Big Law vs "Shit" Law. I don't get it. Forum

[IHeartPhilly]

Dear TLS, I will be attending a regional TTT on an almost full scholly, and will have to pay no COA. I am hedging my bets at said school by taking on virtually no debt. I'm concerned though, as the school has no specialty offerings in "shit law". Consensus on TLS suggests that I should become acquainted with shit-law, as it is the type of law that my school is really passionate about, and geared towards teaching. Thus, if any TLSers out there could clarify what is meant by "Shit-law" in terms of type of law practiced, firm sizes, salaries, etc. vs Big Law, it would be much appreciated..

[bigeast03]

Dear TLS, I will be attending a regional TTT on an almost full scholly, and will have to pay no COA. I am hedging my bets at said school by taking on virtually no debt. I'm concerned though, as the school has no specialty offerings in "shit law". Consensus on TLS suggests that I should become acquainted with shit-law, as it is the type of law that my school is really passionate about, and geared towards teaching. Thus, if any TLSers out there could clarify what is meant by "Shit-law" in terms of type of law practiced, firm sizes, salaries, etc. vs Big Law, it would be much appreciated.

Assuming genuine curiosity, I'll bite. I think most people refer to "Shit Law" as being small (<20, more likely 2-10 attorneys per "firm") and low paying ($40k-60K/year). They typically practice under the guise of "general practice", which could mean tickets, misdemeanors, wills and trusts, real estate, or whatever they can find. The pay is substantially less than BigLaw and the work is much less prestigious. There are worse case scenarios, and the work isn't entirely uninteresting - just not particularly well respected.

ETA: 0L here, didn't realize the forum. Do have experience in the area though.

[duckmoney]

Dear TLS, I will be attending a regional TTT on an almost full scholly, and will have to pay no COA. I am hedging my bets at said school by taking on virtually no debt. I'm concerned though, as the school has no specialty offerings in "shit law". Consensus on TLS suggests that I should become acquainted with shit-law, as it is the type of law that my school is really passionate about, and geared towards teaching. Thus, if any TLSers out there could clarify what is meant by "Shit-law" in terms of type of law practiced, firm sizes, salaries, etc. vs Big Law, it would be much appreciated.

Shit-law is an umbrella term used to refer to law firms that do low-level, unsophisticated work and pay their associates poorly, usually less than $50k. They very in size, though they are generally small firms or solo practices. An exception would be Morgan and Morgan, which made the NLJ 350 but is still a shitlaw firm.

People mostly differentiate shitlaw and biglaw based on the salaries, which are reflective of the sophistication of the work involved. A 20-lawyer boutique firm which pays $160k to associates to do corporate litigation is considered "biglaw", while a 200-lawyer firm that pays associates $35k to do claims processing so that the named partners can sort which personal injury suits they want to take on a contingency-fee basis is a shitlaw firm. So is pretty much any firm that does practices like family law, personal injury, and trust and estates for low and middle income individuals.

The general complaint is that shitlaw firm work is just as boring and as much of a drudgery and just as demanding as biglaw work, but the salaries are much lower.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Dear TLS, I will be attending a regional TTT on an almost full scholly, and will have to pay no COA. I am hedging my bets at said school by taking on virtually no debt. I'm concerned though, as the school has no specialty offerings in "shit law". Consensus on TLS suggests that I should become acquainted with shit-law, as it is the type of law that my school is really passionate about, and geared towards teaching. Thus, if any TLSers out there could clarify what is meant by "Shit-law" in terms of type of law practiced, firm sizes, salaries, etc. vs Big Law, it would be much appreciated.

Assuming genuine curiosity, I'll bite. I think most people refer to "Shit Law" as being small (<20, more likely 2-10 attorneys per "firm") and low paying ($40k-60K/year). They typically practice under the guise of "general practice", which could mean tickets, misdemeanors, wills and trusts, real estate, or whatever they can find. The pay is substantially less than BigLaw and the work is much less prestigious. There are worse case scenarios, and the work isn't entirely uninteresting - just not particularly well respected.

Contract doc review is usually in this category as well.

OP- I doubt the quality of your education will be much different than anyone on here. The problem with lower ranked schools are just that your job prospects will just be much worse. Try to get good grades and hustle, and then hope things turn out okay. (And if not, at least you won't have a lot of debt.) Good luck.

[RedBirds2011]

Dear TLS, I will be attending a regional TTT on an almost full scholly, and will have to pay no COA. I am hedging my bets at said school by taking on virtually no debt. I'm concerned though, as the school has no specialty offerings in "shit law". Consensus on TLS suggests that I should become acquainted with shit-law, as it is the type of law that my school is really passionate about, and geared towards teaching. Thus, if any TLSers out there could clarify what is meant by "Shit-law" in terms of type of law practiced, firm sizes, salaries, etc. vs Big Law, it would be much appreciated.

Assuming genuine curiosity, I'll bite. I think most people refer to "Shit Law" as being small (<20, more likely 2-10 attorneys per "firm") and low paying ($40k-60K/year). They typically practice under the guise of "general practice", which could mean tickets, misdemeanors, wills and trusts, real estate, or whatever they can find. The pay is substantially less than BigLaw and the work is much less prestigious. There are worse case scenarios, and the work isn't entirely uninteresting - just not particularly well respected.

ETA: 0L here, didn't realize the forum. Do have experience in the area though.

Also assuming genuine curiosity, the pay is generally lower at least at the beginning stages of your career. But I never understand why someone would consider it not well respected. Doing work for fortune 500= respect; doing work for individuals=no respect? Being originally from a small town, I always felt small law was where all lawyers worked. it's classic real lawyering. It was only later I even knew what biglaw was.

(someone with experience in small law environment on both client and law firm side)

Edit: most lawyers in this country do not work for big law firms

[20130312]

I'm concerned though, as the school has no specialty offerings in "shit law".

You mean they don't even train their students for their future professions?

[jkpolk]

Dear TLS, I will be attending a regional TTT on an almost full scholly, and will have to pay no COA. I am hedging my bets at said school by taking on virtually no debt. I'm concerned though, as the school has no specialty offerings in "shit law". Consensus on TLS suggests that I should become acquainted with shit-law, as it is the type of law that my school is really passionate about, and geared towards teaching. Thus, if any TLSers out there could clarify what is meant by "Shit-law" in terms of type of law practiced, firm sizes, salaries, etc. vs Big Law, it would be much appreciated.

Assuming genuine curiosity, I'll bite. I think most people refer to "Shit Law" as being small (<20, more likely 2-10 attorneys per "firm") and low paying ($40k-60K/year). They typically practice under the guise of "general practice", which could mean tickets, misdemeanors, wills and trusts, real estate, or whatever they can find. The pay is substantially less than BigLaw and the work is much less prestigious. There are worse case scenarios, and the work isn't entirely uninteresting - just not particularly well respected.

ETA: 0L here, didn't realize the forum. Do have experience in the area though.

Also assuming genuine curiosity, the pay is generally lower at least at the beginning stages of your career. But I never understand why someone would consider it not well respected. Doing work for fortune 500= respect; doing work for individuals=no respect? Being originally from a small town, I always felt small law was where all lawyers worked. it's classic real lawyering. It was only later I even knew what biglaw was.

(someone with experience in small law environment on both client and law firm side)

Edit: most lawyers in this country do not work for big law firms

My uncle went to a TTTT and started his own firm. He enjoys the ownership he has of his work product and that he has been able to hire people he likes working with. Not much money, but that's not the point. Shit law is not shit, just not especially glamorous

[mattviphky]

Also assuming genuine curiosity, the pay is generally lower at least at the beginning stages of your career. But I never understand why someone would consider it not well respected. Doing work for fortune 500= respect; doing work for individuals=no respect? Being originally from a small town, I always felt small law was where all lawyers worked. it's classic real lawyering. It was only later I even knew what biglaw was.

(someone with experience in small law environment on both client and law firm side)

Edit: most lawyers in this country do not work for big law firms

Same. I know a number of lawyers in my town, and they all do crim defense, DUI, and all that other local stuff. They also make great money, although they have been practicing for many years. However, many people (or the loudest) on this site call that sort of practice "shitlaw". It's no big deal. Some people are in bad situations, but if you're attending a strong local program with no COA, I don't see how 50k in low COL area working as a real lawyer is a bad thing.

[bigeast03]

My uncle went to a TTTT and started his own firm. He enjoys the ownership he has of his work product and that he has been able to hire people he likes working with. Not much money, but that's not the point. Shit law is not shit, just not especially glamorous

Definitely agree with a lot of this- "Shit Law" is kind of a misnomer. There are a lot of benefits to this type of work - control over the work content, ability to have a life outside of work, regular business hours, etc. You are performing a necessary service to a lot of people who would otherwise lack access to legal help. The main complaint against "shit law" is the money. Even this level of law requires a high amount of work, and the payoff isn't always there.
I don't know if I would really lump in Doc Review, since that seems more removed from legal practice. But again, the definition is subjective.

[ricking1288]

The reason for this sentiment on TLS that shitlaw is garbage is due to the fact that most of us will have a shitload of debt after graduation. The easiest way to pay off this debt is by working a biglaw job with biglaw pay. For example, if one is to make 160k starting and had 200k in debt, it would be a helluva lot easier than if you were only getting paid 50k. It basically comes down to that. In the aspect of prestige, what kind of law would you personally rather be doing? Working with fortune 500 corporations help negotiate crazy ass holy fuckin shit kinda deals or handle Denny Crane kinda complex litigations, or work for a small law firm and handle dui, traffic tickets, divorce, bankruptcy, etc. Listen if you have a full ride and no COA to worry about and want to the latter, by all means fuck biglaw and be the best damn lawyer you can be. On the other hand, if you're trying to be that guy rolling up in a 75k+ car to go home to your high upper middle class condo, where your second/third wife is making ramen noodles because you decided to join a sugar babies website after your last divorce where you'll find a bunch of 22 year old hotties that cant really cook, then biglaw is the way to go. Don't get me wrong you can be that guy and work in a small law firm aka shitlaw (i.e. Mark O'Mara has only one other lawyer in his practice and the amount of publicity his practice will get if he does well in the George Zimmerman case, will be ridonkulous!!!!!) But all in all if you have a full ride and want individuals as clients and be Bobby Donnell from "The Practice" then all the best to you my friend.

[angrybird]

you mean shitlaw doesn't involve actual feces? TLS LIED TO ME

[StarLightSpectre]

The reason for this sentiment on TLS that shitlaw is garbage is due to the fact that most of us will have a shitload of debt after graduation. The easiest way to pay off this debt is by working a biglaw job with biglaw pay. For example, if one is to make 160k starting and had 200k in debt, it would be a helluva lot easier than if you were only getting paid 50k. It basically comes down to that. In the aspect of prestige, what kind of law would you personally rather be doing? Working with fortune 500 corporations help negotiate crazy ass holy fuckin shit kinda deals or handle Denny Crane kinda complex litigations, or work for a small law firm and handle dui, traffic tickets, divorce, bankruptcy, etc. Listen if you have a full ride and no COA to worry about and want to the latter, by all means fuck biglaw and be the best damn lawyer you can be. On the other hand, if you're trying to be that guy rolling up in a 75k+ car to go home to your high upper middle class condo, where your second/third wife is making ramen noodles because you decided to join a sugar babies website after your last divorce where you'll find a bunch of 22 year old hotties that cant really cook, then biglaw is the way to go. Don't get me wrong you can be that guy and work in a small law firm aka shitlaw (i.e. Mark O'Mara has only one other lawyer in his practice and the amount of publicity his practice will get if he does well in the George Zimmerman case, will be ridonkulous!!!!!) But all in all if you have a full ride and want individuals as clients and be Bobby Donnell from "The Practice" then all the best to you my friend.

+1 Loved the sugar baby part.. so much to look forward to.

[09042014]

Also 50K for shit law is thrown around for shit law in high COL areas. Salary in low COL is probably lower.

[IHeartPhilly]

Thanks all for the responses. My question was indeed posted genuinely. So lets assume (sorry, I know people hate this) one finished well enough in a reputable regional TTT to procure a shit-law job. Is said student (now "shit law" attorney) destined to a life of 45-60k and menial legal jobs while studs like ricking eat ramen noodles in condos with young co-eds? I know theres probably a million answers to this question, but what are some options for a "shit-law" attorney at a 2-10 person firm, after some substantial experience practicing?

[09042014]

Thanks all for the responses. My question was indeed posted genuinely. So lets assume (sorry, I know people hate this) one finished well enough in a reputable regional TTT to procure a shit-law job. Is said student (now "shit law" attorney) destined to a life of 45-60k and menial legal jobs while studs like ricking eat ramen noodles in condos with young co-eds? I know theres probably a million answers to this question, but what are some options for a "shit-law" attorney at a 2-10 person firm, after some substantial experience practicing?

First of all what is this bizarre ramen = high class trolling

No. Some make a good name for themselves and make good money. You become partner or make your own firm. Some go half way, and make a decent living doing shit law. 80K per year is pretty good. Most spend a decade hustlin' for slip and fall suits and then flame out and exit law.

[utlaw2007]

I have a law school classmate who quit Susman Godfrey to work at a personal injury firm. Not saying I would have done the same thing because I am not sold on doing personal injury case after personal injury case. This firm is a bit different because they do catastrophic personal injury which is what I dabble in among my other practice areas because the payouts are so huge. However, the point of my statement is that he makes more money than he did at Susman. The flip side to this is that I have a classmate who works at another personal injury firm. All they do is car wrecks. He's sick of doing car wrecks. He says there is only 6 ways to get into a car wreck and he's seen them over and over. He doesn't make any money. But he's sticking around for the trial experience he is getting. He's not going to stay there long. And I also have a few lawyer friends who make a lot more than what a biglaw associate does in a year. And they make that kind of money off of one case. I do, as well. There are all kinds of practice areas that biglaw does not do that don't involve family law, personal injury, or probate stuff. And these areas can be highly lucrative for a trial lawyer. Being a plaintiffs lawyer is the most lucrative area of all of law. I have another classmate of mine that made as much money in ONE case as a big law partner makes in an entire year. Now that was a personal injury case. But there are other areas such as patent infringement or other forms of commercial litigation that are extremely lucrative and put an associate biglaw salary to shame. But you have to become a trial attorney.

One must be a trial attorney and they must have certain practice areas that can be lucrative. Family law and bankruptcy won't cut it. But I will say that those criminal attorneys who do felonies do pretty good. I have another classmate who made 50 grand in one week off of one immigration case after he opened up his own firm a few weeks ago. That is not the norm. And you have to work really hard to get those cases, but they are out there. But the key is that you HAVE to have some trial skills.

[utlaw2007]

The other key is that you have to own your own law firm. You cannot make that kind of money working for someone else. And when you own your own law firm, you have to work hard to get business. But if you do, the work MAY come. It just depends on how hard you work and how smart you work. Many lawyers who pose as trial lawyers are broke. However, really good ones make a ton of money. I would say that you have to be a good trial lawyer and you have to be an even better business man.

[IHeartPhilly]

First of all what is this bizarre ramen = high class trolling

Not trolling, I was invoking someone's prior post. Your guess is as good as mine

No. Some make a good name for themselves and make good money. You become partner or make your own firm. Some go half way, and make a decent living doing shit law. 80K per year is pretty good. Most spend a decade hustlin' for slip and fall suits and then flame out and exit law.

Thank you for the response. Can't help but laugh when the term shit law is used in a serious context.

[angrybird]

First of all what is this bizarre ramen = high class trolling

Not trolling, I was invoking someone's prior post. Your guess is as good as mine

No. Some make a good name for themselves and make good money. You become partner or make your own firm. Some go half way, and make a decent living doing shit law. 80K per year is pretty good. Most spend a decade hustlin' for slip and fall suits and then flame out and exit law.

Thank you for the response. Can't help but laugh when the term shit law is used in a serious context.

you have to admit "smalllaw" isn't really an option

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Thanks all for the responses. My question was indeed posted genuinely. So lets assume (sorry, I know people hate this) one finished well enough in a reputable regional TTT to procure a shit-law job. Is said student (now "shit law" attorney) destined to a life of 45-60k and menial legal jobs while studs like ricking eat ramen noodles in condos with young co-eds? I know theres probably a million answers to this question, but what are some options for a "shit-law" attorney at a 2-10 person firm, after some substantial experience practicing?

From what I've gathered:
1) If you have to resort to contract doc review work to pay the bills, most firms see that as a huge black mark on your resume and you're pretty screwed in trying to find more permanent legal employment.
2) If you are a workhorse for a PI firm, the partner might just very well work you to death until you leave on your own (since there are many willing bodies to replace you). If that's the case, then you either bounce around low-paying options or you try to go solo (or try to start a small firm with other people you've met during this time).
3) If you are at a more legit small firm where there is room for upward growth, then it seems like you have the chance to increase your salary and become a more vital part of the firm.

I'm not really sure of which situation is more prevalent, #2 or #3. I'm inclined to think #2, just because there is so much more supply of young attorneys desperate for any sort of legal job these days. Maybe start looking through local small firms webpages to see if there are any younger partners and when they graduated from law school.

The big danger in TTT schools is more than just ended up at a small firm with a low salary--there is a very real danger of not being able to find any permanent legal job whatsoever. Law school is pretty much a risk for anyone minus people at Yale, with their LRAP of we-cover-everything-even-if-you decide-to-be-a-kindergarten-teacher-after-law-school (though I think they recently decided to make their LRAP not as good). That's why it's so important to stack the deck in your favor my getting the high LSAT you can and attending a school that has strong placement in the area you want to work (and minimizing debt).

[RedBirds2011]

The other key is that you have to own your own law firm. You cannot make that kind of money working for someone else. And when you own your own law firm, you have to work hard to get business. But if you do, the work MAY come. It just depends on how hard you work and how smart you work. Many lawyers who pose as trial lawyers are broke. However, really good ones make a ton of money. I would say that you have to be a good trial lawyer and you have to be an even better business man.

I will agree with this with one caveat. Family law and probate can be very lucrative if you get into high net worth cases, which is similar to the difference between car accidents and high payout plaintiffs work. Also, isn't patent litigation pretty much biglaw territory?

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Shit law is way too large of a category. I'm still in school and work part-time in shitlaw-- (sitting in my office as we speak..) and I'd have to say the cases can be really interesting. All four I'm working on now are interesting to me-- contract stuff, crim defense, some crazy defamation claim. Some of it can be downright hilarious. Also the two partners here make about half a million a year, so you can make money if you build your own practice. I think the last associate they hired was two years ago and he started at 70k, although I don't think he makes too much more than that now.

The majority of posters here would say this was "shitlaw," but I'd rather do this than big law. I'm happy in life and not very ambitious-- working in big law would dominate everything, whereas everyone here has a life outside the office. Hell, the higher you are on the pyramid scheme that is legal employment the less you work in shitlaw. The partners might work 30 a week..

[utlaw2007]

The other key is that you have to own your own law firm. You cannot make that kind of money working for someone else. And when you own your own law firm, you have to work hard to get business. But if you do, the work MAY come. It just depends on how hard you work and how smart you work. Many lawyers who pose as trial lawyers are broke. However, really good ones make a ton of money. I would say that you have to be a good trial lawyer and you have to be an even better business man.

I will agree with this with one caveat. Family law and probate can be very lucrative if you get into high net worth cases, which is similar to the difference between car accidents and high payout plaintiffs work. Also, isn't patent litigation pretty much biglaw territory?

That is a very good point you raise. A wills an estates lawyer who manages a very large estate or a lawyer who does a very large bankruptcy makes a lot of money. Doing traffic tickets suck. But doing DUI's (if you have a little volume are absolutely great) And if you get a murder case, you've hit the jackpot. A lot of lawyers charge like 60 grand for a murder case. Others charge 20k+ which is on the cheaper side.

Patent infringement as well as contract litigation (my specialty) can be done on all scales. You might have a small corporation that just doesn't want to pay biglaw fees or they can't afford biglaw fees. So that's where smaller firms like mine come in to help and save the day. Most everything can be reduced to a smaller scale that is too small for biglaw.

Construction litigation is another main practice area of mine. That is an area that some biglaw firms here in Texas practice. They oversee projects that are hundreds of millions if not a few billion dollars large. However, if you have a dispute where the amount in controversy is only 1, 5 ,or 10 million dollars, that is far too small a case for a biglaw firm to take. So guess who is coming to save the day in that scenario?

[flcath]

FWIW, I know some ppl in the shittiest of shitlaw practices . . . we're talking faces on bus stop benches, "Se habla Espanol", the works.

It actually looks kind of fun (hell, it looks fun as fuck compared to BL), but the skills that get you ahead are clearly not legal skills. Given the aspieness of the average student at a good law school, see generally Top-Law-Schools.com, most of them would be terrible at it.

But I do know some young dudes (literal TTTT grads of the past 5 years) who are making good at it.

[IHeartPhilly]

Shit law is way too large of a category. I'm still in school and work part-time in shitlaw-- (sitting in my office as we speak..) and I'd have to say the cases can be really interesting. All four I'm working on now are interesting to me-- contract stuff, crim defense, some crazy defamation claim. Some of it can be downright hilarious. Also the two partners here make about half a million a year, so you can make money if you build your own practice. I think the last associate they hired was two years ago and he started at 70k, although I don't think he makes too much more than that now.

The majority of posters here would say this was "shitlaw," but I'd rather do this than big law. I'm happy in life and not very ambitious-- working in big law would dominate everything, whereas everyone here has a life outside the office. Hell, the higher you are on the pyramid scheme that is legal employment the less you work in shitlaw. The partners might work 30 a week..

Thanks McDuff, interesting stuff. You provide light in a seemingly dark TTT world. Are you currently attending TT+?

Onto your post: Would I be wrong to assume the partners at your firm attended a top school, though? Not trying to challenge your response at all. However, I've done some serious Googling, and alot of the small firms around my area have partners with some lofty educational and big-firm pedigrees, and these guys eventually opened their own practices.