LSAT correlation to GRADES

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sconnielaw13
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Re: LSAT correlation to GRADES

Postby sconnielaw13 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:42 am

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Last edited by sconnielaw13 on Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jimmythecatdied6
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Re: LSAT correlation to GRADES

Postby jimmythecatdied6 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:47 am

"Haha I know what you're getting at. I'm just a 0L so I can't pretend to have any expert knowledge about law school; however, it seems intuitive to me that the person who reads faster will have more time contemplate the material (cases, supplements, hornbooks). Obviously, this won't be much of an advantage with the 3 vs 4 minute reading time that you examples above, but my experience is that the reading speed gulf between the top 25% and bottom 25% in my classes was extreme. Still, might not make a huge difference in a class with tight score bands."

Having the ability to "digest" material quicker is irrelevant when you consider the fact that you are digesting the material over the course of a semester. Individuals that lack the ability to "digest" as quickly as others can easily compensate by doing more work. The only time that comprehending more quickly than others will benefit you is during an exam, and I've yet to see an exam fact pattern that is as dense/long as any reading comp section. IMO - when you're in the 165+ range, how well you did on RC is the least predictive in terms of how successful you'll be in law school.

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Nova
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Re: LSAT correlation to GRADES

Postby Nova » Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:56 am

Jimmythecatdied6 wrote:Having the ability to "digest" material quicker is irrelevant when you consider the fact that you are digesting the material over the course of a semester. Individuals that lack the ability to "digest" as quickly as others can easily compensate by doing more work. The only time that comprehending more quickly than others will benefit you is during an exam, and I've yet to see an exam fact pattern that is as dense/long as any reading comp section. IMO - when you're in the 165+ range, how well you did on RC is the least predictive in terms of how successful you'll be in law school.


I hope you are right. I missed 12 on RC and 6 on the rest of the test (167).

FlanSolo
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Re: LSAT correlation to GRADES

Postby FlanSolo » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:23 am

Nova wrote:
Jimmythecatdied6 wrote:Having the ability to "digest" material quicker is irrelevant when you consider the fact that you are digesting the material over the course of a semester. Individuals that lack the ability to "digest" as quickly as others can easily compensate by doing more work. The only time that comprehending more quickly than others will benefit you is during an exam, and I've yet to see an exam fact pattern that is as dense/long as any reading comp section. IMO - when you're in the 165+ range, how well you did on RC is the least predictive in terms of how successful you'll be in law school.


I hope you are right. I missed 12 on RC and 6 on the rest of the test (167).


I mean, I wouldn't worry about it just because I don't think there's any correlation between the LSAT and grades for the vast majority of non-outlier students. The difference between most LSAT scores at a given school is a bad vs. good day, momentary lapse of concentration, etc. Not the kind of thing that's going to make or break anyone's career.

That said, I disagree that reading comprehension and speed, in general, is unimportant. The most powerful constraint you have as a law student is time, so to the extent you can minimize reading/"digestion," that's an advantage, because it's time you can spend on outlining, practice tests, etc. Further, while most exam hypos aren't as dense as an LSAT RC section, I've had a couple that are ludicrously long and paired with statutes we haven't seen before. There's no question that a little extra time will help, because the difference in scores on most exams is probably not as wide as their actual effect on employment outcomes. (The counterargument to this is that your prowess on LG and LR gives you some advantage that other students are lacking, so it all comes out in the wash anyway.)

005618502
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Re: LSAT correlation to GRADES

Postby 005618502 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:32 am

Nova wrote:
Jimmythecatdied6 wrote:Having the ability to "digest" material quicker is irrelevant when you consider the fact that you are digesting the material over the course of a semester. Individuals that lack the ability to "digest" as quickly as others can easily compensate by doing more work. The only time that comprehending more quickly than others will benefit you is during an exam, and I've yet to see an exam fact pattern that is as dense/long as any reading comp section. IMO - when you're in the 165+ range, how well you did on RC is the least predictive in terms of how successful you'll be in law school.


I hope you are right. I missed 12 on RC and 6 on the rest of the test (167).


Wow, I missed 14 on RC and 5 on rest (if I remember correctly). I did worse on RC than on my diagnostic RC lol

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hume85
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Re: LSAT correlation to GRADES

Postby hume85 » Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:27 pm

Anyone other than 0Ls want to answer?

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notedgarfigaro
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Re: LSAT correlation to GRADES

Postby notedgarfigaro » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:46 am

vlienj24 wrote:Bottom 25% LSAT; top 75% UGPA = Top 25% law school class.

I my opinion the LSAT is worthless. I didn't have the cash to raise my score like some other people I know. I know people that have went from around a 160 to above a 170 after taking a class. Therefore, I would imagine there are people like me who couldn't take a class and didn't reach their maximum potential but still fair pretty well in law school.

It is also worth noting that I was practice testing consistently above my schools 75% but just couldn't make it happen on test day.


Were you top 25% after 1st year? Because LSAT scores correlate best with 1L grades (which is logical, b/c 1L grades are much more standardized compared to 2L and beyond grades).

Speaking from my personal anecdotal experience (like yourself), my LSAT score pretty much predicted where I ended up after my first year. Hey, maybe I'm just the exception that proves your "the LSAT is worthless" point. But then again, I got my score purely on self-study while working 2 jobs. So maybe not.

dunkin
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Re: LSAT correlation to GRADES

Postby dunkin » Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:27 am

Also speaking from my anecdotal experience, I was in the top range of my class's GPA but definitely in the extreme lower end of its LSAT distribution. Top third after 1L year at a T50. Not amazing, but much higher than my LSAT would suggest.

mdfreeman
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Re: LSAT correlation to GRADES

Postby mdfreeman » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:31 pm

I was near/below my 1L school's 25% LSAT score and I made top 10% of my T30 class.

LSAT is like a 5K. 1L is like a marathon. Study smart, work hard, and keep in mind that it's a long race and you can succeed.

LSAT generally does a good job of testing legal reasoning skills but not really your ability to work hard or organize information efficiently/effectively.

letsdoit
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Re: LSAT correlation to GRADES

Postby letsdoit » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:38 pm

hibiki wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:
I am curious to know if people know many people who are in the bottom 25% LSAT at their school but end at top of the class


I would wager quite a few. Considering that the LSAT is meant to be correlate with the entire range of scores, most students at the same school are in a near dead heat. I don't see how anyone could feel comfortable picking one student to succeed over another.


I was just a touch below the 25%ile for my school but am somewhere in the top quarter.

canesfan1986
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Re: LSAT correlation to GRADES

Postby canesfan1986 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:38 pm

I'm #1 at a 60s-ranked school. I'll say this about everyone's thoughts on RC: I don't think how you do on the LSAT RC singles you out as being likely to do better or worse than anyone else.

I went in at the 75th% for my school's LSAT. Median GPA. I missed about 12-14 RC questions (don't remember; it was two years ago). Missed 13-15 on the rest of the test. Not stunning, but you get the point. I did about 7 points lower than my average PT. Honestly, I found the LSAT RC much more difficult than a LS exam's RC. I mean, I think on a LS exam you can generally understand what has transpired in the hypo, but the KEY is the analysis that you do with those facts. With practice, you'll know what issues you need to be looking for and how to analyze them.

You want to do well in LS? Here is the key: work hard and figure out what is important and what isn't. Then, do PTs. You also need to have a life. If anyone wants to PM me with questions, feel free. I remember what it was like to be a 0L too.

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PaulKriske
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Re: LSAT correlation to GRADES

Postby PaulKriske » Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:52 pm

vlienj24 wrote:Bottom 25% LSAT; top 75% UGPA = Top 25% law school class.

I my opinion the LSAT is worthless. I didn't have the cash to raise my score like some other people I know. I know people that have went from around a 160 to above a 170 after taking a class. Therefore, I would imagine there are people like me who couldn't take a class and didn't reach their maximum potential but still fair pretty well in law school.

It is also worth noting that I was practice testing consistently above my schools 75% but just couldn't make it happen on test day.



you don't need a class to hit 170+.

give me a break with this nonsense.

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Ohiobumpkin
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Re: LSAT correlation to GRADES

Postby Ohiobumpkin » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:09 pm

DC_Patent_Law wrote:LOL, I'll go with A.

Wormfather wrote:
Ohiobumpkin wrote:I would predict that person 2 would do better in law school because RC is probably a more important skill than AR. Having trouble with RC is pretty bad news bears in law school. That being said, I believe if I remember correctly, the LSAT has a predictive value of .41 for your first year law school GPA, while your UGGPA has a predictive value of .09 (or something comparatively low). So the prospect that somebody scored on the LSAT at the 25% at their LS class and ended up at the top of their class is certainly possible.

I think part of the problem with the predictive value of both the LSAT and UGGPA is the fact that so many variables exist that influence one's first year LS GPA. What section were you in (consequently, the professors you took)? Did you have relationship or social issues? State of mind coming into law school (sane or bat shit crazy :p )? How quickly did you "get" law school work? You get the picture.

Until I get my grades back and compare them with my LS comrades, I will assume all of them are 4.0 UGGPA and 180 LSAT score holders. It will keep me motivated to rack my brain day in and day out for three and half months twice a year for three years.


Ohiobumpkin's feelings towards LSAT reading comprehension can best be described as which of the following?

A. Resigned Acceptance
B. Plausible Resignation
C. Academic Ambivalence
D. Evenhanded Acceptance
E. Unbridled Enthusiasm

You have 30 seconds to decide.


I think D seems to describe my feelings the best. B would be my second choice.




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