Does undergraduate school matter?

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09042014
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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:07 am

IAFG wrote:
kwais wrote:These all seem like good reasons. I bet it's still a great tie-breaker

I don't think we'll ever know if lower ivies are tiebreakers, because ivy kids just have a better shot at cool softs. The ivy grads I know did thinks like TFA, worked at neat nonprofits, did consulting at big-name consulting firms, oh, and had high GPAs, inflation?... stuff that's pretty hard to get out of, say, Western Illinois University. So I guess either way you're better off going to an ivy, but I'm unconvinced it's the name alone that's opening doors.


Western has DAT auto-acceptance to the State Police internship bro.

09042014
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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:09 am

On a serious note, I'd go to Cornell. Has anyone outside of NYC ever heard of fordham? If law doesn't work out, you'll want the connections Cornell has. Assuming the price is same.

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eandy
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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby eandy » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:13 am

At OCI, it may help to have gone to Cornell rather than Fordham.

HeavenWood
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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:19 am

Curious1 wrote:Cornell is barely an Ivy League...just stay and graduate in 3 years. Get a good enough GPA/LSAT and you'll be on your way to a REAL Ivy League for law school.

I actually wish ill-will upon you.

09042014
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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:23 am

HeavenWood wrote:
Curious1 wrote:Cornell is barely an Ivy League...just stay and graduate in 3 years. Get a good enough GPA/LSAT and you'll be on your way to a REAL Ivy League for law school.

I actually wish ill-will upon you.


That he Xfers to Cornell then gets SAD and kills himself?

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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:24 am

Desert Fox wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
Curious1 wrote:Cornell is barely an Ivy League...just stay and graduate in 3 years. Get a good enough GPA/LSAT and you'll be on your way to a REAL Ivy League for law school.

I actually wish ill-will upon you.


That he Xfers to Cornell then gets SAD and kills himself?

That would work.

sayornis
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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby sayornis » Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:02 pm

Transfer, 100%.

At least 3 people from Cornell's ILR school have gotten into Harvard Law this year (not to mention CCN with a lot of money). It's a solid program and the professors seem to be very engaged and write excellent LoRs.

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IAFG
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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby IAFG » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:40 am

sayornis wrote:Transfer, 100%.

At least 3 people from Cornell's ILR school have gotten into Harvard Law this year (not to mention CCN with a lot of money). It's a solid program and the professors seem to be very engaged and write excellent LoRs.

This post is totally meaningless without stats and URM status. All the schools you mention are egregious number whores.

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BaiAilian2013
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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby BaiAilian2013 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:02 pm

From a future law school applicant's perspective, it probably doesn't matter. If you're really worried about doing worse at Cornell, look into which undergrad classes there are curved, etc., but I'd be surprised if you did worse simply by being at Cornell rather than Fordham. But I also think you're making a mistake by looking at it only through a future law school applicant's perspective. Go where you'll be happiest, especially since financial aid is not an issue. And double major if you feel like it. Your parents already had their shot at college; this is yours. You don't get this time back, so don't rob yourself of a year of college without good reason, and don't minimize your concerns about where you'll be happier socially and where the academic program is more attractive to you - that stuff matters.

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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby Napt » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:05 pm

Suny-Ithica isn't worth it, especially if you might graduate slower or with a lower gpa.

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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:21 pm

Napt wrote:Suny-Ithica isn't worth it, especially if you might graduate slower or with a lower gpa.

Sticking within departments, the higher grade inflation that tends to be the norm at top schools will usually cancel out the subsequent increase in rigor or difficulty. OP: by "financial aid not being a problem," do you mean that the two schools will cost approximately the same, or that your parents are ok with paying the subsequent increase in tuition/room and board? If the latter, I would consider making a deal with your folks that if you stick it out at Fordham, they'll pledge the savings difference toward your law school education.

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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby acrossthelake » Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:26 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
Napt wrote:Suny-Ithica isn't worth it, especially if you might graduate slower or with a lower gpa.

Sticking within departments, the higher grade inflation that tends to be the norm at top schools will usually cancel out the subsequent increase in rigor or difficulty. OP: by "financial aid not being a problem," do you mean that the two schools will cost approximately the same, or that your parents are ok with paying the subsequent increase in tuition/room and board? If the latter, I would consider making a deal with your folks that if you stick it out at Fordham, they'll pledge the savings difference toward your law school education.


The choice is Cornell, not Dartmouth or Brown. Cornell is the grade-deflation Ivy.

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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:29 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
Napt wrote:Suny-Ithica isn't worth it, especially if you might graduate slower or with a lower gpa.

Sticking within departments, the higher grade inflation that tends to be the norm at top schools will usually cancel out the subsequent increase in rigor or difficulty. OP: by "financial aid not being a problem," do you mean that the two schools will cost approximately the same, or that your parents are ok with paying the subsequent increase in tuition/room and board? If the latter, I would consider making a deal with your folks that if you stick it out at Fordham, they'll pledge the savings difference toward your law school education.


The choice is Cornell, not Dartmouth or Brown. Cornell is the grade-deflation Ivy.


It still has a median of around 3.4. Fordham is under 3.2.

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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:06 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
Napt wrote:Suny-Ithica isn't worth it, especially if you might graduate slower or with a lower gpa.

Sticking within departments, the higher grade inflation that tends to be the norm at top schools will usually cancel out the subsequent increase in rigor or difficulty. OP: by "financial aid not being a problem," do you mean that the two schools will cost approximately the same, or that your parents are ok with paying the subsequent increase in tuition/room and board? If the latter, I would consider making a deal with your folks that if you stick it out at Fordham, they'll pledge the savings difference toward your law school education.


The choice is Cornell, not Dartmouth or Brown. Cornell is the grade-deflation Ivy.


It still has a median of around 3.4. Fordham is under 3.2.

So much for "grade deflation" lulz.

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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby Napt » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:21 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Sticking within departments, the higher grade inflation that tends to be the norm at top schools will usually cancel out the subsequent increase in rigor or difficulty. OP: by "financial aid not being a problem," do you mean that the two schools will cost approximately the same, or that your parents are ok with paying the subsequent increase in tuition/room and board? If the latter, I would consider making a deal with your folks that if you stick it out at Fordham, they'll pledge the savings difference toward your law school education.


The choice is Cornell, not Dartmouth or Brown. Cornell is the grade-deflation Ivy.


It still has a median of around 3.4. Fordham is under 3.2.

So much for "grade deflation" lulz.

Cornell's average incoming SAT is over 200 points higher than Fordham's and I'd imagine the average incoming GPA is higher as well. A difference in a graduating GPA of 0.2 is insignificant.

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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby acrossthelake » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:44 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
It still has a median of around 3.4. Fordham is under 3.2.

So much for "grade deflation" lulz.[/quote]

I very much doubt that the 0.2 difference in GPA cancels out the increased rigor. My understanding from most people I've met who have gone to Cornell's either Arts&Sciences or Engineering school is that it's a lot of work.

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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby bilbobaggins » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:53 pm

Curious1 wrote:
woeisme wrote:
Curious1 wrote:Cornell is barely an Ivy League...just stay and graduate in 3 years. Get a good enough GPA/LSAT and you'll be on your way to a REAL Ivy League for law school.


Lol bitter much? :)


Bitter at what?

EDIT: Oh I see you went to Cornell, no offense but at my UG we call it a public school. :P


Came for the douchebaggery. Was not disappointed.

HeavenWood
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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:56 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
It still has a median of around 3.4. Fordham is under 3.2.

So much for "grade deflation" lulz.


I very much doubt that the 0.2 difference in GPA cancels out the increased rigor. My understanding from most people I've met who have gone to Cornell's either Arts&Sciences or Engineering school is that it's a lot of work.[/quote]
Sure. The question is how much more work/rigor does it provide than Fordham? I would strongly suspect less than most people give it credit for, especially if the OP is coming from a particularly strong department within Fordham. If the OP is moving from a weak Fordham program into a Cornell specialty, that's another story entirely. Otherwise, I would not expect to see anywhere near a dramatic loss in GPA. We're not talking a monumental gap in academic quality here.

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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:30 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:It still has a median of around 3.4. Fordham is under 3.2.

So much for "grade deflation" lulz.

Fordham has a C+(2.7) curve in its core classes. In upper-level classes of majors/minors, the C+ curve is suggested, but not mandatory. Because the most popular majors (Psych, Business, English and History) are not particularly difficult, the GPAs are somewhat inflated.

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Chucky21
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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby Chucky21 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:56 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:It still has a median of around 3.4. Fordham is under 3.2.

So much for "grade deflation" lulz.

Fordham has a C+(2.7) curve in its core classes. In upper-level classes of majors/minors, the C+ curve is suggested, but not mandatory. Because the most popular majors (Psych, Business, English and History) are not particularly difficult, the GPAs are somewhat inflated.


The curve is real. Fordham needs to start lowering it's acceptance rate though. There is no reason they should accept 40%, more people are actually matriculating... it has to stop.

sayornis
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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby sayornis » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:09 am

The decision is not really Fordham v. Cornell, but Fordham v. ILR.

Asked around and found out that the median grade for ILR is around 3.6 or 3.7. It's definitely possible to do very well there.

IAFG wrote:
sayornis wrote:Transfer, 100%.

At least 3 people from Cornell's ILR school have gotten into Harvard Law this year (not to mention CCN with a lot of money). It's a solid program and the professors seem to be very engaged and write excellent LoRs.

This post is totally meaningless without stats and URM status. All the schools you mention are egregious number whores.


LSATs for the three admitted varies from 169 to 177. Non-URM.
GPA ranges from 3.8 to 3.93.

More than that, the ILR curriculum allows you to craft your story in a way that is VERY appealing to law schools.

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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby Gorges » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:24 pm

bdubs wrote:Is ILR your only option? I would say you should transfer if you can have a real major. If you're stuck with ILR or staying at Fordham, I would probably stay at Fordham and get a major that might actually get you a job when you decide that law school as a K-JD is not a good idea.


Hey, I'm a K-JD ILRie who is headed to Harvard in the Fall! Don't believe everything you read! It is a pretty legit major, despite the stigma of being in a "public" college. Transferring into ILR for sophomore year is very common, and I think that admissions officers really respected the blend of social science and pragmatic business knowledge that ILR gives students.

That being said, do well on your LSAT. You can fully control that aspect of your application.

mnkybtlr
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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby mnkybtlr » Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:04 pm

As a Fordham grad who's just wrapping up his cycle, I thought I'd put in two cents. If you think you'd be happier at/get more out of the Cornell program, go for it. If you're happy at Fordham and think you'll get all you need there, feel free to stay. It's pretty clear looking at lists of students at the top schools that most of them come from top-level schools, but I think that's more a function of where people who take academics seriously and are type-a enough to want to go to law school decided to go four years earlier. From what I can tell, I didn't have significantly more or less luck with my numbers than people from other undergrads. In other words, I think the top-undergraduate loading of top law schools is a self-selection issue rather than going to a top school helping one to get there. Fordham was perfectly sufficient to get me in at CCN and below, with a Yale waitlist and an as-yet-unresolved Harvard hold. Just go where you'll be happy and do well, and that'll be fine.

And re: the curving in Fordham's core classes - as far as I know, this isn't an explicit policy. Having taught one of the core philosophy classes last semester, no one mentioned it to me, so it's clearly not as explicit a policy as was earlier implied. At the very least, I didn't curve.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:25 pm

mnkybtlr wrote:As a Fordham grad who's just wrapping up his cycle, I thought I'd put in two cents. If you think you'd be happier at/get more out of the Cornell program, go for it. If you're happy at Fordham and think you'll get all you need there, feel free to stay. It's pretty clear looking at lists of students at the top schools that most of them come from top-level schools, but I think that's more a function of where people who take academics seriously and are type-a enough to want to go to law school decided to go four years earlier. From what I can tell, I didn't have significantly more or less luck with my numbers than people from other undergrads. In other words, I think the top-undergraduate loading of top law schools is a self-selection issue rather than going to a top school helping one to get there. Fordham was perfectly sufficient to get me in at CCN and below, with a Yale waitlist and an as-yet-unresolved Harvard hold. Just go where you'll be happy and do well, and that'll be fine.

And re: the curving in Fordham's core classes - as far as I know, this isn't an explicit policy. Having taught one of the core philosophy classes last semester, no one mentioned it to me, so it's clearly not as explicit a policy as was earlier implied. At the very least, I didn't curve.

I'm a Fordham grad too. It's in the student handbook, and most of my core prof's followed a more or less C+ curve. I had a couple chats about it with a few of my profs, so it's not complete nonsense.

But yea I had no trouble coming from Fordham in my law school application process. Granted I finished in the top 10% of the class. But ultimately GPA matters more than UG for law school, first and foremost.

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2LT_CPG
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Re: Does undergraduate school matter?

Postby 2LT_CPG » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:43 pm

I'd stick with Fordham, but then again I never thought about transferring from Fordham to anywhere else, even though I probably could have had a shot at Penn after my freshman year. It's a school that's been on the upswing for the past twenty years, and it continues to get better and better. Especially since you'll be there when they complete the revamped Lincoln Center campus, I'd stay. Fordham's been hovering in a weird nether zone for the past five years; more prestigious than regional schools and other Jesuit or Catholic, but not quite at the BC-Georgetown-Notre Dame level. They're projected to get there in the next decade.

Cornell is perennially the lower end of the Ivy League. If you want to go for the academics, I'd say go. But leaving a perfectly great UG located in NYC for upstate New York and a perception of Ivy prestige that may/may not help in the law school admissions process? I don't know...




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