University of Texas 1L Taking Questions

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Can anyone speculate on what they think the dramatic cut in class size means for incoming UT students when it comes to biglaw hiring?

What I mean is: let's say for the sake of the argument that there used to be 400 UT students and 100 big law jobs. And again for the sake of the argument say that these 100 jobs were given to the top 100 kids in the class, so the top 25% (oversimplifications, I know, just bear with me).

Now, instead of there being 400 UT students there are 300. But there are still 100 big law jobs. Should we now assume that the top 33% of the class will get those jobs? Or, will firms hold tight to their (hypothetical) top 25% cut off and only 75 UT kids will get those jobs and the other 25 spots will be filled from other schools?

Hopefully that wasn't too confusing, I can try and clarify if need be. I'm just wondering if we should consider the cut in class size as removing the bottom of the class and it will be better for everyone or if the employment scores will roughly stay the same percentage wise (and yes I know what we are looking at on places like LST is from the worst year in recent history).

Don't get bogged down in this line of thinking. I doubt employers (firms, government agencies, public interest outfits) will lower their standards if the number of UT students shrinks. Put another way, if they don't like you, they won't hire you, regardless of how many classmates you have. Focus on your own prospects instead of a statistical hypothesis.

I'll bet you can count on a better chance at a good parking spot, though.

If you're saying you think that cut offs will remain the same then thanks, that's helpful. The other part of your response I'm a little leery of. I'm trying to avoid thinking that I am a special snowflake and figure out what my statistical chances are from each school I am applying to. Forgive me if I misinterpreted what you said and thanks for responding.

TBF, I think you're correct in thinking that a smaller class size could increase your chances at biglaw. Most firms have large enough cutoffs that they will be giving 2L summer spots to a lot less people than those that fit within the cutoff. Thus, if a firm is used to taking around a certain amount of UT students, if hiring needs stay consistent I think a firm would probably stay around that same amount--meaning that there should be less competition among UT students for those spots. That said, I think the current 1L class size is a bit of anomaly, and the administration is hoping to get the size closer to the average of ~380 for the next class (whether they can do that without hurting their medians remains to be seen though).

[utlaw2007]

Can you name some biglaw firms in TX that have nothing but UT Law grads? I can think of a lit boutique that draws most of their people from Harvard and UT (Gibbs & Bruns), but lit boutiques aren't the best thing to concentrate on for this comparison since not too many people from UT or T14 schools will get the option of going there after graduation. Most of the bigname firms in Dallas and Houston take on plenty of T14 people. Maybe firms more focused on just Texas like jackson walker, Thompson Knight, and Hayboo focus more on UT and other Texas schools, but I'm sure they have a sprinkling of T14 people too.

As for point about how firms may value UT students, you're right. But that still makes it completely rational for a TX person to go to somewhere like UVA, since there will be less competition for TX among classmates and he won't have to have as good of grades. I had a choice between UVA and UT, and I chose UT. I am very happy with my decision and how things worked out (especially the part about me having less debt at UT). If the decision was between UT and UVA at the same cost though (for a TX person wanting to work in TX after graduation), the rational decision would be to choose UVA, unless you have special circumstances about why living in Austin is so important.

Those are fair points. But some of the firms that I have perused through the list of associates according to school where UT Law grads dominate are Jackson Walker, Lock Lorde, Andrews Kurth, and Brown McCarroll. Locke Lorde is the biggest of these three, but the number of UT Law grads that they have compared to other top law schools is ridiculous.

But all of these firms pay biglaw market rate and hardly have grads from T14 schools, but they have a ton of UT Law grads.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Can you name some biglaw firms in TX that have nothing but UT Law grads? I can think of a lit boutique that draws most of their people from Harvard and UT (Gibbs & Bruns), but lit boutiques aren't the best thing to concentrate on for this comparison since not too many people from UT or T14 schools will get the option of going there after graduation. Most of the bigname firms in Dallas and Houston take on plenty of T14 people. Maybe firms more focused on just Texas like jackson walker, Thompson Knight, and Hayboo focus more on UT and other Texas schools, but I'm sure they have a sprinkling of T14 people too.

As for point about how firms may value UT students, you're right. But that still makes it completely rational for a TX person to go to somewhere like UVA, since there will be less competition for TX among classmates and he won't have to have as good of grades. I had a choice between UVA and UT, and I chose UT. I am very happy with my decision and how things worked out (especially the part about me having less debt at UT). If the decision was between UT and UVA at the same cost though (for a TX person wanting to work in TX after graduation), the rational decision would be to choose UVA, unless you have special circumstances about why living in Austin is so important.

Those are fair points. But some of the firms that I have perused through the list of associates according to school where UT Law grads dominate are Jackson Walker, Lock Lorde, Andrews Kurth, and Brown McCarroll. Locke Lorde is the biggest of these three, but the number of UT Law grads that they have compared to other top law schools is ridiculous.

But all of these firms pay biglaw market rate and hardly have grads from T14 schools, but they have a ton of UT Law grads.

From a quick skimming of some of the Dallas associates, it looks like Locke Lorde has a fair smattering of students from law schools in and outside of Texas. I only saw one T14 person (Harvard), but saw Emory, BU, Vandy, etc. My guess is that it's self-selection to a certain extent--many T14 people coming back to Texas will be choosing places like the big three or the national firms over places like Locke Lord. I'm sure Lock Lord loves UT people, but it seems like it would be easier to get a job there coming from many different T14 schools than it would coming from UT.

[utlaw2007]

I think the main thing to come from this discussion is that Texas based firms don't really buy into prestige like east coast firms do. They seem more willing to hire from "lesser" schools fairly frequently. My main point was just to illustrate that coming from a T14 with Texas ties doesn't give you an advantage over a UT grad with similar grades. Texas biglaw firms don't split hairs like that.

V&E, Fulbright, and Baker Botts care more about prestige, although V&E in Houston has a ton of U of H grads, than most other Texas biglaw firms.

[utlaw2007]

TBF, I think you're correct in thinking that a smaller class size could increase your chances at biglaw. Most firms have large enough cutoffs that they will be giving 2L summer spots to a lot less people than those that fit within the cutoff. Thus, if a firm is used to taking around a certain amount of UT students, if hiring needs stay consistent I think a firm would probably stay around that same amount--meaning that there should be less competition among UT students for those spots. That said, I think the current 1L class size is a bit of anomaly, and the administration is hoping to get the size closer to the average of ~380 for the next class (whether they can do that without hurting their medians remains to be seen though).

Agreed.

[timeandspace11]

Any word on how the most recent graduating class performed in the job market? Does the market seem to be getting a bit better in Texas?

[Graystone]

im a TX biglaw summer associate who went to T14 up north. reduced hiring in coastal markets is pushing grads from national schools to markets they might not have considered, like texas. UT has strong regional support, but their competitive advantage seems to be eroding. they're competing with people they didn't have to compete with before. as words gets out about texas' relatively good hiring market, i expect this to continue.

[utlaw2007]

im a TX biglaw summer associate who went to T14 up north. reduced hiring in coastal markets is pushing grads from national schools to markets they might not have considered, like texas. UT has strong regional support, but their competitive advantage seems to be eroding. they're competing with people they didn't have to compete with before. as words gets out about texas' relatively good hiring market, i expect this to continue.

As I said before, it really depends on the firm. Firms that out of staters wouldn't consider are still biglaw down here. They aren't prestigious enough for these grads to pursue positions at these firms. For one, these firms don't recruit outside of Texas. I hardly see these grads taking up spots with these firms in significant numbers.


Biglaw firm hiring is largely regional across the US. There is a threshold, no doubt. But once a school exceeds that quality threshold, choosing one school over another is largely regional because it would be like splitting hairs otherwise.

[curious66]

im a TX biglaw summer associate who went to T14 up north. reduced hiring in coastal markets is pushing grads from national schools to markets they might not have considered, like texas. UT has strong regional support, but their competitive advantage seems to be eroding. they're competing with people they didn't have to compete with before. as words gets out about texas' relatively good hiring market, i expect this to continue.

Interesting that you post this. I was wondering the same thing as I debate where to attend. T14 (Michigan, Duke) vs. UT, Vandy etc. I had heard that Biglaw in TX really only likes Texas grads -- so your experience seems different than most or is it more of the norm? I do have ties to Texas which is why I'm still wondering where to go for law school.

[timeandspace11]

Thanks. I guess to make my question a little more specific, Do you think a higher percentage of this past years graduating class works at firms with over 100 attorneys compared to last years class?

[utlaw2007]

im a TX biglaw summer associate who went to T14 up north. reduced hiring in coastal markets is pushing grads from national schools to markets they might not have considered, like texas. UT has strong regional support, but their competitive advantage seems to be eroding. they're competing with people they didn't have to compete with before. as words gets out about texas' relatively good hiring market, i expect this to continue.

Interesting that you post this. I was wondering the same thing as I debate where to attend. T14 (Michigan, Duke) vs. UT, Vandy etc. I had heard that Biglaw in TX really only likes Texas grads -- so your experience seems different than most or is it more of the norm? I do have ties to Texas which is why I'm still wondering where to go for law school.

To be honest, if you have Texas ties, I don't think it would make any difference as to whether you go to UT, Duke, or Michigan. The bigger international Texas firms want diverse classes. They also recruit all across the nation. The problem is that the smaller Texas based biglaw firms mainly recruit from UT because that's the only school they go to recruit. That's because recruiting costs money. That's why most firms across the country recruit most of their associates regionally. It just costs less.

That being said, going to Michigan/Duke with Texas ties will give you an equal chance to get on with the bigger biglaw firms in Texas. It may give you a slightly better chance because most Texas grads want to stay in Texas and those bigger firms want a diverse group of associates from top schools. It just looks better to the clients. So bigger firms don't go as deep in the UT class as they would for say, Michigan's class because there are hardly any Michigan grads that want to come to Texas. But these bigger firms want a diverse group of associates from top law schools. So they have to go deeper in the class to find a Michigan grad that wants to come to Texas.

But that is the way it likely works for the bigger biglaw firms in Texas. The smaller biglaw firms in Texas don't recruit out of state much. So you will never know about them and more importantly, they will never know about you if you don't go to UT. It's these firms that are almost exclusively made up of Texas grads. They are content to recruit just UT.

[curious66]

Interesting that you post this. I was wondering the same thing as I debate where to attend. T14 (Michigan, Duke) vs. UT, Vandy etc. I had heard that Biglaw in TX really only likes Texas grads -- so your experience seems different than most or is it more of the norm? I do have ties to Texas which is why I'm still wondering where to go for law school.[/quote]

To be honest, if you have Texas ties, I don't think it would make any difference as to whether you go to UT, Duke, or Michigan. The bigger international Texas firms want diverse classes. They also recruit all across the nation. The problem is that the smaller Texas based biglaw firms mainly recruit from UT because that's the only school they go to recruit. That's because recruiting costs money. That's why most firms across the country recruit most of their associates regionally. It just costs less.

But that is the way it likely works for the bigger biglaw firms in Texas. The smaller biglaw firms in Texas don't recruit out of state much. So you will never know about them and more importantly, they will never know about you if you don't go to UT. It's these firms that are almost exclusively made up of Texas grads. They are content to recruit just UT.[/quote]

Wow thank you. This is very helpful. I have some thinking to do!

[bizzybone1313]

Is UT Austin worth it in a saturated legal market?

Your question is a fair question, though. It really depends on whether you really want to be a lawyer or not, how much do you like the work.

There's always risk to going to even great law schools. If you do poorly, you are pretty much screwed. The great thing about UT, if you are a state resident, is that it is possible to keep your debt in check. This creates more options for employment.

If you are out of state, I think the tuition is pretty crazy. It's gone up so much just since I graduated. And I graduated in 07. I don't think I would do it for 50 grand in tuition a year. So the more I think about it, your question was very fair.

I am from Texas and I was not joking. Do the math of $120K at 8% interest. I know this all depends on scholarships. But a lot of people even coming out of UT aren't going to get a good ROI. A few years ago, I knew about a half a dozen people that told me I should be real, real careful about attending UT. There is a frequent poster on jdunderground that tells people all the time that the T-20 aren't good bets.

[utlaw2007]

Is UT Austin worth it in a saturated legal market?

Your question is a fair question, though. It really depends on whether you really want to be a lawyer or not, how much do you like the work.

There's always risk to going to even great law schools. If you do poorly, you are pretty much screwed. The great thing about UT, if you are a state resident, is that it is possible to keep your debt in check. This creates more options for employment.

If you are out of state, I think the tuition is pretty crazy. It's gone up so much just since I graduated. And I graduated in 07. I don't think I would do it for 50 grand in tuition a year. So the more I think about it, your question was very fair.

I am from Texas and I was not joking. Do the math of $120K at 8% interest. I know this all depends on scholarships. But a lot of people even coming out of UT aren't going to get a good ROI. A few years ago, I knew about a half a dozen people that told me I should be real, real careful about attending UT. There is a frequent poster on jdunderground that tells people all the time that the T-20 aren't good bets.

I will agree with most except the part about lumping all t20's together. It really depends on the market the school is located in. And I would add one caveat that t20's are not good bets if you want to go biglaw ITE. But there is a legal world outside of biglaw. However, that's why it is so important to pay attention to debt. Big debt = limited career options.

Curious, did any of those people go to UT? Because a few years ago, I went there and have a totally different perspective. Of course, that was before the economy tanked. So I can't say. I'm just weary of hearsay info. It has about the same value outside the courtroom as it does in the courtroom.

[bizzybone1313]

All of these people that I referenced attended UT law. Basically, can people easily build a good career coming out of UT? I would say if most people are pulling a $70K+ salary straight out of UT that is a good outcome. People will only get raises from that point forward. But since the legal field is so unstable, does UT carry enough prestige to be able to have good exit options or be able to get a good job after being laid off?

[utlaw2007]

All of these people that I referenced attended UT law. Basically, can people easily build a good career coming out of UT? I would say if most people are pulling a $70K+ salary straight out of UT that is a good outcome. People will only get raises from that point forward. But since the legal field is so unstable, does UT carry enough prestige to be able to have good exit options or be able to get a good job after being laid off?

When I attended from 04 to 07, most grads were able to make 70k. The median was at 100k. The median for the top half was at 160k. Nowadays, I really don't know. I would think that that number has dropped to 50k when you are talking bottom the class. But that is just my guess.

The problem with those smaller firms is that you can go to Harvard or Yale and still have a hard time getting a job that pays 70k in this economy. Those sized firms want you to have experience.

UT Law degree in Texas is as good as you are going to get. There is great portability among different jobs in Texas. But it seems nowadays, you have to have something to bring to the table in terms of experience, as well. But smaller firms do cut you a little slack if you go to UT. It's just so hit or miss nowadays.

You can easily build a great legal career coming out of UT, but you have to be willing to do practice areas that you don't like for awhile just to gain experience at practicing law if you aren't biglaw eligible. But that makes you more attractive to potential law firms that may be better places to work. I've seen it happen in this economy.

If you know you want to work in Texas, I'd still recommend UT over any national school save the big three. But no matter what school you attend, you still have to make the grades. I did a doc review with a guy from Harvard. And I heard there was also a girl from Yale. And I met another one who was a supervisor on one of those projects. And he went to Stanford. I'm guessing they didn't make the grades. The main reason I'd recommend the school is that there are so many UT Law alumni here. And we are in every facet of Texas life as it relates to power or influence.

[utlaw2007]

The law school website says that they have shrunk the class size to 300. They just have 300 enrolled for the 1L class. In this economy, that is perfect. The class size is small enough for everyone to get a job with slightly more than half being eligible for biglaw, at least that is how it looks at first glance. I think that is more responsible. When I went, the slight majority of students were eligilble for big law all over the country (some areas easier than others), and we had a much larger class size. But with the smaller class size, the grads should fare much better in this economy.

So I would say if you can get into to UT with a good scholarship, you should go.

Firms at UT Law OCI always go below those cutoffs. At least they did when I was there. Don't be fooled by them.

[BigZuck]

The law school website says that they have shrunk the class size to 300. They just have 300 enrolled for the 1L class. In this economy, that is perfect. The class size is small enough for everyone to get a job with slightly more than half being eligible for biglaw, at least that is how it looks at first glance. I think that is more responsible. When I went, the slight majority of students were eligilble for big law all over the country (some areas easier than others), and we had a much larger class size. But with the smaller class size, the grads should fare much better in this economy.

So I would say if you can get into to UT with a good scholarship, you should go.

Firms at UT Law OCI always go below those cutoffs. At least they did when I was there. Don't be fooled by them.

Word on the street is they want to expand back up to like 360. I get why, but I couldn't help but be disappointed/discouraged if that's true.

[utlaw2007]

The law school website says that they have shrunk the class size to 300. They just have 300 enrolled for the 1L class. In this economy, that is perfect. The class size is small enough for everyone to get a job with slightly more than half being eligible for biglaw, at least that is how it looks at first glance. I think that is more responsible. When I went, the slight majority of students were eligilble for big law all over the country (some areas easier than others), and we had a much larger class size. But with the smaller class size, the grads should fare much better in this economy.

So I would say if you can get into to UT with a good scholarship, you should go.

Firms at UT Law OCI always go below those cutoffs. At least they did when I was there. Don't be fooled by them.

Word on the street is they want to expand back up to like 360. I get why, but I couldn't help but be disappointed/discouraged if that's true.

If they go back up to 360, that is not awful, but considering the cost of tuition, that is not a good deal as to the odds of getting a good job in this economy. 360 may be too large a class size ITE. But it is better than 400 which was the size of my class. 400 was actually a good class size in a good economy. We were fine. And that was just when they reduced the entering class size from 555. Can you imagine if it were still that large?

They need to leave it at 300.

[005618502]

I dont know if many 2/3Ls look here. But I was wondering if anyone has had Justin Driver for Con law? Also, do you guys have an exam bank of previous exams that could be used as PTs?

[Graystone]

curious 66 and utlaw2007,

Interesting perspectives here. Curious, I would recommend going to a higher ranked school out of state. utlaw2007 may be right that smaller or mid firms recruit at UT quite heavily, but 23% biglaw is not a very strong showing. Compare that to 34% at Michigan or 45% at Duke (numbers are from lawschooltransparency.com school profiles). That might not sound like too big a difference, but that's like 40-80 more students that those schools place in biglaw. There were quite a few Texas firms that interviewed at our OCI. I think going to one of those law schools would give you the flexibility of pursuing Texas biglaw in addition to other markets. The Texas market did not seem overly focused on UT students; I think it is misleading to say that they are at the front of the line. Anyone with substantive Texas ties would be able to make their case to an interviewer (I thought the DC interviews I had were the most focused on regional ties, rather than the Texas interviews ).

All that said, this is a nice problem to have. UT, Duke, and Michigan, are all very good schools.

utlaw2007,

Those salary numbers you quoted seem to have come down since 2004-7. According to LST, only the top half of UT's students reported making more than $57,000. I would see those numbers and think that's a 50-50 chance that going to UT will not pay off. (numbers from http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=texas&show=sals).

curious66, half the class is in the bottom half of the class.

[BigZuck]

curious 66 and utlaw2007,

Interesting perspectives here. Curious, I would recommend going to a higher ranked school out of state. utlaw2007 may be right that smaller or mid firms recruit at UT quite heavily, but 23% biglaw is not a very strong showing. Compare that to 34% at Michigan or 45% at Duke (numbers are from lawschooltransparency.com school profiles). That might not sound like too big a difference, but that's like 40-80 more students that those schools place in biglaw. There were quite a few Texas firms that interviewed at our OCI. I think going to one of those law schools would give you the flexibility of pursuing Texas biglaw in addition to other markets. The Texas market did not seem overly focused on UT students; I think it is misleading to say that they are at the front of the line. Anyone with substantive Texas ties would be able to make their case to an interviewer (I thought the DC interviews I had were the most focused on regional ties, rather than the Texas interviews ).

All that said, this is a nice problem to have. UT, Duke, and Michigan, are all very good schools.

utlaw2007,

Those salary numbers you quoted seem to have come down since 2004-7. According to LST, only the top half of UT's students reported making more than $57,000. I would see those numbers and think that's a 50-50 chance that going to UT will not pay off. (numbers from http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=texas&show=sals).

curious66, half the class is in the bottom half of the class.

The problem as I see it is if your best options are UT vs lower T14 then you're probably looking at a decent scholarship to UT and little at the T14. I would rather get boned and be in 100K in debt than get boned and be 200K+ in debt. Either would really, really suck but I would probably rather take the lesser of two evils when it comes to a gamble like this.

[StylinNProfilin]

The law school website says that they have shrunk the class size to 300. They just have 300 enrolled for the 1L class. In this economy, that is perfect. The class size is small enough for everyone to get a job with slightly more than half being eligible for biglaw, at least that is how it looks at first glance. I think that is more responsible. When I went, the slight majority of students were eligilble for big law all over the country (some areas easier than others), and we had a much larger class size. But with the smaller class size, the grads should fare much better in this economy.

So I would say if you can get into to UT with a good scholarship, you should go.

Firms at UT Law OCI always go below those cutoffs. At least they did when I was there. Don't be fooled by them.

Word on the street is they want to expand back up to like 360. I get why, but I couldn't help but be disappointed/discouraged if that's true.

I spoke with Dean Farnsworth at the Dallas admitted student reception and asked him about the class size. He told me to not expect it to jump back up to the level it was prior to last year due to the decrease in applicants, but he may have been just telling me what I want to hear haha

[Graystone]

more and more schools seem to be shrinking JD admissions while aggressively pursuing transfer and LLM students to make up for the difference. texas' strategy would be in line with this. i dont think it would make sense for them to enroll more 1st year JDs whose stats they have to report, when they're trying to keep their stats up.

[utlaw2007]

The law school website says that they have shrunk the class size to 300. They just have 300 enrolled for the 1L class. In this economy, that is perfect. The class size is small enough for everyone to get a job with slightly more than half being eligible for biglaw, at least that is how it looks at first glance. I think that is more responsible. When I went, the slight majority of students were eligilble for big law all over the country (some areas easier than others), and we had a much larger class size. But with the smaller class size, the grads should fare much better in this economy.

So I would say if you can get into to UT with a good scholarship, you should go.

Firms at UT Law OCI always go below those cutoffs. At least they did when I was there. Don't be fooled by them.

Word on the street is they want to expand back up to like 360. I get why, but I couldn't help but be disappointed/discouraged if that's true.

I spoke with Dean Farnsworth at the Dallas admitted student reception and asked him about the class size. He told me to not expect it to jump back up to the level it was prior to last year due to the decrease in applicants, but he may have been just telling me what I want to hear haha

I would take him at his word. He's a great guy. I've exchanged emails with him and I met him in person at the UT Law alumni Houston reception.

As far as Texas ties go, it really depends on the firm. The larger more nationally recognized firms aren't going to care about Texas ties so much, the smaller biglaw firms are going to care about Texas ties a bunch. And the midlaw firms will even care about ties to a particular city in Texas. I was shot down at one of these midlaw firms because I was from Houston as they were in Dallas. They wanted me to have ties to Dallas. I didn't. And therefore, did not get the job.