Failing out of a Top 20 school, does this happen?

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Xvimic
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Failing out of a Top 20 school, does this happen?

Postby Xvimic » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:26 am

Is there truth that if you show up to class and put in a minimum of effort that it is practically impossible to actually fail out of a T1 law school? (specifically a T20 in my case)

I've heard the sentiment more than once on these forums and others that: because higher ranked law schools are not as afraid as T3 and T4 schools that their students will massively fail the bar due to the decent academic credentials required to attain admittance in the first place (combined with their desire to continue collecting tuition) that these schools are loath to actually out right fail someone who isn't actively disregarding their classes and studies. Meaning that once you are in, it is actually easier to get a degree from a higher ranked school than from a T3 or T4. This baffles me, but the attrition rates of the higher tiered law schools compared to the lower tiered ones seem to back this up.

Do any recent graduates or current students of T1/T14 schools disagree with the consensus that you basically have to be a total screw up to actually fail out for academic reasons?

Also, before you say it. I realize that there is a big difference between simply graduating and making law review/getting good internships that will set you up with a good job afterwards, both of which can be extremely competitive. I'm just talking about actually getting the J.D. here.

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Kabuo
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Re: Failing out of a Top 20 school, does this happen?

Postby Kabuo » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:49 am

I'm at a T20, and there were two failing grades given out in my section first semester. One in a doctrinal class and one in a legal writing class. Pretty sure the one in legal writing was based on basically cheating (trying to discuss the memo with other students), and I assume the one in the doctrinal class was just an outright horrible exam. Mean is ~87, and I think failing here is 74. I think the consensus is that you have to really suck at a class or else do something to piss of the professor, and even then, unless you do that in other classes too, you'll probably just end up on probation or something.

03121202698008
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Re: Failing out of a Top 20 school, does this happen?

Postby 03121202698008 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:00 am

We have no mandatory grades on the curve below a B-. Academic
Probation is well below that at like a 2.0.

Bumi
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Re: Failing out of a Top 20 school, does this happen?

Postby Bumi » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:25 am

Kabuo wrote:Pretty sure the one in legal writing was based on basically cheating (trying to discuss the memo with other students)

Our legal writing professor begged us to discuss the memo with other students.

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Kabuo
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Re: Failing out of a Top 20 school, does this happen?

Postby Kabuo » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:39 am

Bumi wrote:
Kabuo wrote:Pretty sure the one in legal writing was based on basically cheating (trying to discuss the memo with other students)

Our legal writing professor begged us to discuss the memo with other students.


We were honor code bound not to. Now that we're writing briefs, we're being begged to discuss it with other students because IRL writing a brief would be collaborative or something.

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BaiAilian2013
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Re: Failing out of a Top 20 school, does this happen?

Postby BaiAilian2013 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:41 am

Yes, it's true. Why does this baffle you?

Xvimic
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Re: Failing out of a Top 20 school, does this happen?

Postby Xvimic » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:58 am

BaiAilian2013 wrote:Yes, it's true. Why does this baffle you?


Well to an outsider it seems counter intuitive that a school which is harder to get into is actually easier scholastically to graduate from. Though I suppose when I consider the nature of the rating system and the economics of T1s not pushing out paying students and therefore additionally raising their attrition rates and making their school less likely to attract future students, it makes perfect sense from a financial point of view.

03121202698008
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Re: Failing out of a Top 20 school, does this happen?

Postby 03121202698008 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:04 am

Xvimic wrote:
BaiAilian2013 wrote:Yes, it's true. Why does this baffle you?


Well to an outsider it seems counter intuitive that a school which is harder to get into is actually easier scholastically to graduate from. Though I suppose when I consider the nature of the rating system and the economics of T1s not pushing out paying students and therefore additionally raising their attrition rates and making their school less likely to attract future students, it makes perfect sense from a financial point of view.


Why does it surprise you that a school that only accepts top students wouldn't force some of them out with the curve? It's possible to fail but rarely happens because people do the work. If you did absolutely nothing you could fail...

Xvimic
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Re: Failing out of a Top 20 school, does this happen?

Postby Xvimic » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:22 am

blowhard wrote:
Why does it surprise you that a school that only accepts top students wouldn't force some of them out with the curve? It's possible to fail but rarely happens because people do the work. If you did absolutely nothing you could fail...



If you are suggesting that the reason why no one fails out at top law schools is simply because they are all more responsible and more capable and therefore no one fails out on merit at these schools even though the bar for success is the same or higher than at lower ranked schools, I get that. However, while it is generally the case that someone at a higher ranked law school is more likely to be a better student, the impression I got from the comments I referenced in my first post was that a 1L at a T1 could submit the same quality of exam as someone at a T4, yet the student at the T1 would likely not be failed where the student at the T4 might be.

Though I now understand the complexities behind why this is the case, I'm just saying at face value it seemed strange to me.

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Gail
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Re: Failing out of a Top 20 school, does this happen?

Postby Gail » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:59 am

literally every year it happens. every year.

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Flash
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Re: Failing out of a Top 20 school, does this happen?

Postby Flash » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:05 am

Xvimic wrote:
blowhard wrote:
Why does it surprise you that a school that only accepts top students wouldn't force some of them out with the curve? It's possible to fail but rarely happens because people do the work. If you did absolutely nothing you could fail...



If you are suggesting that the reason why no one fails out at top law schools is simply because they are all more responsible and more capable and therefore no one fails out on merit at these schools even though the bar for success is the same or higher than at lower ranked schools, I get that. However, while it is generally the case that someone at a higher ranked law school is more likely to be a better student, the impression I got from the comments I referenced in my first post was that a 1L at a T1 could submit the same quality of exam as someone at a T4, yet the student at the T1 would likely not be failed where the student at the T4 might be.

Though I now understand the complexities behind why this is the case, I'm just saying at face value it seemed strange to me.

Attrition looks really bad for schools. T3s and T4s sacrifice appearances for profit. Top 20s don't.

Xvimic
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Re: Failing out of a Top 20 school, does this happen?

Postby Xvimic » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:14 am

Flash wrote:Attrition looks really bad for schools. T3s and T4s sacrifice appearances for profit. Top 20s don't.


Hey all the better as far as I'm concerned.

There is a certain comfort in knowing that even if I don't make the cut for honors etc... At least I'll get a pretty piece of paper I can frame and hang on my wall after 3 years of busting my ass.

I can admire it as I sit at home unemployed. :mrgreen:

Previous1EL
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Re: Failing out of a Top 20 school, does this happen?

Postby Previous1EL » Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:52 pm

The people I knew who failed out of law school, were not stupid, they were perfectly capable.

Its very narrow minded to assume someone fails because they don't have the ability. The people I knew failed because a) they were trying to work part time while in law school (mistake) 2) had family problems 3) health problems or 4) just problems in general. And no, this wasn't one of those crap law schools like Cooley or Widener. You had to have a good LSAT to get in.




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