary and when you can enter the program and when you get disqualified for it. But honestly I could be off base and have to do more research about all the different lraps.

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timeandspace11
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Re: University of Texas 1L Taking Questions

Postby timeandspace11 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:26 pm

Is it a good idea to get a 9 month lease if you can? I have heard it is more common for UT students to work in Houston or Dallas during summers.

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StylinNProfilin
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Re: University of Texas 1L Taking Questions

Postby StylinNProfilin » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:56 am

timeandspace11 wrote:Is it a good idea to get a 9 month lease if you can? I have heard it is more common for UT students to work in Houston or Dallas during summers.


To add on to this question, where to most people work for 1L Summer? Is it difficult to find something in Austin for the summer? Obviously Dallas/Houston are the popular destinations for 2L Summer.

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untar614
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Re: University of Texas 1L Taking Questions

Postby untar614 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:37 pm

Are any of you, or do you know anyone, who went to UT from out of state?

I have pretty weak ties to Texas as of right now (aunt, uncle, grandparents live a little north of dallas, but i've never lived in tx), though my parents are looking to move there in the future. I'm wondering how hard it would be to get a 1L SA, and more importantly, land a good position in Texas after graduation without strong ties to the state - I would indeed be looking to stay in TX if I went to UT. If it makes any difference, I'm patent elligible and would plan on studying for and hopefully passing the patent bar before starting class.

UT so far has given me a pretty good scholarship, and I'm hoping I can get it bumped to full tuition, so just paying living expenses in Austin, if I live fruugally, shouldn't leave me with too much debt.

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shifty_eyed
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Re: University of Texas 1L Taking Questions

Postby shifty_eyed » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:50 pm

Any 1Ls (or 2 or 3Ls) here who scheduled a fin aid meeting during ASW? I made a meeting and want to discuss scholarship negotiation, and I'm curious if anyone has past experience, suggestions, etc. I am grateful for the scholarship I have, but I am extremely debt averse and any bump in scholarship could help seal the deal. 8)

BigZuck
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Re: University of Texas 1L Taking Questions

Postby BigZuck » Thu May 23, 2013 10:09 am

What is median looking like for UT kids these days. Like everyone else I fully plan on crushing law school and finishing top 3% (at the very least) but realistically I will be a mediocre student and decidedly average. So where does that leave me? Defending DUIs in Edna? Traffic tickets in Fort Stockton? Homeless?

I'm assuming big law is out, even with Texas ties. Is well paying midlaw really a thing or do you need to have connections to swing that? I don't really have many connections to lawyers in Texas yet. Or what about working as a PD or DA? Are people getting those positions out of UT and is it possible without having a demonstrated interest in PI before law school?

Are any current students even still reading this thread?

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philosoraptor
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Re: University of Texas 1L Taking Questions

Postby philosoraptor » Thu May 23, 2013 11:57 am

BigZuck wrote:What is median looking like for UT kids these days. Like everyone else I fully plan on crushing law school and finishing top 3% (at the very least) but realistically I will be a mediocre student and decidedly average. So where does that leave me? Defending DUIs in Edna? Traffic tickets in Fort Stockton? Homeless?

I'm assuming big law is out, even with Texas ties. Is well paying midlaw really a thing or do you need to have connections to swing that? I don't really have many connections to lawyers in Texas yet. Or what about working as a PD or DA? Are people getting those positions out of UT and is it possible without having a demonstrated interest in PI before law school?

Are any current students even still reading this thread?
I was a little above median after 1L but snagged a couple of out-of-state biglaw offers, one from targeted mailing and one from OCI-mailing combo. It can be done from median range, if you target firms that are good fits and interview well. Based on what I've seen from the classes below me, it's only gotten better. But this is anecdotal evidence only; YMMV.

From what I've seen, DA/PD stuff is tough without consistent demonstrated interest and ties to a specific county.

123kl
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Re: University of Texas 1L Taking Questions

Postby 123kl » Sat May 25, 2013 6:33 pm

Hi all. Is anyone familiar with Prof. Justin Driver? He'll be a visiting professor at HLS next year and will be teaching 14th Amendment. I'm considering taking his class. Is he well-regarded at UT? Would anyone mind sharing any course evaluations with me? Feel free to PM. Thank you so much!!!

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: University of Texas 1L Taking Questions

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sat May 25, 2013 6:41 pm

123kl wrote:Hi all. Is anyone familiar with Prof. Justin Driver? He'll be a visiting professor at HLS next year and will be teaching 14th Amendment. I'm considering taking his class. Is he well-regarded at UT? Would anyone mind sharing any course evaluations with me? Feel free to PM. Thank you so much!!!


Prof. Driver is great, imo. He has very good teaching evaluations, and it's obvious that he cares a lot about his students. From what I know, he's got a very good reputation at UT, among both professors and students. If he ends up leaving UT, I know a lot of UT people will be very sad to see him go.

nonprofit-prophet
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Re: University of Texas 1L Taking Questions

Postby nonprofit-prophet » Sat May 25, 2013 9:53 pm

123kl wrote:Hi all. Is anyone familiar with Prof. Justin Driver? He'll be a visiting professor at HLS next year and will be teaching 14th Amendment. I'm considering taking his class. Is he well-regarded at UT? Would anyone mind sharing any course evaluations with me? Feel free to PM. Thank you so much!!!


I had him for con law 1. He was a great professor. If you have the opportunity to take a course with him, you definitely should.




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