Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

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barestin
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Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby barestin » Sun May 27, 2012 10:45 pm

A friend told me about TLS and I wish I discovered this website before I started applying to law school. I go to a TTT in California and I just found out I will be keeping a large scholarship because of my 1L grades. I have relatives that are nice enough to let me live with them until I graduate, so my expected debt post-graduation is only going to be about $50K. I expect to graduate at least in the top third of my class and have made some good lawyer contacts in the past year and even have a federal judicial internship in the city I go to school in for the summer. Considering these circumstances, should I continue with law school or should I just drop out now with less than $10K in debt? If you think staying is the way to go, what are my post-graduation employment prospects if I network like crazy until I graduate? It seems the general consensus on these boards is that unless you are going to a T1 school in this economy, law school is not worth it. I have wanted to be a lawyer since college and don't really have any other options lined up if I drop out. All I would really have is a worthless BA in Sociology and no work experience. Thanks!

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Mr. Pancakes
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby Mr. Pancakes » Sun May 27, 2012 10:51 pm

It seems as though you should have asked these questions before law school.

edit: I would like to apologize for my dickish tone, but I just find it confusing.
Last edited by Mr. Pancakes on Sun May 27, 2012 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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pinkcamellia
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby pinkcamellia » Sun May 27, 2012 10:51 pm

Doesn't sound like you're spending too much money, and that federal internship is a great start. If you feel like you will have job prospects and little debt, and you want to be a lawyer, I see no reason to drop out.

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pinkcamellia
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby pinkcamellia » Sun May 27, 2012 10:53 pm

Mr. Pancakes wrote:It seems as though you should have asked these questions before law school.


He/She basically admitted that when they said they wished they'd found this site. Let it go.

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lisjjen
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby lisjjen » Sun May 27, 2012 10:56 pm

Under the one circumstance of you attending a TTT, yes. Just kidding, I had that retort loaded and ready to go as soon as I saw the headline.

But if you like it, and you can move forward with it career-wise, I don't see the harm. But that is assuming you actually like it. Why in particular did you ask if you should drop out?

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dingbat
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby dingbat » Sun May 27, 2012 11:07 pm

Excluding your choice of law school, you've done everything right
You have good grades, made contacts and will be interning for a judge
Most impirtantly You will graduate with a relatively small amount of debt.

Even the worst TTT has some successful graduates every year - be that positive statistic.
You can realistically end up with a job that can service that debt, so go for it.
Better to be in your shoes than at a T1 at sticker (looking at a quarter million dollars of debt)

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barestin
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby barestin » Sun May 27, 2012 11:11 pm

lisjjen wrote:Under the one circumstance of you attending a TTT, yes. Just kidding, I had that retort loaded and ready to go as soon as I saw the headline.

But if you like it, and you can move forward with it career-wise, I don't see the harm. But that is assuming you actually like it. Why in particular did you ask if you should drop out?


In all honesty, it would have taken me losing my scholarship to FULLY persuade me to drop out. However, since discovering this website a few months ago, it seems like everyone on here thinks a TTT/TTTT is a road to failure unless you are at/near the top of your class and/or on a full ride with great connections (neither apply to me). Law is what I want to practice, and I am sure that I won't starve with minimal debt post-graduation and, hopefully, a mid-range five figure salary starting out. Then again, I want to know if this expectation is even viable in the opinions of the regulars here on TLS. I certainly don't want to waste two more years of my life in law school if this is not a reasonable expectation.

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Nova
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby Nova » Sun May 27, 2012 11:13 pm

At least you're above the median.

Go here, --LinkRemoved-- , and look up your TTT. You can see what percent of the class of 2010 actually has full time legal employment.
Last edited by Nova on Sun May 27, 2012 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dingbat
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby dingbat » Sun May 27, 2012 11:14 pm

Without knowing the school, based on your track record wonder, it is a reasonable expectation, but it is not guaranteed and you can't start slacking

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barestin
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby barestin » Sun May 27, 2012 11:16 pm

dingbat wrote:Excluding your choice of law school, you've done everything right
You have good grades, made contacts and will be interning for a judge
Most impirtantly You will graduate with a relatively small amount of debt.

Even the worst TTT has some successful graduates every year - be that positive statistic.
You can realistically end up with a job that can service that debt, so go for it.
Better to be in your shoes than at a T1 at sticker (looking at a quarter million dollars of debt)


Thanks for sharing and my thoughts exactly on paying full price for a T1 school and having all that haunting debt to think about. What do you mean "end up with a job that can service that debt?" I know I won't be making close to six figures starting out, but then again I want to know what is realistic for a civil practice associate coming out of a TTT school in the top third of their class. Thanks!

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lisjjen
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby lisjjen » Sun May 27, 2012 11:16 pm

barestin wrote:
lisjjen wrote:Under the one circumstance of you attending a TTT, yes. Just kidding, I had that retort loaded and ready to go as soon as I saw the headline.

But if you like it, and you can move forward with it career-wise, I don't see the harm. But that is assuming you actually like it. Why in particular did you ask if you should drop out?


In all honesty, it would have taken me losing my scholarship to FULLY persuade me to drop out. However, since discovering this website a few months ago, it seems like everyone on here thinks a TTT/TTTT is a road to failure unless you are at/near the top of your class and/or on a full ride with great connections (neither apply to me). Law is what I want to practice, and I am sure that I won't starve with minimal debt post-graduation and, hopefully, a mid-range five figure salary starting out. Then again, I want to know if this expectation is even viable in the opinions of the regulars here on TLS. I certainly don't want to waste two more years of my life in law school if this is not a reasonable expectation.


Given what you just told me, keep on keeping on. People act like Rule #1 around here is only attend a T14 or else you are developmentally challenged. Rule #1 is actually to ignore the people who hold to the previous rule - they're all 0Ls who are used to benefiting from grade inflation and how smart they look relative to the frat kids who are sleeping through survey courses. Like the previous poster said, "be that statistic."

At the end of the day, if you are an asset to a firm, they will do what they have to do to keep you. /thread

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bk1
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby bk1 » Sun May 27, 2012 11:20 pm

pinkcamellia wrote:Doesn't sound like you're spending too much money, and that federal internship is a great start. If you feel like you will have job prospects and little debt, and you want to be a lawyer, I see no reason to drop out.


I generally agree with this.

But I will add one caveat: CA TTT's are especially toxic. Schools like USF only place about 1/3 of their graduating class into full time, bar passage required jobs. This doesn't even count how many are temporary or school-funded. I agree with pink and think you should stay, but things are markedly worse at CA TTT's than they are at TTT's in other places.

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lisjjen
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby lisjjen » Sun May 27, 2012 11:22 pm

bk1 wrote:things are markedly worse at CA TTT's than they are at TTT's in other places.


I can't think of a place where there is stiffer competition for lawyers. Beyond Stanford, Cal, UCLA, USC, UCI, UC Hastings, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, you also have a thousand little non-accredited schools.

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dingbat
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby dingbat » Sun May 27, 2012 11:27 pm

bk1 wrote:
pinkcamellia wrote:Doesn't sound like you're spending too much money, and that federal internship is a great start. If you feel like you will have job prospects and little debt, and you want to be a lawyer, I see no reason to drop out.


I generally agree with this.

But I will add one caveat: CA TTT's are especially toxic. Schools like USF only place about 1/3 of their graduating class into full time, bar passage required jobs. This doesn't even count how many are temporary or school-funded. I agree with pink and think you should stay, but things are markedly worse at CA TTT's than they are at TTT's in other places.

NY is pretty bad too - there are TTTs with 2 out of 7 unemployed (not including underemployed or part-time)
I'd say thè bigger the market the worse the TTTs

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lisjjen
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby lisjjen » Sun May 27, 2012 11:29 pm

dingbat wrote:I'd say thè bigger the market the worse the TTTs


This is very true for TX. SMU and University of Houston can be a good choice, but after that holy hell does it start looking rough.

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Dr. Review
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby Dr. Review » Mon May 28, 2012 1:23 am

Nova wrote:At least you're above the median.

Go here, --LinkRemoved-- , and look up your TTT. You can see what percent of the class of 2010 actually has full time legal employment.


http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/

FTFY

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barestin
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby barestin » Mon May 28, 2012 1:28 pm

Thank you everyone for your input. My tentative decision to stay put has been reinforced by your feedback and I know I have to keep working hard to graduate as close to the top of my class as possible. An interesting point was made that it may be better to go to a local TTT/TTTT school on a really generous scholarship rather than going to a Tier 1 school at sticker price and graduating with over $250K in debt. The reality is that those at the Tier 1 who do not graduate near the top are going to have a very difficult time cracking six figures out of law school and those graduating at the TTT/TTTT above median will likely not be earning significantly less then the person who has $250K in debt to pay off.

tomwatts
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby tomwatts » Mon May 28, 2012 7:10 pm

barestin wrote:My tentative decision to stay put has been reinforced by your feedback and I know I have to keep working hard to graduate as close to the top of my class as possible.

I'm a little late to the party, but this is probably the right idea. As someone above noted, there are always a few successful people from even the worst law schools. You have to be near the top of your class and work really hard on getting good summer experiences on your resume, but it's possible, and if you do well for a few years in your first job out of law school, you can move up.

There's nothing inherently wrong with a lower-tier law school. You just have to be really careful that you do well and position yourself properly career-wise. If you don't, you can end up with a load of debt and not much ability to pay it off. Even 50K is rough if you let the interest pile up for some time while you look for a job. This doesn't sound as though it will be an issue for you, though.

But yeah, if you'd lost your scholarship, that's when it would've been time to get the heck out.

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PDaddy
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby PDaddy » Mon May 28, 2012 7:32 pm

Are these "contacts" likely to lead to a decent job? That is literally the $100,000 question.

$50K debt plus low interest upon graduation is very managable if you come out with a law job, even if it's at a boutique firm or elsewhere. If you can make at least $50,000+ per year, you will be fine. A good rule of thumb is to try and garner a job with a yearly salary that equals or exceeds your graduating debt, and live in a low cost area. If you are doing well enough to land in the top-1/3 of the class and have a supportive family and good legal contacts, I see little reason to quit. Yes, you could be doing other, less risky and potentially more profitable things; but your law degree will still be a thing of prestige if you can find a way to make it work for you.

09042014
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby 09042014 » Mon May 28, 2012 8:39 pm

If you don't mind working in shitlaw, 50K should be manageable. That's what 700-800 bucks a month on a ten year loan repayment plan?

LOLyer
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby LOLyer » Mon May 28, 2012 9:50 pm

TTT's receive entirely too much bashing around here. I suspect it's at least partially because people at ritzy private schools feel entitled to the jobs and prestige in this overcrowded profession simply because they are paying $50k a year, while the guy at state public school is only paying $5k a year.

The ranking fetish around here is just that: an irrational fixation. Rankings are determined by the success of the students, not the other way around. Good lawyers = high ranking; not high ranking = good lawyers.

"In this economy, you can't afford to go to a low ranked school."

No, in this economy you can't afford mounds of debt. If you mean business, take your scholarship to that TTT, get on law review and make stuff happen for yourself.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby rickgrimes69 » Tue May 29, 2012 11:21 am

LOLyer wrote:TTT's receive entirely too much bashing around here. I suspect it's at least partially because people at ritzy private schools feel entitled to the jobs and prestige in this overcrowded profession simply because they are paying $50k a year, while the guy at state public school is only paying $5k a year.

The ranking fetish around here is just that: an irrational fixation. Rankings are determined by the success of the students, not the other way around. Good lawyers = high ranking; not high ranking = good lawyers.


LOL

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North
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby North » Tue May 29, 2012 11:32 am

rickgrimes69 wrote:
LOLyer wrote:TTT's receive entirely too much bashing around here. I suspect it's at least partially because people at ritzy private schools feel entitled to the jobs and prestige in this overcrowded profession simply because they are paying $50k a year, while the guy at state public school is only paying $5k a year.

The ranking fetish around here is just that: an irrational fixation. Rankings are determined by the success of the students, not the other way around. Good lawyers = high ranking; not high ranking = good lawyers.


LOL

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mattviphky
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby mattviphky » Tue May 29, 2012 1:12 pm

LOLyer wrote:TTT's receive entirely too much bashing around here. I suspect it's at least partially because people at ritzy private schools feel entitled to the jobs and prestige in this overcrowded profession simply because they are paying $50k a year, while the guy at state public school is only paying $5k a year.

The ranking fetish around here is just that: an irrational fixation. Rankings are determined by the success of the students, not the other way around. Good lawyers = high ranking; not high ranking = good lawyers.

"In this economy, you can't afford to go to a low ranked school."

No, in this economy you can't afford mounds of debt. If you mean business, take your scholarship to that TTT, get on law review and make stuff happen for yourself.


Low ranked state schools probably take the least amount of bashing, because these schools are typically in insular, low COL areas, low tuition, and have little in the way of competition. SIU, North Dakota, etc, never receive the amount of bashing that the private TTT/Ts take. Think Cooley, NYLS, Florida Coastal, etc. You're attacking a problem that doesn't really exist.

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sunynp
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Re: Should I drop out of my TTT under these circumstances?

Postby sunynp » Tue May 29, 2012 1:22 pm

LOLyer wrote:TTT's receive entirely too much bashing around here. I suspect it's at least partially because people at ritzy private schools feel entitled to the jobs and prestige in this overcrowded profession simply because they are paying $50k a year, while the guy at state public school is only paying $5k a year.

The ranking fetish around here is just that: an irrational fixation. Rankings are determined by the success of the students, not the other way around. Good lawyers = high ranking; not high ranking = good lawyers.

"In this economy, you can't afford to go to a low ranked school."

No, in this economy you can't afford mounds of debt. If you mean business, take your scholarship to that TTT, get on law review and make stuff happen for yourself.

Yes that plan works great for everyone. No question that everybody will get on law review and have great grades despite the mandatory curve!

OP- I guess transferring is not an option. You need to understand the reasoning behind people advising T14. In short, it has to do with the best odds of job placement at median or even lower. There is no way to predict your law school grades due to the curve.




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