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Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:25 am
by piccolittle
iamgeorgebush wrote:jdbagelboy: Thanks for your comments. You're right that for performance in one class, you'd expect everyone to be equally affected by the quality of the professor, since it's graded on a curve. My thinking was more that having a high quality prof in one class might make me a happier, more engaged student in general, thus affecting my performance in other classes. A bit of a stretch perhaps, but perhaps not.

Anyway, my real reasons for preferring goods profs aren't really related to getting good grades. I imagine most people don't get to take anything with Wu or Ginsburg until 2L or 3L anyway, and at which point grades are less important. I'm more concerned with having good profs for the sake of my learning and possibly for the sake of recommendations, should I choose to pursue a clerkship. Judging from undergrad, my engagement with a prof might affect my ability to get a good recommendation from him/her.

Or is this all just small beans, considering that NYU is looking to be about $65k cheaper than CLS?

Looks like you've made your decision already, but I just want to put in my two cents on the Wu/Ginsburg debate for the future.

Wu may be a more eccentric, lively lecturer, while Ginsburg uses dry humor and does a lot of show and tell in her classes (her office is full of random products and things from the cases, given to her by students over the years). However, if you want a recommendation or a Note advisor or someone to guest judge your moot court, Ginsburg is the best professor at the law school. She gives as much time as she possibly can to students and seems to really love seeing you succeed in every way.

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:09 am
by smaug_
iamgeorgebush wrote:Or is this all just small beans, considering that NYU is looking to be about $65k cheaper than CLS?


You should (1) follow the money and (2) start accepting that you probably will not clerk as soon as possible.

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:11 am
by Monochromatic Oeuvre
iamgeorgebush wrote:jdbagelboy: Thanks for your comments. You're right that for performance in one class, you'd expect everyone to be equally affected by the quality of the professor, since it's graded on a curve. My thinking was more that having a high quality prof in one class might make me a happier, more engaged student in general, thus affecting my performance in other classes. A bit of a stretch perhaps, but perhaps not.


*stares blankly*

Image

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:24 am
by buffalo_
smaug wrote:
iamgeorgebush wrote:Or is this all just small beans, considering that NYU is looking to be about $65k cheaper than CLS?


You should (1) follow the money and (2) start accepting that you probably will not clerk as soon as possible.



Why is this just a fact? I understand clerkships are difficult to obtain, but I would venture that if you do well enough, have a good relationship with professors, and are flexible geographically, a clerkship should be far from impossible. Is there a sense at CLS that clerkships are a pipe dream? I would think a school as good as Columbia would be decent at placing clerks.

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:36 am
by smaug_
buffalo_ wrote:Why is this just a fact? I understand clerkships are difficult to obtain, but I would venture that if you do well enough, have a good relationship with professors, and are flexible geographically, a clerkship should be far from impossible. Is there a sense at CLS that clerkships are a pipe dream? I would think a school as good as Columbia would be decent at placing clerks.


It's possible. It's just silly to fixate on as a 0L. Think about how often TLS tells people to avoid planning to go to a crappy law school and transfer. Planning to attend a school that isn't Yale with a plan to clerk strikes me as similar.

Moreover, it's hard to tell what the death of the hiring plan is doing, but some judges are hiring very, very early now. I would say that incoming students (everywhere) should be aware that there are fewer opportunities to clerk as a result.

Finally, it is a problem that gets worse over time. If some competitive students get pushed out of the clerkship race because a judge wants to hire a Yalie in advance, those students will probably work for a bit and then apply off plan themselves. This means that you're more likely to be competing with recent grads than you were in the past.

Clerkships are a thing that very very bright people do. But, just like you shouldn't count on getting on Law Review and shouldn't count on working at Wachtell, you shouldn't start planning for your clerkship before you've taken a single law school exam.

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:45 am
by jbagelboy
smaug wrote:
buffalo_ wrote:Why is this just a fact? I understand clerkships are difficult to obtain, but I would venture that if you do well enough, have a good relationship with professors, and are flexible geographically, a clerkship should be far from impossible. Is there a sense at CLS that clerkships are a pipe dream? I would think a school as good as Columbia would be decent at placing clerks.


It's possible. It's just silly to fixate on as a 0L. Think about how often TLS tells people to avoid planning to go to a crappy law school and transfer. Planning to attend a school that isn't Yale with a plan to clerk strikes me as similar.

Moreover, it's hard to tell what the death of the hiring plan is doing, but some judges are hiring very, very early now. I would say that incoming students (everywhere) should be aware that there are fewer opportunities to clerk as a result.

Finally, it is a problem that gets worse over time. If some competitive students get pushed out of the clerkship race because a judge wants to hire a Yalie in advance, those students will probably work for a bit and then apply off plan themselves. This means that you're more likely to be competing with recent grads than you were in the past.

Clerkships are a thing that very very bright people do. But, just like you shouldn't count on getting on Law Review and shouldn't count on working at Wachtell, you shouldn't start planning for your clerkship before you've taken a single law school exam.


Lol, given my insane track record with missing hidden deadlines at CLS, even if I wanted to clerk and had the recs I'd probably fuck up the timing and not even get an application out during the right ever-changing window. Seems pretty arbitrary to me

And yea don't dream of clerking quite yet

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:56 am
by beepboopbeep
smaug wrote:
buffalo_ wrote:Why is this just a fact? I understand clerkships are difficult to obtain, but I would venture that if you do well enough, have a good relationship with professors, and are flexible geographically, a clerkship should be far from impossible. Is there a sense at CLS that clerkships are a pipe dream? I would think a school as good as Columbia would be decent at placing clerks.


It's possible. It's just silly to fixate on as a 0L. Think about how often TLS tells people to avoid planning to go to a crappy law school and transfer. Planning to attend a school that isn't Yale with a plan to clerk strikes me as similar.

Moreover, it's hard to tell what the death of the hiring plan is doing, but some judges are hiring very, very early now. I would say that incoming students (everywhere) should be aware that there are fewer opportunities to clerk as a result.

Finally, it is a problem that gets worse over time. If some competitive students get pushed out of the clerkship race because a judge wants to hire a Yalie in advance, those students will probably work for a bit and then apply off plan themselves. This means that you're more likely to be competing with recent grads than you were in the past.

Clerkships are a thing that very very bright people do. But, just like you shouldn't count on getting on Law Review and shouldn't count on working at Wachtell, you shouldn't start planning for your clerkship before you've taken a single law school exam.


Sorry to intrude on the CLS thread again, but I'm not so sure on the bolded. I don't really see how hiring early specifically advantages Yalies - based on conversations with clerkship advisers here and other students who are clerking, we've had a number of students get hired for competitive judges very early on this past year (ie, within the first couple months of 2L year). It's not like top candidates don't have a full year of grades at that point - if judges were morons and started hiring during 1L year, of course, that would be a big advantage to Yale students whose smiley face grades aren't pulling weight in either direction. But that hasn't happened yet, to my knowledge; no one's getting 1L clerkships and no judge is going to be able to tell who the cream of the crop is that early on. Obviously we don't yet have data on clerkship %s post-plan, but I'd be surprised if it meant a big change in rates for top schools.

I'd presume the same is true at CLS with perhaps more self-selection away from clerking. The italicized is probably true, however, and I'd agree with the advice more generally. Put another way, the situation probably hasn't changed much for the most competitive students, but presuming you'll be in that category is unwise.

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:08 pm
by smaug_
beepboopbeep wrote:Sorry to intrude on the CLS thread again, but I'm not so sure on the bolded. I don't really see how hiring early specifically advantages Yalies - based on conversations with clerkship advisers here and other students who are clerking, we've had a number of students get hired for competitive judges very early on this past year (ie, within the first couple months of 2L year). It's not like top candidates don't have a full year of grades at that point - if judges were morons and started hiring during 1L year, of course, that would be a big advantage to Yale students whose smiley face grades aren't pulling weight in either direction. But that hasn't happened yet, to my knowledge; no one's getting 1L clerkships and no judge is going to be able to tell who the cream of the crop is that early on. Obviously we don't yet have data on clerkship %s post-plan, but I'd be surprised if it meant a big change in rates for top schools.

I'd presume the same is true at CLS with perhaps more self-selection away from clerking. The italicized is probably true, however, and I'd agree with the advice more generally. Put another way, the situation probably hasn't changed much for the most competitive students, but presuming you'll be in that category is unwise.


I too know people who lined up clerkships early 2L year. They're not most people. 1Ls (and especially 0Ls) can't really know what the competition for those spots looks like.

I also know at least one judge hired Yalies for future terms without having met her future clerks. By "1L clerkships" you mean "people hired during 1L" then yeah, that can and does happen now. Some judges are pretty much sticking to the plan. But, any movement away from it is movement that hurts you. Put another way, you have judges with full slates through 2016. That's a real change and no amount of clerkship pimping at Chicago is going to change the fact that people are hired further out in advance now then they were before.

If you don't get that the situation has changed, you're behind.

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:32 pm
by beepboopbeep
smaug wrote:
beepboopbeep wrote:Sorry to intrude on the CLS thread again, but I'm not so sure on the bolded. I don't really see how hiring early specifically advantages Yalies - based on conversations with clerkship advisers here and other students who are clerking, we've had a number of students get hired for competitive judges very early on this past year (ie, within the first couple months of 2L year). It's not like top candidates don't have a full year of grades at that point - if judges were morons and started hiring during 1L year, of course, that would be a big advantage to Yale students whose smiley face grades aren't pulling weight in either direction. But that hasn't happened yet, to my knowledge; no one's getting 1L clerkships and no judge is going to be able to tell who the cream of the crop is that early on. Obviously we don't yet have data on clerkship %s post-plan, but I'd be surprised if it meant a big change in rates for top schools.

I'd presume the same is true at CLS with perhaps more self-selection away from clerking. The italicized is probably true, however, and I'd agree with the advice more generally. Put another way, the situation probably hasn't changed much for the most competitive students, but presuming you'll be in that category is unwise.


I too know people who lined up clerkships early 2L year. They're not most people. 1Ls (and especially 0Ls) can't really know what the competition for those spots looks like.

I also know at least one judge hired Yalies for future terms without having met her future clerks. By "1L clerkships" you mean "people hired during 1L" then yeah, that can and does happen now. Some judges are pretty much sticking to the plan. But, any movement away from it is movement that hurts you. Put another way, you have judges with full slates through 2016. That's a real change and no amount of clerkship pimping at Chicago is going to change the fact that people are hired further out in advance now then they were before.

If you don't get that the situation has changed, you're behind.


I recognize I don't have the experience of having gone through it yet. But hiring earlier /= hiring only Yalies at the expense of CLS/UofC students. Yes, it's super competitive. It just seems like the bigger difference is that everyone and their dog wants to clerk these days, minus those wanting to do corporate. Whether that crazy amount of competition happens earlier or later seems only marginally important w/r/t the overall competitiveness of CLS students. I mean, the plan started in 2003 and was voluntary anyway. But obviously I haven't done it yet, so I'd be interested in hearing more specifics about what exactly has changed aside from application date.

I'd be curious to hear how getting hired for a clerkship during 1L year works, since OSCAR doesn't let you apply until August 1st in the summer before 2L year (at least for us). I know there are judges who don't use it, but they seem like a minority.

To clarify, I fully agree this is not going to be viable for most people, and making a school decision based on clerkship is idiotic.

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:08 pm
by Gary
Minor questions-
Does LionMail work through Gmail?
What are the nearest gyms to Columbia (other than the crappy student gym) that people use?

Thanks :)

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:18 pm
by Sgt Pepper
Gary wrote:Minor questions-
Does LionMail work through Gmail?
What are the nearest gyms to Columbia (other than the crappy student gym) that people use?

Thanks :)


LionMail works through Gmail.

And the gym isn't that terrible. I go at about 630 every morning and I pretty much never wait for anything. There is everything that you would generally need as well. The only thing to really look out for are classes that take over the whole weight room, which is miserable if it catches you by surprise.

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:29 pm
by Gary
Sgt Pepper wrote:
Gary wrote:Minor questions-
Does LionMail work through Gmail?
What are the nearest gyms to Columbia (other than the crappy student gym) that people use?

Thanks :)


LionMail works through Gmail.

And the gym isn't that terrible. I go at about 630 every morning and I pretty much never wait for anything. There is everything that you would generally need as well. The only thing to really look out for are classes that take over the whole weight room, which is miserable if it catches you by surprise.


thanks! haha i guess i was dissuaded by all the horrible yelp reviews.

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:21 pm
by smaug_
beepboopbeep wrote:I'd be curious to hear how getting hired for a clerkship during 1L year works, since OSCAR doesn't let you apply until August 1st in the summer before 2L year (at least for us). I know there are judges who don't use it, but they seem like a minority.


[removed]

I'm just saying that you're underestimating the impact that the timing change has. That competition is happening further in the future and is also causing many people to put off clerking plans. I'm sure you know (or could find if you ask around) many people who have back to back clerkships lined up or clerkships lined up for dates past graduation. With more slots down the line tied up earlier, there is greater competition for the remaining slots. It's as simple as that.

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:04 pm
by piccolittle
Gary wrote:
Sgt Pepper wrote:
Gary wrote:Minor questions-
Does LionMail work through Gmail?
What are the nearest gyms to Columbia (other than the crappy student gym) that people use?

Thanks :)


LionMail works through Gmail.

And the gym isn't that terrible. I go at about 630 every morning and I pretty much never wait for anything. There is everything that you would generally need as well. The only thing to really look out for are classes that take over the whole weight room, which is miserable if it catches you by surprise.


thanks! haha i guess i was dissuaded by all the horrible yelp reviews.

There's an Equinox at 92nd street that's really nice. It's a good 20 minute stroll from campus, or three stops on the subway.

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:05 pm
by anon369
Anybody out there who chose CLS (at near sticker) over a huge scholarship at a t14-- and is NOT independently wealthy-- want to tell me why/whether you would have done it again?

(apologies if this is addressed elsewhere)

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:35 pm
by arez
Can anyone speak to how Elizabeth Emens is as a professor and/or what her Employment Discrimination class is like? Thanks in advance!

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:02 pm
by Monochromatic Oeuvre
arez wrote:Can anyone speak to how Elizabeth Emens is as a professor and/or what her Employment Discrimination class is like? Thanks in advance!


I had Emens for Contracts last semester. She's good. Had on-call days (alphabetical) instead of straight cold calling. Big into asking students about their normative views on cases and policy arguments for and against something.

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:06 pm
by Monochromatic Oeuvre
anon369 wrote:Anybody out there who chose CLS (at near sticker) over a huge scholarship at a t14-- and is NOT independently wealthy-- want to tell me why/whether you would have done it again?

(apologies if this is addressed elsewhere)


I'm not independently wealthy; however, I am graduating with zero debt and I'm assuming you're talking about someone taking on sticker debt or close to it. I turned down $75k at UVA, which is a pretty decent amount and something I would NOT recommend most people do (I was in a relatively unique position). Although I don't consider that "huge."

If you're talking about taking on more than ~$100k in additional debt to go to CLS instead of another T14, don't do this, under any circumstances.

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:15 am
by djwjddl
anybody have merrill for property who has access to his coursewebs/past exams? please pm me. Thanks

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:26 pm
by waferthinmint
Housing question!

Do students in campus housing have to move out every summer and get assigned to a new place, or once you have your UAH or law student apartment do you get to stay in the same one until you choose otherwise? Also, are they 9-month leases or 12-month leases?

I ask because I'm wondering whether to go furnished or unfurnished. Unfurnished probably means I could get new, non-dormy furniture of my own choosing for a better deal. BUT furnished appeals because if I won't be in NY for a summer and I am supposed to move all my stuff out because it's a 9-month lease and/or housing reshuffles yearly, I want to be able to leave with just my laptop and the shirt on my back, and not have to bother with moving and storing my furniture somewhere. It really hinges on whether I can keep my same apartment or whether they make you reshuffle yearly like a dorm.

Thanks!

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:04 pm
by Tiago Splitter
waferthinmint wrote:Housing question!

Do students in campus housing have to move out every summer and get assigned to a new place, or once you have your UAH or law student apartment do you get to stay in the same one until you choose otherwise? Also, are they 9-month leases or 12-month leases?

I ask because I'm wondering whether to go furnished or unfurnished. Unfurnished probably means I could get new, non-dormy furniture of my own choosing for a better deal. BUT furnished appeals because if I won't be in NY for a summer and I am supposed to move all my stuff out because it's a 9-month lease and/or housing reshuffles yearly, I want to be able to leave with just my laptop and the shirt on my back, and not have to bother with moving and storing my furniture somewhere. It really hinges on whether I can keep my same apartment or whether they make you reshuffle yearly like a dorm.

Thanks!

They're 12 month leases, and once you're in you can stick around for all three years.

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:14 pm
by waferthinmint
Tiago Splitter wrote:
waferthinmint wrote:Housing question!

Do students in campus housing have to move out every summer and get assigned to a new place, or once you have your UAH or law student apartment do you get to stay in the same one until you choose otherwise? Also, are they 9-month leases or 12-month leases?

I ask because I'm wondering whether to go furnished or unfurnished. Unfurnished probably means I could get new, non-dormy furniture of my own choosing for a better deal. BUT furnished appeals because if I won't be in NY for a summer and I am supposed to move all my stuff out because it's a 9-month lease and/or housing reshuffles yearly, I want to be able to leave with just my laptop and the shirt on my back, and not have to bother with moving and storing my furniture somewhere. It really hinges on whether I can keep my same apartment or whether they make you reshuffle yearly like a dorm.

Thanks!

They're 12 month leases, and once you're in you can stick around for all three years.


Grool, thanks :)

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:38 pm
by tlsapp2017
Tiago Splitter wrote:
waferthinmint wrote:Housing question!

Do students in campus housing have to move out every summer and get assigned to a new place, or once you have your UAH or law student apartment do you get to stay in the same one until you choose otherwise? Also, are they 9-month leases or 12-month leases?

I ask because I'm wondering whether to go furnished or unfurnished. Unfurnished probably means I could get new, non-dormy furniture of my own choosing for a better deal. BUT furnished appeals because if I won't be in NY for a summer and I am supposed to move all my stuff out because it's a 9-month lease and/or housing reshuffles yearly, I want to be able to leave with just my laptop and the shirt on my back, and not have to bother with moving and storing my furniture somewhere. It really hinges on whether I can keep my same apartment or whether they make you reshuffle yearly like a dorm.

Thanks!

They're 12 month leases, and once you're in you can stick around for all three years.


So does that mean that it would potentially be possible to move in as a 0L in June/July, or does the 12 month lease start in August?

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:48 pm
by the_phoenix612
tlsapp2017 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
waferthinmint wrote:Housing question!

Do students in campus housing have to move out every summer and get assigned to a new place, or once you have your UAH or law student apartment do you get to stay in the same one until you choose otherwise? Also, are they 9-month leases or 12-month leases?

I ask because I'm wondering whether to go furnished or unfurnished. Unfurnished probably means I could get new, non-dormy furniture of my own choosing for a better deal. BUT furnished appeals because if I won't be in NY for a summer and I am supposed to move all my stuff out because it's a 9-month lease and/or housing reshuffles yearly, I want to be able to leave with just my laptop and the shirt on my back, and not have to bother with moving and storing my furniture somewhere. It really hinges on whether I can keep my same apartment or whether they make you reshuffle yearly like a dorm.

Thanks!

They're 12 month leases, and once you're in you can stick around for all three years.


So does that mean that it would potentially be possible to move in as a 0L in June/July, or does the 12 month lease start in August?

Your first lease is 9 months: August - May 31. When/if you renew, you sign 12 month leases. HTH.

Re: Columbia 1L(s) taking questions

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:49 pm
by the_phoenix612
MyopicVisage wrote:Where are the laundry rooms in Lenfest, Lionsgate and 420 West 116th Street? Basement?

The housing application requires me to pick three buildings and two room types (studio or apartment share). What do I do if I'm only interested in, say, Lenfest studio?

Thanks!

If you're only interested in a Lenfest studio, put that as #1 on your app, and say that in the free response section.

Lenfest laundry rooms are in one of the basements. Not sure on the other two.