Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

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Wily
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby Wily » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:31 pm

utlaw2007 wrote:
So how would one manage to get a steady stream of clients without engaging in unethical practices orrunning grossly expensive tv ads. I just have difficulty understanding that.


You have to get out there and meet as many people as you can. That's the hard part. I have no problem doing this because I am a very social person. When you make small talk with all kinds of people, big cases can spring out of nowhere. But you have to make small talk with LOTS of people. Only when you've built up a rep after years of doing this, will people come to you. Otherwise, you have to find your cases. But expand your superficial network as much as possible. Be out and about.


How do you eat for those couple of years starting off when you're getting your name around though? I've heard the hardest part for going solo is starting off, unless somehow you have a hundred thousand lying around to pay for advertising/office space/etc.

Kimberly
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby Kimberly » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:44 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Kimberly wrote:Do none of these murder defense lawyers feel somewhat guilty about having clients mortgage their homes, etc for this type of thing knowing how bad the odds are for the clients? I hope the attys at least put their heart and soul into making the case... either way (assuming most people charged with murder are actually guilty), I couldn't sleep at night knowing that I either made the family of a murderer suffer their entire livelihoods for their murdering family member or that I got a murderer a lesser deserved punishment... I will take doc review and just spare life's extravagances... thanks.

Whatever, they don't have to pay if they don't want to.


If they don't "WANT" to?!?!? Versus what? Having your life and liberty taken from you? Is this really a choice? And what for the innocent ones? Is that any better? Does it feel good to go to sleep at night knowing that you have added tremendously to the considerable misfortunes of one already wrongly accused of murder? "The pursuit of justice" is an absolute farce... where the cost of actually doing legal work far under-paces the actual cost of procuring a legal expert to defend your "rights" if you can afford it... while we sit and ponder all the ways we can get more money out of "the system" and pay less for our education... it is the greed of people looking to get rich screwing people over that has found us with too many lawyers out of law school and looking for work... Karma is a bitch.

And, not saying we shouldn't have lawyers but for fuck sake, get a grip. I am a primary care physician (what I consider to be one of the most valuable services provided to people), which came at a VERY HEFTY price tag (more than any of you will graduate in debt) and my max-out salary as a REALLY GREAT primary care physician is about 250K after 20 years of working... Not saying there shouldn't be lawyers, just saying people gotta get a little perspective. We make our own beds. If so many law students weren't so obsessed with those 500K per case stories (erroneously thinking they would be the special snowflake to achieve it), our law school education would not be so damn expensive, the legal field wouldn't be so over-saturated (and under-rated, in my opinion), and law schools wouldn't be looking to lure greedy little 0Ls into a black hole abyss of debt for a job they will end up hating because they chose it for the wrong reasons.

Anyways, just a rant considering it is Friday night, I am home alone, and therefore allowed to be a little feisty. I just wish there was more integrity in the world, that's all.

rad lulz
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby rad lulz » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:50 pm

Kimberly wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Kimberly wrote:Do none of these murder defense lawyers feel somewhat guilty about having clients mortgage their homes, etc for this type of thing knowing how bad the odds are for the clients? I hope the attys at least put their heart and soul into making the case... either way (assuming most people charged with murder are actually guilty), I couldn't sleep at night knowing that I either made the family of a murderer suffer their entire livelihoods for their murdering family member or that I got a murderer a lesser deserved punishment... I will take doc review and just spare life's extravagances... thanks.

Whatever, they don't have to pay if they don't want to.


If they don't "WANT" to?!?!? Versus what? Having your life and liberty taken from you? Is this really a choice? And what for the innocent ones? Is that any better? Does it feel good to go to sleep at night knowing that you have added tremendously to the considerable misfortunes of one already wrongly accused of murder? "The pursuit of justice" is an absolute farce... where the cost of actually doing legal work far under-paces the actual cost of procuring a legal expert to defend your "rights" if you can afford it... while we sit and ponder all the ways we can get more money out of "the system" and pay less for our education... it is the greed of people looking to get rich screwing people over that has found us with too many lawyers out of law school and looking for work... Karma is a bitch.

And, not saying we shouldn't have lawyers but for fuck sake, get a grip. I am a primary care physician (what I consider to be one of the most valuable services provided to people), which came at a VERY HEFTY price tag (more than any of you will graduate in debt) and my max-out salary as a REALLY GREAT primary care physician is about 250K after 20 years of working... Not saying there shouldn't be lawyers, just saying people gotta get a little perspective. We make our own beds. If so many law students weren't so obsessed with those 500K per case stories (erroneously thinking they would be the special snowflake to achieve it), our law school education would not be so damn expensive, the legal field wouldn't be so over-saturated (and under-rated, in my opinion), and law schools wouldn't be looking to lure greedy little 0Ls into a black hole abyss of debt for a job they will end up hating because they chose it for the wrong reasons.

Anyways, just a rant considering it is Friday night, I am home alone, and therefore allowed to be a little feisty. I just wish there was more integrity in the world, that's all.

If you can't afford a lawyer, you get one for free. It's your federal constitutional right. Check you Gideon v. Wainright.

HTH

Kimberly
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby Kimberly » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:59 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Kimberly wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Kimberly wrote:Do none of these murder defense lawyers feel somewhat guilty about having clients mortgage their homes, etc for this type of thing knowing how bad the odds are for the clients? I hope the attys at least put their heart and soul into making the case... either way (assuming most people charged with murder are actually guilty), I couldn't sleep at night knowing that I either made the family of a murderer suffer their entire livelihoods for their murdering family member or that I got a murderer a lesser deserved punishment... I will take doc review and just spare life's extravagances... thanks.

Whatever, they don't have to pay if they don't want to.


If they don't "WANT" to?!?!? Versus what? Having your life and liberty taken from you? Is this really a choice? And what for the innocent ones? Is that any better? Does it feel good to go to sleep at night knowing that you have added tremendously to the considerable misfortunes of one already wrongly accused of murder? "The pursuit of justice" is an absolute farce... where the cost of actually doing legal work far under-paces the actual cost of procuring a legal expert to defend your "rights" if you can afford it... while we sit and ponder all the ways we can get more money out of "the system" and pay less for our education... it is the greed of people looking to get rich screwing people over that has found us with too many lawyers out of law school and looking for work... Karma is a bitch.

And, not saying we shouldn't have lawyers but for fuck sake, get a grip. I am a primary care physician (what I consider to be one of the most valuable services provided to people), which came at a VERY HEFTY price tag (more than any of you will graduate in debt) and my max-out salary as a REALLY GREAT primary care physician is about 250K after 20 years of working... Not saying there shouldn't be lawyers, just saying people gotta get a little perspective. We make our own beds. If so many law students weren't so obsessed with those 500K per case stories (erroneously thinking they would be the special snowflake to achieve it), our law school education would not be so damn expensive, the legal field wouldn't be so over-saturated (and under-rated, in my opinion), and law schools wouldn't be looking to lure greedy little 0Ls into a black hole abyss of debt for a job they will end up hating because they chose it for the wrong reasons.

Anyways, just a rant considering it is Friday night, I am home alone, and therefore allowed to be a little feisty. I just wish there was more integrity in the world, that's all.

If you can't afford a lawyer, you get one for free. It's your federal constitutional right. Check you Gideon v. Wainright.

HTH


This is noted. 4 points here though. First, if it were you on trial for murder, would you go with the court appointed "free" lawyer or would you mortgage your home, your kid's trust, your wife's wedding ring, and any other goddam thing you can to get the "good" lawyer? Second, if you had to do all of the aforementioned to procure the "good" lawyer, does that really equate to being able to "afford it?" Third, can you really call the decision to do all of those things to get yourself a "good" lawyer an informed and rationally weighed choice given the duress of life and liberty under which it occurs? Fourth, in the interest of full disclosure, my entire rant is actually just projected disgust resulting from my experiences with medical malpractice, which really IS a farce. Anyways, I am really derailing the discussion here and I will let it go at this point. Please, proceed with your quandaries about how to make more money coming from TTT or TTTT....

utlaw2007
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby utlaw2007 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:03 am

Wily wrote:
utlaw2007 wrote:
So how would one manage to get a steady stream of clients without engaging in unethical practices orrunning grossly expensive tv ads. I just have difficulty understanding that.


You have to get out there and meet as many people as you can. That's the hard part. I have no problem doing this because I am a very social person. When you make small talk with all kinds of people, big cases can spring out of nowhere. But you have to make small talk with LOTS of people. Only when you've built up a rep after years of doing this, will people come to you. Otherwise, you have to find your cases. But expand your superficial network as much as possible. Be out and about.


How do you eat for those couple of years starting off when you're getting your name around though? I've heard the hardest part for going solo is starting off, unless somehow you have a hundred thousand lying around to pay for advertising/office space/etc.


That is the excruciatingly hard part. If you are incredibly honest like I am, you have to do doc review work. Most firms will not let you have your own cases while working at the firm. I imagine most government jobs won't either. Thankfully, law requires little overhead depending on what kinds of cases you take early on.

The problem with doc review work is that I absolutely HATE it. If you have your own practice, you are in the minority. Most are career doc reviewers who have either never practiced law a day in their life or no longer practice law for some reason. But I made the mistake of letting the supervisors at these projects know I have a practice outside of that crap. That was a big mistake. The supervisors are very envious of that. They think that you think that you are better than them. At least, that is how they act towards me. Not to mention, and this really gets on my nerves, the supervisors and everyone else at the review who likes it acts like the work is so hard and complex. There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your work. But do not belittle someone else if they aren't Mr. Doc reviewer all pro. It's actually quite nauseating.

But I kept myself going because I knew I had better things going on like actually practicing law outside that place. But it sucks royally!

utlaw2007
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby utlaw2007 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:09 am

my entire rant is actually just projected disgust resulting from my experiences with medical malpractice, which really IS a farce.


I have to stop you right there. I'll be the first to admit that many malpractice cases are frivolous. But try being in my shoes and have doctors mistreat you and almost cause you to get a terminal condition because they were either dismissive of my concerns and interests in not getting that condition, they basically didn't give a damn about whether I had received informed consent or not, or they just weren't knowledgeable like they should have been. And I can tell you all sorts of personal stories about that experience. So no, I don't hold all doctors in the same esteem as most of the public does. To say doctors can do no wrong and are giving a good effort is an incorrect statement.

rad lulz
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby rad lulz » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:13 am

Kimberly wrote:This is noted. 4 points here though. First, if it were you on trial for murder, would you go with the court appointed "free" lawyer or would you mortgage your home, your kid's trust, your wife's wedding ring, and any other goddam thing you can to get the "good" lawyer? Second, if you had to do all of the aforementioned to procure the "good" lawyer, does that really equate to being able to "afford it?" Third, can you really call the decision to do all of those things to get yourself a "good" lawyer an informed and rationally weighed choice given the duress of life and liberty under which it occurs? Fourth, in the interest of full disclosure, my entire rant is actually just projected disgust resulting from my experiences with medical malpractice, which really IS a farce. Anyways, I am really derailing the discussion here and I will let it go at this point. Please, proceed with your quandaries about how to make more money coming from TTT or TTTT....

1. I would do all of that. But that's the system we have; people don't work for free. If you don't want to pay for an expensive lawyer, don't hire one. We charged that much because we can, and we did get great results.
2. Don't want to pay our $75k retainer? I'm sure you can get some fresh out of law school kid to do the whole thing for like $30k. You may even be able to find someone better than us for cheaper. You don't want to pay for it? Then don't. In my jx, it's basically as simple as telling the court you can't afford a lawyer and you get the PD for free. They assign you one as soon as you get into the system.
3. And your solution to that would be... don't get worked up when you get accused of murder? You're not gonna fix that one. Get people to help you if you can. Friends, family, other members of your criminal org. (seriously).
4. Ok.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby RedBirds2011 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:16 am

Kimberly,

Public defenders are often extremely dedicated so don't underrate them.

I don't think most lawyers make as much money as you think. A murder trial requires quite a bit of work and like I said, the lawyer has to eat too. Those cases can go on for a LONG time. If I was accused of murder, I would definitely do all of the above and, so long as the defense attorney was very good, would not think he was a bad person for doing so. It's not like new lawyers are going out charging these rates without having paid their dues. They get paid well if they are worth it.

Kimberly
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby Kimberly » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:21 am

utlaw2007 wrote:
my entire rant is actually just projected disgust resulting from my experiences with medical malpractice, which really IS a farce.


I have to stop you right there. I'll be the first to admit that many malpractice cases are frivolous. But try being in my shoes and have doctors mistreat you and almost cause you to get a terminal condition because they were either dismissive of my concerns and interests in not getting that condition, they basically didn't give a damn about whether I had received informed consent or not, or they just weren't knowledgeable like they should have been. And I can tell you all sorts of personal stories about that experience. So no, I don't hold all doctors in the same esteem as most of the public does. To say doctors can do no wrong and are giving a good effort is an incorrect statement.


Well, I struck a chord here. And, while I will admit that we all make mistakes and that, yes, even I have witnessed dismissive physicians myself, look at the stats on med mal cases. A GREAT MAJORITY of them never make it to court and are NOT settled but dropped after a great deal of resources have been spent by the defense. Additionally, of those that do make it to court, MANY of them are won by the defense. So, while I fully realize that mistakes are made and even professional negligence exists in the medical profession, frivolous medical malpractice claims for people with statistically inevitable poor outcomes has ruined the careers, drive, enthusiasm, altruism, and passion of many of my colleagues. And, sorry to tell you but society wants docs, needs them, and has far too few of them in some areas. So, it is a shame when the drive and enthusiasm for medicine is stripped from an otherwise perfectly capable physician because an admittedly unfortunate patient has a statistically inevitable poor outcome. It is a gross epidemic and not fair to ANYONE including patients, physicians, or society. The only winners in most med mal cases are the lawyers... sorry to say.

Kimberly
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby Kimberly » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:22 am

RedBirds2011 wrote:Kimberly,

Public defenders are often extremely dedicated so don't underrate them.

I don't think most lawyers make as much money as you think. A murder trial requires quite a bit of work and like I said, the lawyer has to eat too. Those cases can go on for a LONG time. If I was accused of murder, I would definitely do all of the above and, so long as the defense attorney was very good, would not think he was a bad person for doing so. It's not like new lawyers are going out charging these rates without having paid their dues. They get paid well if they are worth it.


I ASSURE you, I am not underrating public defenders... this is not my choice, they are simply underrated. I personally actually love them and encourage this sort of behavior.

utlaw2007
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby utlaw2007 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:23 am

Lawyers are EXTREMELY important to society. Without us, society could not function. We keep people from harming you criminally. Think about all those prosecutors who work for nothing. We keep the products you buy from blowing up in your face. Many times, we front the expenses and work for free and don't get paid unless we win. I don't see anyone else in society doing that. We allow you to conduct business transactions with confidence. We allow for the transfer of property whether real or personal. We basically keep confidence high in these transactions so that parties will partake in these transactions. We basically allow society to pour money into the economy. And the economy is the life blood of society.

Some of us may be crooked, but we are all not that way. Last time I checked, many doctors I know went to medical school for the money. All kinds of people choose professions because of the money. That characteristic is not exclusive to lawyers. If someone wants to go to law school because they want to make a lot of money, so be it. But passing judgment on people is wrong and uncalled for. The kids on this site are trying to get the best ROI they can. And there is nothing wrong with that. Nor should they be punished for the behavior and mindsets of others in the profession.

And we also enforce the civil rights of all as well as constitutional rights. And that cannot be taken lightly.
Last edited by utlaw2007 on Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

utlaw2007
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby utlaw2007 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:29 am

@Kimberly. Keep in mind that it is lawyers that defend doctors in court for those malpractice suits. And those lawyers who work for insurance firms are not making a boatload of money.

Kimberly
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby Kimberly » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:32 am

utlaw2007 wrote:Lawyers are EXTREMELY important to society. Without us, society could not function. We keep people from harming you criminally. Think about all those prosecutors who work for nothing. We keep the products you buy from blowing up in your face. Many times, we front the expenses and work for free and don't get paid unless we win. I don't see anyone else in society doing that. We allow you to conduct business transactions with confidence. We allow for the transfer of property whether real or personal. We basically keep confidence high in these transactions so that parties will partake in these transactions. We basically allow society to pour money into the economy. And the economy is the life blood of society.

Some of us may be crooked, but we are all not that way. Last time I checked, many doctors I know went to medical school for the money. All kinds of people choose professions because of the money. That characteristic is not exclusive to lawyers. If someone wants to go to law school because they want to make a lot of money, so be it. But passing judgment on people is wrong and uncalled for. The kids on this site are trying to get the best ROI they can. And there is nothing wrong with that. Nor should they be punished for the behavior and mindsets of others in the profession.


Babe, listen, this isn't a personal attack. Nor have I suggested in any way shape or form that lawyers aren't extremely important to society. I am, afterall, LEAVING medicine to pursue the law. I believe in the law with my entire being. I otherwise would not be making this difficult choice. That said, it has been and remains my impression and the impression of many that many lawyers are chasing conflict instead of pursuing resolution... I don't judge it to any serious degree. I also understand this is the state of being and I can do nothing about it. But, I just sometimes wish there were a little more integrity in the world. And, just we expect to see more altruistic minded medical students given the income reductions and debt increases in medicine, I kinda sorta am looking forward to that happening in law as well. Law and Medicine are two professions that people NEED and people DESERVE... would be nice if we could have greater faith in the motives of those advocating for us... thaz it.

utlaw2007
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby utlaw2007 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:35 am

Kimberly wrote:
utlaw2007 wrote:Lawyers are EXTREMELY important to society. Without us, society could not function. We keep people from harming you criminally. Think about all those prosecutors who work for nothing. We keep the products you buy from blowing up in your face. Many times, we front the expenses and work for free and don't get paid unless we win. I don't see anyone else in society doing that. We allow you to conduct business transactions with confidence. We allow for the transfer of property whether real or personal. We basically keep confidence high in these transactions so that parties will partake in these transactions. We basically allow society to pour money into the economy. And the economy is the life blood of society.

Some of us may be crooked, but we are all not that way. Last time I checked, many doctors I know went to medical school for the money. All kinds of people choose professions because of the money. That characteristic is not exclusive to lawyers. If someone wants to go to law school because they want to make a lot of money, so be it. But passing judgment on people is wrong and uncalled for. The kids on this site are trying to get the best ROI they can. And there is nothing wrong with that. Nor should they be punished for the behavior and mindsets of others in the profession.


Babe, listen, this isn't a personal attack. Nor have I suggested in any way shape or form that lawyers aren't extremely important to society. I am, afterall, LEAVING medicine to pursue the law. I believe in the law with my entire being. I otherwise would not be making this difficult choice. That said, it has been and remains my impression and the impression of many that many lawyers are chasing conflict instead of pursuing resolution... I don't judge it to any serious degree. I also understand this is the state of being and I can do nothing about it. But, I just sometimes wish there were a little more integrity in the world. And, just we expect to see more altruistic minded medical students given the income reductions and debt increases in medicine, I kinda sorta am looking forward to that happening in law as well. Law and Medicine are two professions that people NEED and people DESERVE... would be nice if we could have greater faith in the motives of those advocating for us... thaz it.


Point well stated. I apologize for any hostility I may have had.

Curious1
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby Curious1 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:49 am

Kimberly wrote:
utlaw2007 wrote:Lawyers are EXTREMELY important to society. Without us, society could not function. We keep people from harming you criminally. Think about all those prosecutors who work for nothing. We keep the products you buy from blowing up in your face. Many times, we front the expenses and work for free and don't get paid unless we win. I don't see anyone else in society doing that. We allow you to conduct business transactions with confidence. We allow for the transfer of property whether real or personal. We basically keep confidence high in these transactions so that parties will partake in these transactions. We basically allow society to pour money into the economy. And the economy is the life blood of society.

Some of us may be crooked, but we are all not that way. Last time I checked, many doctors I know went to medical school for the money. All kinds of people choose professions because of the money. That characteristic is not exclusive to lawyers. If someone wants to go to law school because they want to make a lot of money, so be it. But passing judgment on people is wrong and uncalled for. The kids on this site are trying to get the best ROI they can. And there is nothing wrong with that. Nor should they be punished for the behavior and mindsets of others in the profession.


Babe, listen, this isn't a personal attack. Nor have I suggested in any way shape or form that lawyers aren't extremely important to society. I am, afterall, LEAVING medicine to pursue the law. I believe in the law with my entire being. I otherwise would not be making this difficult choice. That said, it has been and remains my impression and the impression of many that many lawyers are chasing conflict instead of pursuing resolution... I don't judge it to any serious degree. I also understand this is the state of being and I can do nothing about it. But, I just sometimes wish there were a little more integrity in the world. And, just we expect to see more altruistic minded medical students given the income reductions and debt increases in medicine, I kinda sorta am looking forward to that happening in law as well. Law and Medicine are two professions that people NEED and people DESERVE... would be nice if we could have greater faith in the motives of those advocating for us... thaz it.


Integrity isn't mutually exclusive with wanting to make money. And making money by "chasing conflict" often results in good outcomes. There was just an article in the NYT about the lawyers that find and sue businesses that violate the Americans with Disabilities Act. This involves going to mom-and-pop shops and essentially shaking them down until they install ramps...but the ramps get installed. Sure the lawyer gets rich in the process, and getting rich may have been his goal, but so what?

But I definitely agree with you that I couldn't do any kind of criminal work...too much emotional baggage. I'll happily edit contracts or take depositions or whatever though.

rad lulz
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby rad lulz » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:50 am

Kimberly wrote:And, just we expect to see more altruistic minded medical students given the income reductions and debt increases in medicine, I kinda sorta am looking forward to that happening in law as well. Law and Medicine are two professions that people NEED and people DESERVE... would be nice if we could have greater faith in the motives of those advocating for us... thaz it.

People NEED and DESERVE food/shelter/clothing/etc. in the same way, probably even more so. Yet people make a ton of money in those industries. Welcome to America.

utlaw2007
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby utlaw2007 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:51 am

Curious1 wrote:
Kimberly wrote:
utlaw2007 wrote:Lawyers are EXTREMELY important to society. Without us, society could not function. We keep people from harming you criminally. Think about all those prosecutors who work for nothing. We keep the products you buy from blowing up in your face. Many times, we front the expenses and work for free and don't get paid unless we win. I don't see anyone else in society doing that. We allow you to conduct business transactions with confidence. We allow for the transfer of property whether real or personal. We basically keep confidence high in these transactions so that parties will partake in these transactions. We basically allow society to pour money into the economy. And the economy is the life blood of society.

Some of us may be crooked, but we are all not that way. Last time I checked, many doctors I know went to medical school for the money. All kinds of people choose professions because of the money. That characteristic is not exclusive to lawyers. If someone wants to go to law school because they want to make a lot of money, so be it. But passing judgment on people is wrong and uncalled for. The kids on this site are trying to get the best ROI they can. And there is nothing wrong with that. Nor should they be punished for the behavior and mindsets of others in the profession.


Babe, listen, this isn't a personal attack. Nor have I suggested in any way shape or form that lawyers aren't extremely important to society. I am, afterall, LEAVING medicine to pursue the law. I believe in the law with my entire being. I otherwise would not be making this difficult choice. That said, it has been and remains my impression and the impression of many that many lawyers are chasing conflict instead of pursuing resolution... I don't judge it to any serious degree. I also understand this is the state of being and I can do nothing about it. But, I just sometimes wish there were a little more integrity in the world. And, just we expect to see more altruistic minded medical students given the income reductions and debt increases in medicine, I kinda sorta am looking forward to that happening in law as well. Law and Medicine are two professions that people NEED and people DESERVE... would be nice if we could have greater faith in the motives of those advocating for us... thaz it.


Integrity isn't mutually exclusive with wanting to make money. And making money by "chasing conflict" often results in good outcomes. There was just an article in the NYT about the lawyers that find and sue businesses that violate the Americans with Disabilities Act. This involves going to mom-and-pop shops and essentially shaking them down until they install ramps...but the ramps get installed. Sure the lawyer gets rich in the process, and getting rich may have been his goal, but so what?

But I definitely agree with you that I couldn't do any kind of criminal work...too much emotional baggage. I'll happily edit contracts or take depositions or whatever though.


Very good points , as well.

rad lulz
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby rad lulz » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:54 am

RedBirds2011 wrote:I don't think most lawyers make as much money as you think. A murder trial requires quite a bit of work and like I said, the lawyer has to eat too. Those cases can go on for a LONG time.

Yeah this too. A complicated murder or drug case can go on for years. We did our own investigating, filed PTR motions, did depos (our jx had criminal depos), etc. Depos and investigation are fucking expensive and time consuming. Assuming we don't hit trial, that $75k retainer for your armed robbery of whatever might be a 1.5 or 2 year commitment to you, the D.

Some shit's comparatively easy to get plead out in a short time, but there's no way to know that going in. With the complicated and high stakes cases we would take, if I was working in the summer, I never saw VERY few that we took when I started get finished by the time I left.

Kimberly
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby Kimberly » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:19 am

Curious1 wrote:
Kimberly wrote:
utlaw2007 wrote:Lawyers are EXTREMELY important to society. Without us, society could not function. We keep people from harming you criminally. Think about all those prosecutors who work for nothing. We keep the products you buy from blowing up in your face. Many times, we front the expenses and work for free and don't get paid unless we win. I don't see anyone else in society doing that. We allow you to conduct business transactions with confidence. We allow for the transfer of property whether real or personal. We basically keep confidence high in these transactions so that parties will partake in these transactions. We basically allow society to pour money into the economy. And the economy is the life blood of society.

Some of us may be crooked, but we are all not that way. Last time I checked, many doctors I know went to medical school for the money. All kinds of people choose professions because of the money. That characteristic is not exclusive to lawyers. If someone wants to go to law school because they want to make a lot of money, so be it. But passing judgment on people is wrong and uncalled for. The kids on this site are trying to get the best ROI they can. And there is nothing wrong with that. Nor should they be punished for the behavior and mindsets of others in the profession.


Babe, listen, this isn't a personal attack. Nor have I suggested in any way shape or form that lawyers aren't extremely important to society. I am, afterall, LEAVING medicine to pursue the law. I believe in the law with my entire being. I otherwise would not be making this difficult choice. That said, it has been and remains my impression and the impression of many that many lawyers are chasing conflict instead of pursuing resolution... I don't judge it to any serious degree. I also understand this is the state of being and I can do nothing about it. But, I just sometimes wish there were a little more integrity in the world. And, just we expect to see more altruistic minded medical students given the income reductions and debt increases in medicine, I kinda sorta am looking forward to that happening in law as well. Law and Medicine are two professions that people NEED and people DESERVE... would be nice if we could have greater faith in the motives of those advocating for us... thaz it.


Integrity isn't mutually exclusive with wanting to make money. And making money by "chasing conflict" often results in good outcomes. There was just an article in the NYT about the lawyers that find and sue businesses that violate the Americans with Disabilities Act. This involves going to mom-and-pop shops and essentially shaking them down until they install ramps...but the ramps get installed. Sure the lawyer gets rich in the process, and getting rich may have been his goal, but so what?

But I definitely agree with you that I couldn't do any kind of criminal work...too much emotional baggage. I'll happily edit contracts or take depositions or whatever though.


I do agree with your point here though I am not particularly compelled by the example... I had heard this story elsewhere and was pretty appalled at it and not because I thought it was a good outcome... That said, you are right, poor motives do sometimes (SOMETIMES) result in good outcomes. And, I would prefer greater access for the disabled while I lament the overall financial damage and stress imposed upon the small business owners rather than everyone ending up losers in the situation... makes me feel a little better.

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boredatwork
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby boredatwork » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:04 am

We come from a common law system, might literally makes right in it. The law is the way it is because in merry ole' England you couldn't possible be wrong if you won because God wouldn't let that happen (see choosing a champion for a duel to the death.) It applies directly to our legal system, even if you have the rule of law on your side YOU COULD STILL LOSE to a better trial attorney, believe me I see it all the time. That is why you pay a lot of money to get out of a serious offense. You think the best heart surgeon in the country gets paid the same as the newest or the worst? Of course not, aptitude comes at a price. Should it be that way? does charging your worth make you an immoral person? I don't think so.

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boredatwork
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby boredatwork » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:10 am

utlaw2007 wrote:
Integrity isn't mutually exclusive with wanting to make money. And making money by "chasing conflict" often results in good outcomes. There was just an article in the NYT about the lawyers that find and sue businesses that violate the Americans with Disabilities Act. This involves going to mom-and-pop shops and essentially shaking them down until they install ramps...but the ramps get installed. Sure the lawyer gets rich in the process, and getting rich may have been his goal, but so what?

But I definitely agree with you that I couldn't do any kind of criminal work...too much emotional baggage. I'll happily edit contracts or take depositions or whatever though.


Funny, one of our Neps just wrote an article about something similar. Apparently there is a guy who walks around with his service dog and when "mom and pop" kick him and his dog out they sue them. Makes his entire living doing this and is a terrible burden on the system, sure those businesses might be better rehearsed in service animal rules but what do you think that does for insurance rates on small businesses? There might be some value but I think it is far outweighed by the cost on society.

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dingbat
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby dingbat » Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:15 am

There's a scam (if you can call it that) in NY where a few guys dress up as religious people, stand on a soapbox, and preach offensive stuff (anti gay, anti jew, anti military, etc)They basically keep espousing controversial shit until there's a big enough crowd, and until someone in the audience becomes agitated. Then they keep saying shit to get that agitated person properly pissed, in the hopes that s/he will fly IFC in a handle and punch the speaker - in front of all those witnesses.
Imagine bring their personal injury lawyer...

09042014
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby 09042014 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:10 am

Eh, there could easily be a system with no lawyers. Just have judges who do all the investigating and research themselves.

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dingbat
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby dingbat » Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:44 am

Desert Fox wrote:Eh, there could easily be a system with no lawyers. Just have judges who do all the investigating and research themselves.

Even in countries where there is civil law (ie no case law, just the written law) there are lawyers.

I was going to write more, but then I figured you already know thete's more to lawyering than investigation and research

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Wily
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Re: Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it.

Postby Wily » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:10 pm

rad lulz wrote:2. Don't want to pay our $75k retainer? I'm sure you can get some fresh out of law school kid to do the whole thing for like $30k. You may even be able to find someone better than us for cheaper. You don't want to pay for it? Then don't. In my jx, it's basically as simple as telling the court you can't afford a lawyer and you get the PD for free. They assign you one as soon as you get into the system.


Or you can pay $7,700 for Joseph Rakofsky!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/wom ... story.html




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