Why has Villanova dropped?

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lancelot243
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Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby lancelot243 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:54 pm

I saw today that Villanova has dropped significantly in the rankings. Does anyone have any information on why this happened?

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20130312
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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby 20130312 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:57 pm

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JoeMo
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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby JoeMo » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:57 pm

lancelot243 wrote:I saw today that Villanova has dropped significantly in the rankings. Does anyone have any information on why this happened?


http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/blog/villanova_law_schools_lies.php

Villanova3
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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby Villanova3 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:05 pm

Jumping off from this... I chose Villanova over Temple last year because Villanova gave me a full ride with no stip. I'm a 1L...

What kind of effects do you think this will have on employability, etc.; and do you think that Villanova will bounce back from this? The entire administration seems dedicated to improving/fixing this; but, I can't help but regret my decision at this point, especially because a little money from Temple, but the scholarship from Villanova catapulted them to be a better deal for me, and I thought that, for the most part, they were pretty equal in the region. Does this change anything? Or is Philadelphia still run by Temple and Villanova?

Thanks!

Ronburgandy2468
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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby Ronburgandy2468 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:11 pm

Villanova3 wrote:Jumping off from this... I chose Villanova over Temple last year because Villanova gave me a full ride with no stip. I'm a 1L...

What kind of effects do you think this will have on employability, etc.; and do you think that Villanova will bounce back from this? The entire administration seems dedicated to improving/fixing this; but, I can't help but regret my decision at this point, especially because a little money from Temple, but the scholarship from Villanova catapulted them to be a better deal for me, and I thought that, for the most part, they were pretty equal in the region. Does this change anything? Or is Philadelphia still run by Temple and Villanova?

Thanks!


Interested in the response as well.
But I mean, shouldn't you have a relative grasp of how things may turn out? Since you're a 1L and all.

Villanova3
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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby Villanova3 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:13 pm

Ronburgandy2468 wrote:
Villanova3 wrote:Jumping off from this... I chose Villanova over Temple last year because Villanova gave me a full ride with no stip. I'm a 1L...

What kind of effects do you think this will have on employability, etc.; and do you think that Villanova will bounce back from this? The entire administration seems dedicated to improving/fixing this; but, I can't help but regret my decision at this point, especially because a little money from Temple, but the scholarship from Villanova catapulted them to be a better deal for me, and I thought that, for the most part, they were pretty equal in the region. Does this change anything? Or is Philadelphia still run by Temple and Villanova?

Thanks!


Interested in the response as well.
But I mean, shouldn't you have a relative grasp of how things may turn out? Since you're a 1L and all.



I do, and I realize that this may be the wrong forum for this, but I'm just wondering what other people's opinions of this might be.

lancelot243
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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby lancelot243 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:18 pm

Is the misrepresentation of scores the only reason that they dropped so much? From what I have heard that has not had much of an effect. While I know that rankings do not necessarily mean much, I was just curious if there is a reason to be concerned about attending Villanova because of this.

BTW, I am in at Villanova with 20k scholly and also in at LSU with in-state tuition and 4k on top; still trying to decide. Thanks for any help

Ronburgandy2468
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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby Ronburgandy2468 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:32 pm

lancelot243 wrote:Is the misrepresentation of scores the only reason that they dropped so much? From what I have heard that has not had much of an effect. While I know that rankings do not necessarily mean much, I was just curious if there is a reason to be concerned about attending Villanova because of this.

BTW, I am in at Villanova with 20k scholly and also in at LSU with in-state tuition and 4k on top; still trying to decide. Thanks for any help


Well, in large it was because they were audited. But also take into consideration that Philly's legal job market has been rough for the class of 2010 (not just for Nova).

Some add additional insight into Villanova3's question. It is a good question, and I would also like to hear some additional insights into it.

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BK201
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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby BK201 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:46 pm

Go to http://www.law.villanova.edu/ and read the ABA Public Censure on the bottom of the page.

The short version is that Villanova self reported misrepresentations in their data by individuals that are no longer there. Then in an ironic twist, their peers who all misrepresent data themselves, trashed Villanova in the ratings. This was the entire reason for their drop I believe, and I think they might have actually improved in other areas.

This was their data for this year:

Villanova:
Score 41
Peer assessment score (out of 5) 2.2
Assessment score by lawyers/judges (out of 5) 3.2
GPA (25th-75th percentile) 3.36-3.69
Median undergraduate GPA for all program entrants 3.57
LSAT scores (25th-75th percentile) 157-161
Median LSAT score for all program entrants 160
Graduates known to be employed nine months after graduation 78.5%

Visit http://www.leiterrankings.com/usnews/guide.shtml to see how the rankings are done. They are irrelevant in many ways, yet no one wants to be #101 in any rankings, even imaginary ones.

I can't really speak to what this means for the schools future, I would assume it takes a long time for a market to change its views on what a schools reputation is.

lancelot243
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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby lancelot243 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:50 pm

BK201 wrote:Go to http://www.law.villanova.edu/ and read the ABA Public Censure on the bottom of the page.

The short version is that Villanova self reported misrepresentations in their data by individuals that are no longer there. Then in an ironic twist, their peers who all misrepresent data themselves, trashed Villanova in the ratings. This was the entire reason for their drop I believe, and I think they might have actually improved in other areas.

This was their data for this year:

Villanova:
Score 41
Peer assessment score (out of 5) 2.2
Assessment score by lawyers/judges (out of 5) 3.2
GPA (25th-75th percentile) 3.36-3.69
Median undergraduate GPA for all program entrants 3.57
LSAT scores (25th-75th percentile) 157-161
Median LSAT score for all program entrants 160
Graduates known to be employed nine months after graduation 78.5%

Visit http://www.leiterrankings.com/usnews/guide.shtml to see how the rankings are done. They are irrelevant in many ways, yet no one wants to be #101 in any rankings, even imaginary ones.

I can't really speak to what this means for the schools future, I would assume it takes a long time for a market to change its views on what a schools reputation is.



Thanks for the help. Where did you get the info on Villanova' s specific score, and where can I find it for other schools?

Ronburgandy2468
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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby Ronburgandy2468 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:51 pm

BK201 wrote:Go to http://www.law.villanova.edu/ and read the ABA Public Censure on the bottom of the page.

The short version is that Villanova self reported misrepresentations in their data by individuals that are no longer there. Then in an ironic twist, their peers who all misrepresent data themselves, trashed Villanova in the ratings. This was the entire reason for their drop I believe, and I think they might have actually improved in other areas.

This was their data for this year:

Villanova:
Score 41
Peer assessment score (out of 5) 2.2
Assessment score by lawyers/judges (out of 5) 3.2
GPA (25th-75th percentile) 3.36-3.69
Median undergraduate GPA for all program entrants 3.57
LSAT scores (25th-75th percentile) 157-161
Median LSAT score for all program entrants 160
Graduates known to be employed nine months after graduation 78.5%

Visit http://www.leiterrankings.com/usnews/guide.shtml to see how the rankings are done. They are irrelevant in many ways, yet no one wants to be #101 in any rankings, even imaginary ones.

I can't really speak to what this means for the schools future, I would assume it takes a long time for a market to change its views on what a schools reputation is.


TY for the post. Wow though, that 9month employment rate is scary.

btowncane
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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby btowncane » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:55 pm

This is from beach_terror over on the Villanova Class of 2015 applicant thread. I believe he's a current VLS student. He also posted the message sent from Dean Gotanda to students, faculty and staff explaining the drop. Basically a big part of the ranking (25%) comes from a reputational score among deans and faculty at various law schools and that's where the biggest hit was made.

My problem with that and how it affects the US News rankings is the perception of VLS from these voting deans and faculty after the scandal probably won't change anytime soon, meaning 25% of the score might stay where it currently is. I'm interested to see how, if at all, it will be addressed at the ASD.

beach_terror wrote:We got audited. All our numbers are more or less 100% accurate, and probably conservative. In an odd way, it should be somewhat assuring. ITT, I've said that if you aren't top 1/3 after 1L you should probably drop out if you're financials aren't in order and you don't have a reliable connection for a job. Our employment numbers put us at ~40% employed at graduation - confirming what I knew, and what you all knew as well. Those aren't non-legal jobs, or jobs people don't want, because typically someone won't resort to something undesirable before graduation. Part of our hit in the ranking is obviously the scandal.

Something I'm still not sure how to interpret our salary data. 39.5% is confirmed, audited data. I'm assuming our median salaries are based on said data, so $100k private seems to add up in my head. Approximately 12% of our class has biglaw or similar pay for the summer (confirmed, because I'm a 2L), which is 130-145 in Philadelphia. I'm going to be somewhere between 80 and 100k (ranked 15% after 1L) after graduation assuming I don't fuck up at my job this summer, and I'm sure others are in my boat too. As a "median" number, it seems right - but it's skewed high because more people in private practice are in biglaw and thus making above it, which only reflects the top 12-13% of the class.

Long story short, the data just reflects where we realistically are. Sure, I'm infuriated that we've fallen out of the T100, but none of our peer schools have been audited - and I have friends there who say the situation is the same there at it is here.

Another anecdote, I'm interning at a large federal agency this semester and nobody there thinks Temple and Villanova are any different. My boss told me this morning that Villanova is an excellent school, and I commented that it's just "alright." She said in Philly, people love it. That's true, and it'll always be true.

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BK201
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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby BK201 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:35 pm

lancelot243 wrote:Thanks for the help. Where did you get the info on Villanova' s specific score, and where can I find it for other schools?


It is on the US News webpage, but you have to be a subscription member which I am not. I just asked someone that was over on this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=178748&start=1075

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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:58 pm

OP: So you're deciding between Villanova with a partial scholarship & LSU in-state tuition plus $4,000 per year ? Since you're a resident of Louisiana, why Villanova ?

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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby jerzgrl630 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:00 pm

To those wondering about job prospects coming out of Nova:

I really do not think this rankings drop matters, at least not immediately. The Philly market loves Temple/Nova (for the most part), and you will always have law firms with graduates from either school. Maybe the Big Law firms will care more, but I doubt that local Philly law firms, of which there are many, will stop hiring out of Nova just because of this huge drop. I don't think the drop reflects on the quality of education received. In addition, I don't think Nova was gaming their numbers that badly. Not that it's ever okay, but it's not like they said the median LSAT was 161 when it was really 150. I think people know that, and if anything the drop just reflects how arbitrary the ranking system can be.

Having said that, this is my own opinion and observation. I cannot say anything with certainty. I just think that at this time, a degree from Villanova will continue to hold the same weight and prestige in the Philly market.

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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby harrison_chrysler » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:05 pm

btowncane wrote:This is from beach_terror over on the Villanova Class of 2015 applicant thread. I believe he's a current VLS student. He also posted the message sent from Dean Gotanda to students, faculty and staff explaining the drop. Basically a big part of the ranking (25%) comes from a reputational score among deans and faculty at various law schools and that's where the biggest hit was made.

My problem with that and how it affects the US News rankings is the perception of VLS from these voting deans and faculty after the scandal probably won't change anytime soon, meaning 25% of the score might stay where it currently is. I'm interested to see how, if at all, it will be addressed at the ASD.

[/quote]

QFT

The reputational score is going to stay low for years. Villanova (and Illinois) committed a mortal sin in the eyes of their peers (lawprofs and deans). In the eyes of law faculty, it is acceptable to fudge exit numbers (employment), but for whatever reason, lying about entering students is completely taboo.

The really scary thing for Villanova is that, because Temple is #58 and Villanova #101, Villanova will probably no longer be able to go head-to-head with Temple for students. That's not a gap, it's a chasm. As a result, Villanova's student quality numbers (LSAT and GPA) will probably also drop, sending their ranking down even further, all other things being equal.

As evidence, that Villanova thread referenced earlier in this one mentions that Villanova offered the OP 100%, while Temple offered c. 50% -- that data suggests that Temple values that student's numbers less; it's like when Penn makes a sticker-price offer, but Temple offers $$$$.

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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby harrison_chrysler » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:10 pm

jerzgrl630 wrote:To those wondering about job prospects coming out of Nova:

I really do not think this rankings drop matters, at least not immediately. The Philly market loves Temple/Nova (for the most part), and you will always have law firms with graduates from either school. Maybe the Big Law firms will care more, but I doubt that local Philly law firms, of which there are many, will stop hiring out of Nova just because of this huge drop. I don't think the drop reflects on the quality of education received. In addition, I don't think Nova was gaming their numbers that badly. Not that it's ever okay, but it's not like they said the median LSAT was 161 when it was really 150. I think people know that, and if anything the drop just reflects how arbitrary the ranking system can be.

Having said that, this is my own opinion and observation. I cannot say anything with certainty. I just think that at this time, a degree from Villanova will continue to hold the same weight and prestige in the Philly market.


Now: Penn >>> Temple >> Villanova = Rut-Cam > Drexel.

Penn is a national school. Temple Nova and Rut-Cam all do about equally well in Philly, but Temple offers additional range in the mid-Atlantic which Villanova will likely not have thanks to USNews; firms that don't hire annually from these schools will not know the whole backstory.

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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby Justathought » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:16 pm

harrison_chrysler wrote:
jerzgrl630 wrote:To those wondering about job prospects coming out of Nova:

I really do not think this rankings drop matters, at least not immediately. The Philly market loves Temple/Nova (for the most part), and you will always have law firms with graduates from either school. Maybe the Big Law firms will care more, but I doubt that local Philly law firms, of which there are many, will stop hiring out of Nova just because of this huge drop. I don't think the drop reflects on the quality of education received. In addition, I don't think Nova was gaming their numbers that badly. Not that it's ever okay, but it's not like they said the median LSAT was 161 when it was really 150. I think people know that, and if anything the drop just reflects how arbitrary the ranking system can be.

Having said that, this is my own opinion and observation. I cannot say anything with certainty. I just think that at this time, a degree from Villanova will continue to hold the same weight and prestige in the Philly market.


Now: Penn >>> Temple >> Villanova = Rut-Cam > Drexel.

Penn is a national school. Temple Nova and Rut-Cam all do about equally well in Philly, but Temple offers additional range in the mid-Atlantic which Villanova will likely not have thanks to USNews; firms that don't hire annually from these schools will not know the whole backstory.


I'm a Temple student. I love Temple; going here has really opened up some wonderful opportunities for me, but I do not agree that Temple offers any more range than Villanova. Both have realistic reach down to Wilmington,DE, up to Trenton in NJ, and out to Harrisburg in PA. That's about it. Pittsburgh, DC, and NYC have all been done at Temple, but it requires work. I'm sure that its the same way for Nova.

Edit: I do think the ratings gap could impact the numerical quality of the student body. Its a pretty big gap, and potential law students love rankings. Still, if Nova gains next year and Temple slips, its all even again.

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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby harrison_chrysler » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:33 pm

Justathought wrote:I'm a Temple student. I love Temple; going here has really opened up some wonderful opportunities for me, but I do not agree that Temple offers any more range than Villanova. Both have realistic reach down to Wilmington,DE, up to Trenton in NJ, and out to Harrisburg in PA. That's about it. Pittsburgh, DC, and NYC have all been done at Temple, but it requires work. I'm sure that its the same way for Nova.


In Philly, law firms know Temple, Villanova and Rutgers really well.

FYI - Martindale lists 409 lawyers from Temple in NYC and 319 from Villanova; 309 from Temple in DC and 184 from Villanova. Temple has a larger student body, but not that much larger in graduates per year (evening students take 4+ years to graduate), and not larger enough to explain the margin in NYC and DC. In the past, Temple has already placed more outside of Philly; USNews is going to increase that margin, NYC and DC lawyers are low-information folks reliant on things like US News to understand Philly law schools.

Justathought wrote:Edit: I do think the ratings gap could impact the numerical quality of the student body. Its a pretty big gap, and potential law students love rankings. Still, if Nova gains next year and Temple slips, its all even again.


But how will Nova gain and Temple slip next year? Nova's drop is due to its having violated a core taboo of law profs and deans (25% of ranking). Unless Temple does the same, that's not going to change quickly. As you observe, 0Ls love rankings; they have no loyalty to either school (yet). It seems more likely that Nova will fall farther next year; though of course, Temple could also drop for reasons related or unrelated.

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20130312
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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby 20130312 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:35 pm

Lol @ a 0L explaining legal hiring to a 2L

harrison_chrysler
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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby harrison_chrysler » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:44 pm

Not a 0L. Lawyer in NYC sweatshop who didn't attend either Temple, Villanova, Drexel or Rut-Cam.

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20130312
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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby 20130312 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:46 pm

harrison_chrysler wrote:Not a 0L. Lawyer in NYC sweatshop who didn't attend either Temple, Villanova, Drexel or Rut-Cam.


Fair.

Lol @ someone who doesn't actually know anything about the Philly jerb market.

harrison_chrysler
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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby harrison_chrysler » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:49 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:
harrison_chrysler wrote:Not a 0L. Lawyer in NYC sweatshop who didn't attend either Temple, Villanova, Drexel or Rut-Cam.


Fair.

Lol @ someone who doesn't actually know anything about the Philly jerb market.


I just know that I run into Temple grads more than Nova, and the data support it.

I totally buy that in your local market, the firms know the schools much better than US News could ever inform them. Not true outside your local market.

lancelot243
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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby lancelot243 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:28 am

CanadianWolf wrote:OP: So you're deciding between Villanova with a partial scholarship & LSU in-state tuition plus $4,000 per year ? Since you're a resident of Louisiana, why Villanova ?



I have family near the area (though more so DC and Maryland) and went to visit Villanova last month and really liked it. I have been in Louisiana all of my life (and currently am an LSU undergrad) and am kind of ready for a change. Like Villanova, LSU is a highly regional school and if I attend LSU law I know that I will end up in Louisiana forever. Up until the new rankings I was heavily favoring Villanova over LSU because of how much I enjoyed my visit, the close proximity to a lot of great places (NYC, DC, Philly, etc) and that overall Villanova seemed to be a slightly better school despite having a similar rank.

As it stands right now LSU is coming out to be slightly cheaper with all scholarships factored in, and now that it is ranked 20 spots higher (#79) I feel as though I need to really consider it and not just go somewhere else just because I want a new experience. I still think I favor Villanova over LSU, but just don't want to hop on a sinking ship.

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Re: Why has Villanova dropped?

Postby jerzgrl630 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:19 pm

harrison_chrysler wrote:
The really scary thing for Villanova is that, because Temple is #58 and Villanova #101, Villanova will probably no longer be able to go head-to-head with Temple for students. That's not a gap, it's a chasm. As a result, Villanova's student quality numbers (LSAT and GPA) will probably also drop, sending their ranking down even further, all other things being equal.

As evidence, that Villanova thread referenced earlier in this one mentions that Villanova offered the OP 100%, while Temple offered c. 50% -- that data suggests that Temple values that student's numbers less; it's like when Penn makes a sticker-price offer, but Temple offers $$$$.


Sorry, it's been a long day and I'm just responding to this now. I really do not foresee Philly employers sitting around thinking "well Temple IS 58 and Villanova IS 101, so we Temple now gets priority because it's the better school." Everyone knows what happened with Villanova's numbers, and it's hypocritical that they are suffering so much from this because every school lies (about employment, which I think is much worse). As much as law firms are, in a way, tied to rankings, I don't think anyone is so concerned about this that they'll stop hiring out of Villanova immediately. Philadelphia seems to be permeated Nova grads. Attorneys look out for their own, and I don't think the rankings will change that.

I do agree that it may change the caliber of the students. It is likely that more prospective students will choose Temple over Villanova. But Villanova will always have the deeper pockets. It is my understanding that they were aggressively recruiting students last year, and I'm sure they'll continue to do so.

This was a long way of saying that I don't see the "chasm" being a huge problem among local employers. Considering Villanova places regionally anyway, I don't see this being a problem. But there is the concern that Villanova will miss out on talented prospective students and I think that's a strong possibility.

Anyway, I don't know what to tell people if they're thinking about going to Villanova. I go to the competitor school (and outed!), and I'm happy with my decision. I think Philly provides excellent opportunities, and it's well-worth considering.




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