Florida law schools?

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Geon
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Florida law schools?

Postby Geon » Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:57 pm

I am just looking at the rankings of law schools, since Florida is a major state with lots of people and many big cities why does it appear that Florida law school rank so poorly and why do there not appear to be many well paying law gigs for them (at least in comparasion to equally big states). Ie. Florida has as much people as New York and 7million more than illionois yet North Western, Chicago, U illinois all seem to do better locally than Florida law grads, even smaller southern places like Alabama and Georgia (emory and georgia) do far better than the best Florida law school. Am I missing something? It doesn't make sense to me how people in places like Iowa, Indiana, or Minnesota have more better paying job opportunities than the fourth largest state? One would think that Florida would have at least 1 school in the top 20, with grads who make into the top firms in state. I don't quiet get whats going on there?

northerniowan
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Re: Florida law schools?

Postby northerniowan » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:10 pm

Interesting question. I'm tagging this just so I'll remember to come back and see what people have to say. I'm curious.

curiousnole
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Re: Florida law schools?

Postby curiousnole » Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:57 pm

I talked to one of the UF law professors about this. They said it was due in large part to the different nature of our economy here. So much of our economy is based off of tourism, rather than other forms of big business like a lot of other places.

duckmoney
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Re: Florida law schools?

Postby duckmoney » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:05 pm

After the top 14 - 17 schools, all lower ranked schools are regional. Their job placement statistics are basically a function of the health the total legal market in their region, their reputation within that region, and the competition from national schools, superregional schools, and other regional schools.

Florida has a very weak legal market because it doesn't have a lot of big business. Most of its growth over the past decade was in real estate and construction, and that all died in 2008. So there are many fewer law firms hiring in Florida. There are also lots of law schools in Florida, and Florida, FSU, and Miami aren't really as significantly better or worse than others in terms of prestige and student quality.

Florida is also a very populous state, despite its lack of business, so it produces a lot of students who eventually go off to top law schools. When they apply to firms in their home town, they usually get the edge over a local school grad because their schools are viewed as higher quality and more prestigious.

So when you add these things up Florida ends up with mediocre law schools that don't do very well in a down economy.

If you want to practice in Florida biglaw, you really need to go to a T14 school or Vandy. Or go to UF / FSU / Miami and get amazing grades. But that's much harder than getting into a T14.

envisciguy
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Re: Florida law schools?

Postby envisciguy » Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:23 pm

duckmoney wrote:After the top 14 - 17 schools, all lower ranked schools are regional. Their job placement statistics are basically a function of the health the total legal market in their region, their reputation within that region, and the competition from national schools, superregional schools, and other regional schools.

Florida has a very weak legal market because it doesn't have a lot of big business. Most of its growth over the past decade was in real estate and construction, and that all died in 2008. So there are many fewer law firms hiring in Florida. There are also lots of law schools in Florida, and Florida, FSU, and Miami aren't really as significantly better or worse than others in terms of prestige and student quality.

Florida is also a very populous state, despite its lack of business, so it produces a lot of students who eventually go off to top law schools. When they apply to firms in their home town, they usually get the edge over a local school grad because their schools are viewed as higher quality and more prestigious.

So when you add these things up Florida ends up with mediocre law schools that don't do very well in a down economy.

If you want to practice in Florida biglaw, you really need to go to a T14 school or Vandy. Or go to UF / FSU / Miami and get amazing grades. But that's much harder than getting into a T14.


Almost everything you said sounds right, but I have to disagree with the bolded. There's 11 schools in FL and once you pass UF and FSU it goes down hill pretty quickly. Miami is a solid 3rd (especially for south Florida), but there is most definitely a difference in both quality of student and prestige within FL when considering the top 3 versus FIU/Florida Coastal/Nova, etc.

duckmoney
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Re: Florida law schools?

Postby duckmoney » Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:26 pm

envisciguy wrote:
duckmoney wrote:After the top 14 - 17 schools, all lower ranked schools are regional. Their job placement statistics are basically a function of the health the total legal market in their region, their reputation within that region, and the competition from national schools, superregional schools, and other regional schools.

Florida has a very weak legal market because it doesn't have a lot of big business. Most of its growth over the past decade was in real estate and construction, and that all died in 2008. So there are many fewer law firms hiring in Florida. There are also lots of law schools in Florida, and Florida, FSU, and Miami aren't really as significantly better or worse than others in terms of prestige and student quality.

Florida is also a very populous state, despite its lack of business, so it produces a lot of students who eventually go off to top law schools. When they apply to firms in their home town, they usually get the edge over a local school grad because their schools are viewed as higher quality and more prestigious.

So when you add these things up Florida ends up with mediocre law schools that don't do very well in a down economy.

If you want to practice in Florida biglaw, you really need to go to a T14 school or Vandy. Or go to UF / FSU / Miami and get amazing grades. But that's much harder than getting into a T14.


Almost everything you said sounds right, but I have to disagree with the bolded. There's 11 schools in FL and once you pass UF and FSU it goes down hill pretty quickly. Miami is a solid 3rd (especially for south Florida), but there is most definitely a difference in both quality of student and prestige within FL when considering the top 3 versus FIU/Florida Coastal/Nova, etc.


I misspoke. I should have said that they aren't significantly better or worse than each other. You're right; those 3 are noticeably better than any other school in the state.

UF>FSU>Miami >>>>>> Stetson>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everything Else

envisciguy
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Re: Florida law schools?

Postby envisciguy » Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:29 pm

Ah, ok. That makes a lot more sense if I read it that way.

Just to add to the view of Florida schools - as someone who goes to one of the big 3 FL schools for undergrad and considered them for law school - FSU and UF aren't bad choices. However, I think they really only make sense if you're a resident and get the resident rate. Then you have relatively low debt and decent placement in FL. What doesn't make any sense would be choosing Miami at close to twice the price of those two.

So, I wouldn't suggest to any out of state students to come to FL to go to a FL law school for all the same reasons duckmoney stated.

Geon
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Re: Florida law schools?

Postby Geon » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:01 am

duckmoney wrote:After the top 14 - 17 schools, all lower ranked schools are regional. Their job placement statistics are basically a function of the health the total legal market in their region, their reputation within that region, and the competition from national schools, superregional schools, and other regional schools.

Florida has a very weak legal market because it doesn't have a lot of big business. Most of its growth over the past decade was in real estate and construction, and that all died in 2008. So there are many fewer law firms hiring in Florida. There are also lots of law schools in Florida, and Florida, FSU, and Miami aren't really as significantly better or worse than others in terms of prestige and student quality.

Florida is also a very populous state, despite its lack of business, so it produces a lot of students who eventually go off to top law schools. When they apply to firms in their home town, they usually get the edge over a local school grad because their schools are viewed as higher quality and more prestigious.

So when you add these things up Florida ends up with mediocre law schools that don't do very well in a down economy.

If you want to practice in Florida biglaw, you really need to go to a T14 school or Vandy. Or go to UF / FSU / Miami and get amazing grades. But that's much harder than getting into a T14.


Interesting, its rather strange though.
I have some questions:

I understand the bad economy hit Florida extra hard, but even pre-recession a school like Tulane in smaller Louisana was much better and not really a bad choice from a $ perspective.

-If Florida grads are going to t-14 schools, but all the major firms are near the t-14 markets (northeast, cali, mid atlantic and texas) then why would they bother to come back to Florida?
-I'm not sure if there are lots of law schools in Florida, I saw 3 in top 100, and there are probably more ttt, and t4. But, when you consider its almost the 3rd largest state (soon will pass NY as in next 5 years or less soon), I can't see it as being really overstacked with schools.
-Nope, i doubt I'd ever practice in Florida, tbh I hate hot weather.

rad lulz
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Re: Florida law schools?

Postby rad lulz » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:05 am

Geon wrote:-If Florida grads are going to t-14 schools, but all the major firms are near the t-14 markets (northeast, cali, mid atlantic and texas) then why would they bother to come back to Florida?


It's a nice place to live, and apparently, not everyone wants to chase the PREFTIGE as much as you.

-I'm not sure if there are lots of law schools in Florida, I saw 3 in top 100, and there are probably more ttt, and t4. But, when you consider its almost the 3rd largest state (soon will pass NY as in next 5 years or less soon), I can't see it as being really overstacked with schools.

There are 11. Soon to be 12 with Cooley.

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tedalbany
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Re: Florida law schools?

Postby tedalbany » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:26 am

rad lulz wrote:
-I'm not sure if there are lots of law schools in Florida, I saw 3 in top 100, and there are probably more ttt, and t4. But, when you consider its almost the 3rd largest state (soon will pass NY as in next 5 years or less soon), I can't see it as being really overstacked with schools.

There are 11. Soon to be 12 with Cooley.


And last time I checked there were double digit SAs available in FL. It certainly is overstacked relative to the size of its legal market.

Geon
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Re: Florida law schools?

Postby Geon » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:29 am

rad lulz wrote:
Geon wrote:-If Florida grads are going to t-14 schools, but all the major firms are near the t-14 markets (northeast, cali, mid atlantic and texas) then why would they bother to come back to Florida?


It's a nice place to live, and apparently, not everyone wants to chase the PREFTIGE as much as you.

-I'm not sure if there are lots of law schools in Florida, I saw 3 in top 100, and there are probably more ttt, and t4. But, when you consider its almost the 3rd largest state (soon will pass NY as in next 5 years or less soon), I can't see it as being really overstacked with schools.

There are 11. Soon to be 12 with Cooley.


Well most people who go to t-14 law, want to do big law or clerk (as a path to big law) followed by public interest. So its not even about me and prestige, I just don't see why someone would pay big school money out of state to come back in-state.

whats double digit SAs?

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tedalbany
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Re: Florida law schools?

Postby tedalbany » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:32 am

Geon wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Geon wrote:-If Florida grads are going to t-14 schools, but all the major firms are near the t-14 markets (northeast, cali, mid atlantic and texas) then why would they bother to come back to Florida?


It's a nice place to live, and apparently, not everyone wants to chase the PREFTIGE as much as you.

-I'm not sure if there are lots of law schools in Florida, I saw 3 in top 100, and there are probably more ttt, and t4. But, when you consider its almost the 3rd largest state (soon will pass NY as in next 5 years or less soon), I can't see it as being really overstacked with schools.

There are 11. Soon to be 12 with Cooley.


Well most people who go to t-14 law, want to do big law or clerk (as a path to big law) followed by public interest. So its not even about me and prestige, I just don't see why someone would pay big school money out of state to come back in-state.

whats double digit SAs?


<100 Summer Associate positions with NALP law firms (compared to thousands in NY or CA).

And if someone knows they want FL then it probably is in their best interest to go to UF with $$ over T14. If you go to school out of state you'll get lots of "why no UF?" in interviews.

rad lulz
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Re: Florida law schools?

Postby rad lulz » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:34 am

tedalbany wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
-I'm not sure if there are lots of law schools in Florida, I saw 3 in top 100, and there are probably more ttt, and t4. But, when you consider its almost the 3rd largest state (soon will pass NY as in next 5 years or less soon), I can't see it as being really overstacked with schools.

There are 11. Soon to be 12 with Cooley.


And last time I checked there were double digit SAs available in FL. It certainly is overstacked relative to the size of its legal market.

I'd estimate that there's like 130-150. 50-60 in Miami, 25 in Tampa, about similar in Jax, 20-25 in Orlando, and probably some other ones scattered around the state.

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kwais
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Re: Florida law schools?

Postby kwais » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:35 am

tedalbany wrote:
Geon wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Geon wrote:-If Florida grads are going to t-14 schools, but all the major firms are near the t-14 markets (northeast, cali, mid atlantic and texas) then why would they bother to come back to Florida?


It's a nice place to live, and apparently, not everyone wants to chase the PREFTIGE as much as you.

-I'm not sure if there are lots of law schools in Florida, I saw 3 in top 100, and there are probably more ttt, and t4. But, when you consider its almost the 3rd largest state (soon will pass NY as in next 5 years or less soon), I can't see it as being really overstacked with schools.

There are 11. Soon to be 12 with Cooley.


Well most people who go to t-14 law, want to do big law or clerk (as a path to big law) followed by public interest. So its not even about me and prestige, I just don't see why someone would pay big school money out of state to come back in-state.

whats double digit SAs?


<100 Summer Associate positions with NALP law firms (compared to thousands in NY or CA).

And if someone knows they want FL then it probably is in their best interest to go to UF with $$ over T14. If you go to school out of state you'll get lots of "why no UF?" in interviews.


I don't think this is right. Unless maybe top%10 at UF, T14 is better for Florida and you don't have to explain your choice

rad lulz
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Re: Florida law schools?

Postby rad lulz » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:37 am

tedalbany wrote:<100 Summer Associate positions with NALP law firms (compared to thousands in NY or CA).

And if someone knows they want FL then it probably is in their best interest to go to UF with $$ over T14. If you go to school out of state you'll get lots of "why no UF?" in interviews.

If you have ties, I'd go to the T14+Vandy (for the right price) any day over UF with money for FL big firms.

rad lulz
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Re: Florida law schools?

Postby rad lulz » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:38 am

kwais wrote:
I don't think this is right. Unless maybe top%10 at UF, T14 is better for Florida and you don't have to explain your choice

You have to explain your choice, but if your ties are solid, they'll believe you.

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tedalbany
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Re: Florida law schools?

Postby tedalbany » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:40 am

rad lulz wrote:
tedalbany wrote:<100 Summer Associate positions with NALP law firms (compared to thousands in NY or CA).

And if someone knows they want FL then it probably is in their best interest to go to UF with $$ over T14. If you go to school out of state you'll get lots of "why no UF?" in interviews.

If you have ties, I'd go to the T14+Vandy (for the right price) any day over UF with money for FL big firms.


Generally I think the T14/Vandy is a better choice... but in the narrow circumstances of UF with $$$ vs. T-14 Sticker deadset on working in FL, I think it's a pretty close call, and UF could be the better choice for many. But neither choice would be objectively bad.

ahnhub
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Re: Florida law schools?

Postby ahnhub » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:39 am

How would you explain your choice? I assume it would involve some bullshitting, not just coming out and saying 'I went to a T-14 'cause the job prospects are better.'




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