Yale 3L taking questions

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tinman
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Re: Yale 3L taking questions

Postby tinman » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:21 pm

anstone1988 wrote:
icpb wrote:It seems that the grading systems at both Yale and Stanford protect students from downside risks. Do you feel that Stanford's grading system (with book prizes, ~1/3 H each class with 2/3 P, protection from downside risks due to no LP) to be more fair/desirable than Yale's? Did you ever feel pressured to take classes with high H proportions because other students were gaming the system that way at Yale?


A Yale 2L that I often talk with said that students at Yale are very competitive for highly-sought-after positions: academia, CoA clerkship, top firms, etc. She said that she dislikes the grading system at Yale for two main reasons. First, she often feels compelled to take classes in which professors give out high proportions of H instead of classes that genuinely interest her because so many other students aiming for highly-sought-after positions game the system that way. Second, she said that although not gaming the system would put her at a disadvantage for highly-sought-after positions, gaming the system is stressful because high proportion of H (up to 50%) makes getting a P feels like a low pass. She also said due to the high proportions of H given out, employers don't treat a P from Yale the same as a P from Harvard and Stanford, which means that Yalies are competing more with each other than with students at Harvard and Stanford, and that sometimes made her feel that there are only two grades at Yale: ~50% high pass and ~50% low pass.


She sounds like the type of person who will get a good clerkship at the expense of having the best experiences possible at Yale. Life is all about tradeoffs.

I think Stanford's system is better for the few people who collect all the bookprizes, worse for everyone else. But I decided to go to Yale over Stanford in no small part because I didn't want to be hazed 1L year by the professors and worry about bookprizes. I think you have to be a bit crazy to prefer Stanford for this reason ex ante.

There is pressure to do well in classes. I think especially lately with judges being full years in advance, trend toward hiring clerks with experience, dried up funding for pub. interest and other government jobs, etc.
I would not take classes just for the grade, but I have been pressured to study even though I think that law school exam studying is wasted time--time that could be better spent writing publishable scholarship, doing work for clients in clinic, hanging out with friends, getting wasted, etc.

Geneva
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Re: Yale 3L taking questions

Postby Geneva » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:26 pm

This is probably the wrong place for this question, but what are Stanford book prizes? Thank you!

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tinman
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Re: Yale 3L taking questions

Postby tinman » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:32 pm

abacus wrote:
tinman wrote:Overall, I'm happy I chose Yale. I think Stanford would have been cool too, especially if you can rock it there (do their S. Ct. and win some book prizes). Yale is a much safer option for most people, I think.

Let me know if you have questions.


Thanks for answering questions. This is a selfish question and is likely very much off-topic, but I'm curious: if you hadn't gotten into Yale, would you have chosen SLS over HLS? Why?


I would have chosen SLS, but I was living in Boston at the time and ready for a change. I visited SLS and YLS each twice, but not HLS.

I think there are good reasons to chose both HLS and SLS. In general, I think SLS offers better weather, a better education, more pleasant experience, better classes, more access to professors than HLS ... and arguably better job opportunities. But Harvard is Harvard. There both awesome options.
Last edited by tinman on Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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howlery
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Re: Yale 3L taking questions

Postby howlery » Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:19 pm

Do you feel as though everyone in your class had exceptional soft? I don't mean just Rhodes or Marshall scholars, but generally unique backgrounds. Sometimes I feel like one has to be a reincarnation of the Buddha (or a deckhand on a fishing boat, according to the YLS site) to be accepted.

Could you get in solely on numbers or does everyone have to be special? Also do you think being the first person from an undergrad to attend YLS would be a positive? I'll have to call my career services office at my undergrad, but I'm pretty sure no one has ever gotten in. Not saying it'll happen, just sayin'.

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TatteredDignity
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Re: Yale 3L taking questions

Postby TatteredDignity » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:01 pm

TatteredDignity wrote:I've asked this in another place, but I'm curious about your take as a 3L.

How do transfers generally fare in obtaining prestigious (by which I guess I mean feeder) clerkships? I'm in a great position at my current school, and I'm not all that interested in academia, so my only reason to move would be so I could get a "better" clerkship. I understand a few specific profs are probably key in this process... is it possible/likely to be able to develop relationships with them as a transfer?


I'm reposting this just in case you missed it... sorry if you didn't.

EdgarWinter
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Re: Yale 3L taking questions

Postby EdgarWinter » Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:38 am

How many people do you know who turned down Dillards/Darrows/Rubensteins/Hamiltons/etc. to pay 40k+/yr for Yale? Are many of them going into 100k+ debt for Yale? What do they think about their decision?

westbayguy
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Re: Yale 3L taking questions

Postby westbayguy » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:15 pm

EdgarWinter wrote:How many people do you know who turned down Dillards/Darrows/Rubensteins/Hamiltons/etc. to pay 40k+/yr for Yale? Are many of them going into 100k+ debt for Yale? What do they think about their decision?


Several- who turned down multiple options. All are over 100k in debt.

Because of LRAP (YLS COAP), post clerkship signing bonuses (50-250k), firm job opportunities (160 to start) and government IBR (for those interseted in PI) it is not viewed as a problem.

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tinman
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Re: Yale 3L taking questions

Postby tinman » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:52 pm

howlery wrote:Do you feel as though everyone in your class had exceptional soft? I don't mean just Rhodes or Marshall scholars, but generally unique backgrounds. Sometimes I feel like one has to be a reincarnation of the Buddha (or a deckhand on a fishing boat, according to the YLS site) to be accepted.

Could you get in solely on numbers or does everyone have to be special? Also do you think being the first person from an undergrad to attend YLS would be a positive? I'll have to call my career services office at my undergrad, but I'm pretty sure no one has ever gotten in. Not saying it'll happen, just sayin'.


I think that most people have strong softs. I think its definitely possible to get in only on numbers if you have really strong numbers--like above Yale's 75% levels on both LSAT and GPA. A 179 or a 180 on the LSAT in a strong "soft" that will get you in even if your background is not super unique, I think.

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tinman
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Re: Yale 3L taking questions

Postby tinman » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:58 pm

EdgarWinter wrote:How many people do you know who turned down Dillards/Darrows/Rubensteins/Hamiltons/etc. to pay 40k+/yr for Yale? Are many of them going into 100k+ debt for Yale? What do they think about their decision?


Yes. I feel like most people including myself (Hamilton) turned down a full scholarship somewhere awesome. I am a man filled with regret, but taking on the 100K in debt is not one of them. You can even work while in school here (like at a firm part time), which is much harder to do other places, I think, to keep the debt down. Lots of options that make the 50-80K difference in debt worth it.

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tinman
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Re: Yale 3L taking questions

Postby tinman » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:13 pm

TatteredDignity wrote:
TatteredDignity wrote:I've asked this in another place, but I'm curious about your take as a 3L.

How do transfers generally fare in obtaining prestigious (by which I guess I mean feeder) clerkships? I'm in a great position at my current school, and I'm not all that interested in academia, so my only reason to move would be so I could get a "better" clerkship. I understand a few specific profs are probably key in this process... is it possible/likely to be able to develop relationships with them as a transfer?


I'm reposting this just in case you missed it... sorry if you didn't.


I think transfers do great here, in terms of grades and connecting well with professors. Think of how much better trained you are at a real law school for the silly task of 2-4 hour issue spotting, and professors are very available here.

Clerkships I don't really know. In general, people are getting great clerkships, but like in 2014. Realistically, if you want a feeder judge it will be really hard to get one year out of law school.

jd5
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Re: Yale 3L taking questions

Postby jd5 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:32 pm

tinman wrote:
EdgarWinter wrote:How many people do you know who turned down Dillards/Darrows/Rubensteins/Hamiltons/etc. to pay 40k+/yr for Yale? Are many of them going into 100k+ debt for Yale? What do they think about their decision?


Yes. I feel like most people including myself (Hamilton) turned down a full scholarship somewhere awesome. I am a man filled with regret, but taking on the 100K in debt is not one of them. You can even work while in school here (like at a firm part time), which is much harder to do other places, I think, to keep the debt down. Lots of options that make the 50-80K difference in debt worth it.


Is it only really 50-80k debt for most people, though? If you don't get any financial aid, wouldn't it be upwards of 200K? I haven't actually heard back from YLS yet, but I'm in at HLS and at Columbia with a Hamilton. My parents make enough money that I'm fairly certain I'll be facing sticker at a H (and at Y or S if I get in), but they don't make enough that they will actually be helping me with tuition.

I guess what I'm wondering is if most people at HYS who turned down Hamiltons/Rubensteins did so because they had financial aid packages that made the monetary incentives less severe.

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chup
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Re: Yale 3L taking questions

Postby chup » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:38 pm

Moved.

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tinman
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Re: Yale 3L taking questions

Postby tinman » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:06 pm

jd5 wrote:
tinman wrote:
EdgarWinter wrote:How many people do you know who turned down Dillards/Darrows/Rubensteins/Hamiltons/etc. to pay 40k+/yr for Yale? Are many of them going into 100k+ debt for Yale? What do they think about their decision?


Yes. I feel like most people including myself (Hamilton) turned down a full scholarship somewhere awesome. I am a man filled with regret, but taking on the 100K in debt is not one of them. You can even work while in school here (like at a firm part time), which is much harder to do other places, I think, to keep the debt down. Lots of options that make the 50-80K difference in debt worth it.


Is it only really 50-80k debt for most people, though? If you don't get any financial aid, wouldn't it be upwards of 200K? I haven't actually heard back from YLS yet, but I'm in at HLS and at Columbia with a Hamilton. My parents make enough money that I'm fairly certain I'll be facing sticker at a H (and at Y or S if I get in), but they don't make enough that they will actually be helping me with tuition.

I guess what I'm wondering is if most people at HYS who turned down Hamiltons/Rubensteins did so because they had financial aid packages that made the monetary incentives less severe.


I think most Hamilton scholars end up ~20K in debt (it only covers tuition). and most YLS students end up ~100K. Given your situation, you might end up in the higher end of the debt range at YLS. But either way, the cost difference between HLS and YLS should be less than the 150K sticker value for the Hamilton since 1) New Haven is cheaper than NYC, 2) chances of landing 1L summer jobs is higher; 3) more opportunities to TA undergraduate classes to make money; 4) more flexible classes and ability to work full time or part time while going to school.

And the edge for competitive clerkships, firms, teaching jobs, other gov. jobs after graduation is worth much more than 100K, in my opinion.

CLS is a fine school. But if you think you'd prefer Yale, I do not think you should let the money stop you. After all, Yale spends more on their students than they make in tuition.




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