Columbia students taking questions

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DCfilterDC
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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby DCfilterDC » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:08 pm

It's a CLS tradition to be afraid of doing anything that could lead to some of our great applicants choosing that little school in Cambridge

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jbagelboy
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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:11 pm

thats hilarious.

dabigchina
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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby dabigchina » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:12 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:(The roti roll/lukewarm pizza I steal three times a week) + (outlets in the seats) + (the two hours a week Tom Merrill will put sunshine in your life) + (???) = $60,000

Somehow I get the impression the school wasn't a wasteland back in the '70s when it cost $3,000.


How are you stealing roti roll 3x a week you lucky son of a bitch??? I think i've gotten it maybe 3x this semester.

Anyway don't hold your breathe re: the tuition. Bollinger basically said in his talk that people who go into biglaw should suck it up and feel good about funding LRAP through their tuition (instead of having it get funded out of the trust fund like most other schools with good LRAP programs) because we are the "poorest of all the ivys".

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DCfilterDC
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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby DCfilterDC » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:17 pm

dabigchina wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:(The roti roll/lukewarm pizza I steal three times a week) + (outlets in the seats) + (the two hours a week Tom Merrill will put sunshine in your life) + (???) = $60,000

Somehow I get the impression the school wasn't a wasteland back in the '70s when it cost $3,000.


How are you stealing roti roll 3x a week you lucky son of a bitch??? I think i've gotten it maybe 3x this semester.

Anyway don't hold your breathe re: the tuition. Bollinger basically said in his talk that people who go into biglaw should suck it up and feel good about funding LRAP through their tuition (instead of having it get funded out of the trust fund like most other schools with good LRAP programs) because we are the "poorest of all the ivys".


10 more years! 10 more years!

GoneSouth
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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby GoneSouth » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:26 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:We actually do get a ton of perks, but admittedly it's tough to tell how many of those come from corporate law firms and how many come from the school itself. I do think we have a much richer campus life than a lot of other law schools, in terms of support for student orgs, pro bono, clinical offerings, speakers, social events, ect. But a lot of that funding comes either directly or indirectly from Paul Weiss, Debevoise, Schulte, ect., and the law school institution is more of a channel between them and us.

That being said, having spent time at other "prestigious" law schools in other countries, I can confirm that CLS and its peers really do spoil us with infrastructure and resources, many times in ways you don't even consider. For example, I always took for granted that each seat in JG has a laptop charger and each classroom had an audiovisual setup. That's actually a huge deal and you don't appreciate it until you don't have it. Most professors actually show up for class on time, hold office hours, and some even respond to emails. That's a huge deal comparatively. If you ask the school for things on behalf of a student org, they will generally give them to you. I got three free trips to Europe out of CLS and free lunch almost every day of the week (not to mention open bars almost every week of the year), which is completely unheard of.

I attended a college that spoiled its students too, moreso than CLS, and that also cost an arm and a leg to attend. So I don't have the comparative experience of an affordable public school. But it really is amazing how many resources there are if you engage with them and try to use them.


Okay help me on the math here.

(The roti roll/lukewarm pizza I steal three times a week) + (outlets in the seats) + (the two hours a week Tom Merrill will put sunshine in your life) + (???) = $60,000

Somehow I get the impression the school wasn't a wasteland back in the '70s when it cost $3,000.


I mean if you're looking at law school as just means to getting a degree and the opportunity to make $$$ then yeah, maybe it's not worth it to pay more for Columbia. I value it differently

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:53 pm

jbagelboy wrote:Quite the opposite. The school is criminally, offensively expensive. the board of directors should fire half the administration and make faculty tenure contingent on teaching 3, rather than 2, full courses each year, to ultimately reduce the roll by one third (or transition all others to adjunct status).

But all the other schools should do this too, and they won't. Do you think it's different at Penn or Harvard or Chicago or Stanford? Do you think they are less egregious offenders? Because they aren't. Mono's burning hatred of CLS seems predicated on some mystical notion that the student experience is uniquely harrowing compared to alternatives. Knowing what I know about the peer schools and what their students say about them (both in the US and abroad), I just don't think that's realistic or accurate. So telling people "don't go here" is not doing them any real justice.


You know I don't think it's better anywhere else. I think it's all equally bullshit, so you should probably go to the cheaper school. Would it be better if I shouted "GO SOMEWHERE CHEAPER" at the 0Ls?

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:01 pm

GoneSouth wrote:I mean if you're looking at law school as just means to getting a degree and the opportunity to make $$$ then yeah, maybe it's not worth it to pay more for Columbia. I value it differently


Tell me what price to put on the bells and whistles, above and beyond what's justified by job statistics. How high does X for you to still be able to say "I'm glad I paid X additional dollars for CLS because it offered [Things A, B, and C] that I couldn't have gotten at Cornell."

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby GoneSouth » Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:03 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Quite the opposite. The school is criminally, offensively expensive. the board of directors should fire half the administration and make faculty tenure contingent on teaching 3, rather than 2, full courses each year, to ultimately reduce the roll by one third (or transition all others to adjunct status).

But all the other schools should do this too, and they won't. Do you think it's different at Penn or Harvard or Chicago or Stanford? Do you think they are less egregious offenders? Because they aren't. Mono's burning hatred of CLS seems predicated on some mystical notion that the student experience is uniquely harrowing compared to alternatives. Knowing what I know about the peer schools and what their students say about them (both in the US and abroad), I just don't think that's realistic or accurate. So telling people "don't go here" is not doing them any real justice.


You know I don't think it's better anywhere else. I think it's all equally bullshit, so you should probably go to the cheaper school. Would it be better if I shouted "GO SOMEWHERE CHEAPER" at the 0Ls?


I think you're going to be fighting a losing battle trying to convince people that there is no difference in between going to a T30 and T5 school, both in the experience while you're there and the job prospects afterwards. It's too simple to say "GO SOMEWHERE CHEAPER" when going to CLS might give you a significantly better job of getting the job you want and might give you a better educational experience.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:04 pm

It's not always the right choice to go with the cheaper school. But the way the scholarships work out, it usually is.

I think Columbia is worth about $40k more than UVA, about $90k more than GULC, and about $150k more than WUSTL. I wouldn't hesitate to tell someone to go here if it really were their best option.
Last edited by Monochromatic Oeuvre on Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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smaug
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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby smaug » Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:05 pm

I mean, I agree that cheaper makes more sense, but what would have happened if you went to a lower ranked school, Mono?

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DCfilterDC
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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby DCfilterDC » Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:05 pm

Mono how many times are you going to go through this whole shtick? You're just arguing with students who are already here. At least wait until someone comes in and says "I'm a 0L thinking of paying sticker." Then at least there's a purpose.

GoneSouth
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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby GoneSouth » Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:07 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
GoneSouth wrote:I mean if you're looking at law school as just means to getting a degree and the opportunity to make $$$ then yeah, maybe it's not worth it to pay more for Columbia. I value it differently


Tell me what price to put on the bells and whistles, above and beyond what's justified by job statistics. How high does X for you to still be able to say "I'm glad I paid X additional dollars for CLS because it offered [Things A, B, and C] that I couldn't have gotten at Cornell."


Well there's a pretty high disparity in utility for me in spending three years living in NYC rather than three years living in Ithaca for starters, though some of that is made up by COL differences. It's hard to put a dollar value on X because there are so many factors that go into it (experience, job prospects, resources provided by school, etc.) but I think it's pretty ridiculous to suggest that the dollar value is $0 and that all students should just go to the cheapest school they can

dabigchina
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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby dabigchina » Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:29 pm

DCfilterDC wrote:Mono how many times are you going to go through this whole shtick? You're just arguing with students who are already here. At least wait until someone comes in and says "I'm a 0L thinking of paying sticker." Then at least there's a purpose.

+1

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby LetsGoMets » Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:37 pm

dabigchina wrote:
DCfilterDC wrote:Mono how many times are you going to go through this whole shtick? You're just arguing with students who are already here. At least wait until someone comes in and says "I'm a 0L thinking of paying sticker." Then at least there's a purpose.

+1


In Mono's defense, we're law students, pointless thought experiments are kind of what we do

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:48 pm

I'm not going to fight the same battle endlessly. Frankly and selfishly, I'm more concerned about the truth and value of my statements than their utility to some future student it might save from making a horrible life decision (once upon a time, I read the 200+ pages of the UVA thread, and the entirety of this thread as well). But someone needed to say that it's more often that not a terrible life choice, without mincing words.

Not that it's going to stop Columbia from enrolling a fresh new crop of dipshits who will learn in five years what a bad idea $200k+ of debt is. That's how it goes.

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby mylifeis24 » Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:29 am

Anyone know where I can get any outlines or past tests for Judge's Corporations? None seem to be available in the Senate bank.

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby WhiteCollarBlueShirt » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:26 pm

smaug wrote:I mean, I agree that cheaper makes more sense, but what would have happened if you went to a lower ranked school, Mono?


I for one turned down large scholarships at lower T10s, squeaked through OCI (so arguably would have not landed biglaw at a lower ranked school), and I can tell you that none of it was worth it.

3 years of business experience/earnings foregone, all to work in a career that everyone wants help leaving (including myself), and I will probably end up just barely paying everything back or more likely paying taxes on the amount forgiven at the end of the day.

Legit insane decision-making. Follow a different path and I would have built up savings, I would have no debt (other than perhaps a mortgage) and could probably even afford to start a family today.

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby smaug » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:45 pm

Doesn't that militate in favor of "don't go to law school, kids??"

I think that's a far more defensible position than what mono takes, though.

dabigchina
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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby dabigchina » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:46 pm

WhiteCollarBlueShirt wrote:
smaug wrote:I mean, I agree that cheaper makes more sense, but what would have happened if you went to a lower ranked school, Mono?


I for one turned down large scholarships at lower T10s, squeaked through OCI (so arguably would have not landed biglaw at a lower ranked school), and I can tell you that none of it was worth it.

3 years of business experience/earnings foregone, all to work in a career that everyone wants help leaving (including myself), and I will probably end up just barely paying everything back or more likely paying taxes on the amount forgiven at the end of the day.

Legit insane decision-making. Follow a different path and I would have built up savings, I would have no debt (other than perhaps a mortgage) and could probably even afford to start a family today.


did you have work experience before law school. The negative cash flow associated with law school is what gets me.

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Nebby
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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby Nebby » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:48 pm

It's there something above first world problems? Ivy-world problems? Whatever it is, that's what's happening right now

WhiteCollarBlueShirt
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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby WhiteCollarBlueShirt » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:55 pm

smaug wrote:Doesn't that militate in favor of "don't go to law school, kids??"

I think that's a far more defensible position than what mono takes, though.


Yeah for sure. I probably generally disagree or feel that half of what mono says is off--I believe he recently recommended corp for exit opps, which you know sure. But if you actually like law, then being a litigator is the only respectable/enjoyable legal practitioner position there is (I'm transactional/regulatory and therefore not respectable and not having fun, but I have zero interest in litigation/courtroom nonsense).

I know people who have taken full scholarships at WUSTL and such, which in my opinion is more risky than CLS at sticker. I would generally not recommend that at all, but if we're talking T10 schools, then debt becomes a factor--that's a regret of mine, but nowhere near as large of one as never going in the first place or being a K-JD.

And yes Ivy-world problems is true, but my private club memberships, car payments, looking at private schools, it all adds up. I have a great life, I could have had a ridiculously easy and great life.

WhiteCollarBlueShirt
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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby WhiteCollarBlueShirt » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:57 pm

dabigchina wrote: did you have work experience before law school. The negative cash flow associated with law school is what gets me.


No--and there is one single class of people that I recommend law school to, which is those unable to start a monetarily successful career otherwise.

TheoO
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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby TheoO » Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:44 pm

Nebby wrote:It's there something above first world problems? Ivy-world problems? Whatever it is, that's what's happening right now


160k of debt is not "1st world problem" in the ironic sense of the expression.

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby TheoO » Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:51 pm

WhiteCollarBlueShirt wrote:
smaug wrote:I mean, I agree that cheaper makes more sense, but what would have happened if you went to a lower ranked school, Mono?


I for one turned down large scholarships at lower T10s, squeaked through OCI (so arguably would have not landed biglaw at a lower ranked school), and I can tell you that none of it was worth it.

3 years of business experience/earnings foregone, all to work in a career that everyone wants help leaving (including myself), and I will probably end up just barely paying everything back or more likely paying taxes on the amount forgiven at the end of the day.

Legit insane decision-making. Follow a different path and I would have built up savings, I would have no debt (other than perhaps a mortgage) and could probably even afford to start a family today.


I was in the same position. Turned down full scholly at lower T-14s for half at CLS. At the end of the day, I too squeaked by EIP. Might have potentially struck out if I went to, say Cornell or Northwestern. I dunno, a friend of mine at a lower T-14 struck out. He worked at a midsize firm now and likes his job, he doesn't make biglaw money but he doesn't work biglaw hours either. Without any debt, maybe that might have been a better turnout.
I think that and the sense of shame/failure that comes with squeaking by EIP and shit grades I got, have perhaps soured me on law school more than others who did far better. So I always caveat my frustration with law school/CLS with that info.

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:59 pm

TheoO wrote:
Nebby wrote:It's there something above first world problems? Ivy-world problems? Whatever it is, that's what's happening right now


160k of debt is not "1st world problem" in the ironic sense of the expression.


well, the consequence of the debt and COL is that you live like someone who makes about ~60,000 a year for your first few years out of school, e.g. solidly middle class in a first world country, instead of upper middle class.




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