Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

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mcdeeremitch
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Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby mcdeeremitch » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:15 pm

I used the search function but a lot of the results were at least 1 or 2 years old

Does Notre Dame place reasonable into any east coast markets....dream is NYC ...but i could do D.C or Boston biglaw as well??

Anonymous User
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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:17 pm

Very few Notre Dame law folks in those eastern cities. The further from the mid-west you go, the lower the reach is. Notre Dame's placement has really struggled lately since they don't really have a go-to home market to place students into. I'd imagine their east coast placement has also suffered quite a bit. I wouldn't go to Notre Dame expecting to get biglaw in any of the cities you mentioned, to be honest.

All of those cities have schools that are highly comparable to Notre Dame, yet would give you a far better chance in that particular city. Boston has BU and BC, Washington has GW, and NY has Fordham. They are essentially peer schools to Notre Dame when it comes to stats and selectivity, yet would give you a much better chance in their respective cities.

Lvaughn714
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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby Lvaughn714 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:26 pm

What are your other options? It is true that there are peer schools closer to these markets, but it doesn't make it impossible to reach them from ND, just means you need to do better at ND than you probably would have to at the peers. If you cab do Fordham, BC etc, probably a better fit for you unless there is an additional factor making you lean to ND.

Also, I would argue at Chicago is a decent home market for ND. Yes there are other schools actually in chicago, but ND is competitive with them if not better.

mcdeeremitch
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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby mcdeeremitch » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:30 pm

I appreciate both responses...Ive gotten into Howard and W&L which might me better options for East Coast...but I just got into Notre Dame today and it shocked me definately did not expect to be accepted...so I was curious as to its reach out East...along with a WL at Fordham..which I would go to if I got off

Lvaughn714
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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby Lvaughn714 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:55 pm

I went to undergrad at ND and have several friends in LS or who graduated from NDLS. They are placed all over the country. One is working in Houston, one has a 2L SA with a big sports law agency in CA, a lot in Chicago. ND also ranked 2nd on the "wanderer" index basically saying their grads have the most wide spread employment. If you get off the waitlist at Fordham obviously that's a no brainer, but I wouldn't count ND out. People underestimate it all the time but there is nothing like having the most legit dedicated alumni network ever at your back for the rest of your life.
Last edited by Lvaughn714 on Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby JusticeHarlan » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:38 am

First, this sub-forum isn't for 0L questions.

Second, here's what I found when I looked into Boston placement by Notre Dame before. Summary: I couldn't find any.

LawIdiot86
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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby LawIdiot86 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:39 am

Lvaughn714 wrote:People underestimate it all the time but ere is nothing like having the most legit dedicated alumni network ever at your back for the rest of your life.


No, there are many many things more important than an alumni network. School rank, placement numbers, location, professors, internship placements, and scholarship money are all more important than alumni network. Alumni network is particularly worthless at a school like ND where there aren't enough alums at firms to get more marginal students in than who could get in on their own. I'm rather surprised ND's USNWR and NLJ250 ranks are equal despite the structural disadvantages it faces.

Lvaughn714
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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby Lvaughn714 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:10 am

LawIdiot86 wrote:
Lvaughn714 wrote:People underestimate it all the time but there is nothing like having the most legit dedicated alumni network ever at your back for the rest of your life.


No, there are many many things more important than an alumni network. School rank, placement numbers, location, professors, internship placements, and scholarship money are all more important than alumni network. Alumni network is particularly worthless at a school like ND where there aren't enough alums at firms to get more marginal students in than who could get in on their own. I'm rather surprised ND's USNWR and NLJ250 ranks are equal despite the structural disadvantages it faces.



Also, you will see I never said anything about the alumni network being the most important. I agree, all of those other factors are very important when choosing a school. I was simply stating that alumni network of ND and NDLS is an external factor that is unlike the experience you will have with many other schools. I'm not asserting that it will have direct implications on your future employment, but rather implying that having such a strong network of people who are smart, kind, and dedicated to helping each other can be a helpful tool in life in general, which includes more than just your job (which is very important, but not everything).

Obviously this is not going to be important to all people, but I think for most who end up at NDLS, the community feel is a legitimate factor in their decision and that community is extended post graduation.
Last edited by Lvaughn714 on Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

VY10
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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby VY10 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:17 am

LawIdiot86 wrote:
Lvaughn714 wrote:People underestimate it all the time but ere is nothing like having the most legit dedicated alumni network ever at your back for the rest of your life.


No, there are many many things more important than an alumni network. School rank, placement numbers, location, professors, internship placements, and scholarship money are all more important than alumni network. Alumni network is particularly worthless at a school like ND where there aren't enough alums at firms to get more marginal students in than who could get in on their own. I'm rather surprised ND's USNWR and NLJ250 ranks are equal despite the structural disadvantages it faces.


Alums don't get people jobs, they get people interviews (unless they sit on the recruiting committee). So, yes, they can place marginal students into jobs should they interview well.

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dailygrind
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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby dailygrind » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:31 am

JusticeHarlan wrote:First, this sub-forum isn't for 0L questions.

LawIdiot86
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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby LawIdiot86 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:46 am

Lvaughn714 wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:
Lvaughn714 wrote:People underestimate it all the time but there is nothing like having the most legit dedicated alumni network ever at your back for the rest of your life.


No, there are many many things more important than an alumni network. School rank, placement numbers, location, professors, internship placements, and scholarship money are all more important than alumni network. Alumni network is particularly worthless at a school like ND where there aren't enough alums at firms to get more marginal students in than who could get in on their own. I'm rather surprised ND's USNWR and NLJ250 ranks are equal despite the structural disadvantages it faces.



Also, you will see I never said anything about the alumni network being the most important. I agree, all of those other factors are very important when choosing a school. I was simply stating that alumni network of ND and NDLS is an external factor that is unlike the experience you will have with many other schools. I'm not asserting that it will have direct implications on your future employment, but rather implying that having such a strong network of people who are smart, kind, and dedicated to helping each other can be a helpful tool in life in general, which includes more than just your job (which is very important, but not everything).

Obviously this is not going to be important to all people, but I think for most who end up at NDLS, the community feel is a legitimate factor in their decision and that community is extended post graduation.


I hear this, I have friends who went to Penn State who swear by a similar creed. I hold the exact opposite view. That it doesn't matter where you go to college or law school as far as school culture is concerned because you can adapt to anything for three or four years. You'll make your life network of smart, kind, dedicated people from the industry and area you eventually settle in and the college/alumni network will matter very little unless you settle down in your college/law school's town. Excluding the employment aspect, I would be shocked if ND's alumni network benefited someone who moved to DC after school as much as AU's alumni network even though AU has 1/20th the dedication ND does.

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Blindmelon
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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby Blindmelon » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:49 am

Lvaughn714 wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:
Lvaughn714 wrote:People underestimate it all the time but there is nothing like having the most legit dedicated alumni network ever at your back for the rest of your life.


No, there are many many things more important than an alumni network. School rank, placement numbers, location, professors, internship placements, and scholarship money are all more important than alumni network. Alumni network is particularly worthless at a school like ND where there aren't enough alums at firms to get more marginal students in than who could get in on their own. I'm rather surprised ND's USNWR and NLJ250 ranks are equal despite the structural disadvantages it faces.



Also, you will see I never said anything about the alumni network being the most important. I agree, all of those other factors are very important when choosing a school. I was simply stating that alumni network of ND and NDLS is an external factor that is unlike the experience you will have with many other schools. I'm not asserting that it will have direct implications on your future employment, but rather implying that having such a strong network of people who are smart, kind, and dedicated to helping each other can be a helpful tool in life in general, which includes more than just your job (which is very important, but not everything).

Obviously this is not going to be important to all people, but I think for most who end up at NDLS, the community feel is a legitimate factor in their decision and that community is extended post graduation.


Even if ND has a fantastic alumni network, it doesn't have one in Boston. I'm sure there are a few in NY/DC, but why wouldn't you just go to the better school for the area? I'm sure Fordham has tons of more employers from NY going to their OCI, same with GW and DC. Going to ND for the east coast will likely end up very poorly.

This reminds me of that brief period 2 years ago when everyone was obsessed with ND and how their alumni network trumps everything... wonder what happened to that.

Lvaughn714
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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby Lvaughn714 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:59 am

Lvaughn714 wrote:What are your other options? It is true that there are peer schools closer to these markets, but it doesn't make it impossible to reach them from ND, just means you need to do better at ND than you probably would have to at the peers. If you cab do Fordham, BC etc, probably a better fit for you unless there is an additional factor making you lean to ND.

Also, I would argue at Chicago is a decent home market for ND. Yes there are other schools actually in chicago, but ND is competitive with them if not better.


You can all see from the above that I actually recommend OP going to a closer regional school if East Coast BL is their undying goal. I simply mention the alumni network/community aspect so they don't think that going to ND would be putting a nail in the coffin of their East Coast dream. I agree with all of you that it will be easier to do ECBL from a closer school, but obviously there is something about ND that appeals to OP so just trying to add some additional perspective, not everything is completely Black and White.

LawIdiot86
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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby LawIdiot86 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:11 am

Lvaughn714 wrote:
Lvaughn714 wrote:What are your other options? It is true that there are peer schools closer to these markets, but it doesn't make it impossible to reach them from ND, just means you need to do better at ND than you probably would have to at the peers. If you cab do Fordham, BC etc, probably a better fit for you unless there is an additional factor making you lean to ND.

Also, I would argue at Chicago is a decent home market for ND. Yes there are other schools actually in chicago, but ND is competitive with them if not better.


You can all see from the above that I actually recommend OP going to a closer regional school if East Coast BL is their undying goal. I simply mention the alumni network/community aspect so they don't think that going to ND would be putting a nail in the coffin of their East Coast dream. I agree with all of you that it will be easier to do ECBL from a closer school, but obviously there is something about ND that appeals to OP so just trying to add some additional perspective, not everything is completely Black and White.

I suspect ND's 22 ranking in USNWR is the sole aspect that appeals to OP. For the T15-T30, employment, geography and scholarship money are the only factors that matter (and in that order).

FloridaCoastalorbust
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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby FloridaCoastalorbust » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:26 am

A friend of mine who is a ND 2L and landed a biglaw SA (in non East Coast market) explained that he could count on one, maybe two hands at most, 2Ls that landed SA's anywhere in the country.

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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:27 am

LawIdiot86 wrote:I suspect ND's 22 ranking in USNWR is the sole aspect that appeals to OP. For ALL LAW SCHOOLS, employment, geography and scholarship money are the only factors that matter (and in that order).


Fixed that for you.

FloridaCoastalorbust wrote:A friend of mine who is a ND 2L and landed a biglaw SA (in non East Coast market) explained that he could count on one, maybe two hands at most, 2Ls that landed SA's anywhere in the country.


So he was basically saying that fewer than 10 people got SA's? Really?

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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby Lvaughn714 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:13 pm

FloridaCoastalorbust wrote:A friend of mine who is a ND 2L and landed a biglaw SA (in non East Coast market) explained that he could count on one, maybe two hands at most, 2Ls that landed SA's anywhere in the country.


This is interesting because I also have a friend who is a 2L who also has an SA in California who told me a completely different story with regards to other 2L's

LawIdiot86
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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby LawIdiot86 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:46 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:I suspect ND's 22 ranking in USNWR is the sole aspect that appeals to OP. For ALL LAW SCHOOLS, employment, geography and scholarship money are the only factors that matter (and in that order).


Fixed that for you.


Well, yes, but only within a given tier. Any T6 beats any T14 beats any T30 beats any T50, etc. It's only within those tiers that the employment > geography > scholarship > everything else rules apply (and scholarship becomes #1 outside of the T30).

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bk1
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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby bk1 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:49 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
FloridaCoastalorbust wrote:A friend of mine who is a ND 2L and landed a biglaw SA (in non East Coast market) explained that he could count on one, maybe two hands at most, 2Ls that landed SA's anywhere in the country.


So he was basically saying that fewer than 10 people got SA's? Really?


I wouldn't actually be that shocked if it was really low. I recall that 1-2 of the ND posters on this board were lamenting about how much of a struggle it is there.

LawIdiot86
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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby LawIdiot86 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:19 pm

bk1 wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
FloridaCoastalorbust wrote:A friend of mine who is a ND 2L and landed a biglaw SA (in non East Coast market) explained that he could count on one, maybe two hands at most, 2Ls that landed SA's anywhere in the country.


So he was basically saying that fewer than 10 people got SA's? Really?


I wouldn't actually be that shocked if it was really low. I recall that 1-2 of the ND posters on this board were lamenting about how much of a struggle it is there.


If ND only had 26 starting gigs at NLJ25s0 (http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?interactive=true&id=1202543436520), I would find the idea that one person only knew 10 SAs to be very very plausible.

kaiser
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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby kaiser » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:27 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
FloridaCoastalorbust wrote:A friend of mine who is a ND 2L and landed a biglaw SA (in non East Coast market) explained that he could count on one, maybe two hands at most, 2Ls that landed SA's anywhere in the country.


So he was basically saying that fewer than 10 people got SA's? Really?


I wouldn't actually be that shocked if it was really low. I recall that 1-2 of the ND posters on this board were lamenting about how much of a struggle it is there.


If ND only had 26 starting gigs at NLJ25s0 (http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?interactive=true&id=1202543436520), I would find the idea that one person only knew 10 SAs to be very very plausible.


Totally agree. When only 26 people from the school are able to secure any NLJ250 SA's, knowing of 10 of them personally is actually a pretty big chunk. And remember that the majority of these SA's are likely in markets close to Notre Dame (i.e. Chicago, Detroit, Indianapolis, etc.) I would venture a guess that the number in NY or DC could be counted on a single hand. Given the immense difficulty of securing ANY SA out of Notre Dame in ANY geographic location, it would seem very unwise to expect one specifically in a market where such a small fraction of the class will end up.

LawIdiot86
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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby LawIdiot86 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:38 pm

kaiser wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:So he was basically saying that fewer than 10 people got SA's? Really?


I wouldn't actually be that shocked if it was really low. I recall that 1-2 of the ND posters on this board were lamenting about how much of a struggle it is there.


If ND only had 26 starting gigs at NLJ25s0 (http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?interactive=true&id=1202543436520), I would find the idea that one person only knew 10 SAs to be very very plausible.


Totally agree. When only 26 people from the school are able to secure any NLJ250 SA's, knowing of 10 of them personally is actually a pretty big chunk. And remember that the majority of these SA's are likely in markets close to Notre Dame (i.e. Chicago, Detroit, Indianapolis, etc.) I would venture a guess that the number in NY or DC could be counted on a single hand. Given the immense difficulty of securing ANY SA out of Notre Dame in ANY geographic location, it would seem very unwise to expect one specifically in a market where such a small fraction of the class will end up.


Right, I'm sure ND dominates the IN market and places 10 at Baker Daniels, Barnes, Bingham Greenebaum, Ice Miller, and Taft, which leaves maybe 5 in Chi/StL, 5-10 in NY/DC/LA, and 5-10 in Atl/Tex/Ohio.

kaiser
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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby kaiser » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:42 pm

Right. So placing 5 people in NY/DC adds up to about 2.5% of the class. No way I would hang my hat on a 2.5% chance of something. The expectation, if one goes to Notre Dame, is that if you do well, you will get a solid gig in the mid-west, not in the large East Coast cities.

mcdeeremitch
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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby mcdeeremitch » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:46 pm

Thank you all so much for the comments and debates...youve given me a lot of information to think about...right now Im leaning away from Notre Dame...its a great school but like a previous poster said I dont think I can hang my hat on so little of odds especially when I have gotten into albeit lower schools but on the east coast so they give me better odds than Notre Dame

bobbyh1919
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Re: Notre Dame East Coast BigLAW

Postby bobbyh1919 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:40 pm

mcdeeremitch wrote:Thank you all so much for the comments and debates...youve given me a lot of information to think about...right now Im leaning away from Notre Dame...its a great school but like a previous poster said I dont think I can hang my hat on so little of odds especially when I have gotten into albeit lower schools but on the east coast so they give me better odds than Notre Dame


I think this sounds right.




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