Columbia students taking questions

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby Nebby » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:01 pm

It's normal small talk. 3/4 of the class is biglaw bound so it's a commonality among most of the community.

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby Kummel » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:03 pm

any idea if 3Ls have to fill out FAFSA in order to get spring disbursement of loans?

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby Nebby » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:06 pm

Kummel wrote:any idea if 3Ls have to fill out FAFSA in order to get spring disbursement of loans?

Pretty sure no, but call financial aid to make sure.

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby Anon-e-miss » Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:40 pm

Is Columbia as good of a choice for PD/PI-gunners as NYU? I realize that NYU has a PI reputation (which one could argue is either deserved or undeserved) but is Columbia just as good in this realm? I realize that Columbia is as good or better in terms of placement, but does the higher PI numbers at NYU (and lower at Columbia) make a difference in terms of offices like BxD, PDS, and Legal Aid (and PI orgs like ACLU, EJI, SPLC) where there are more likely to be NYU grads than Columbia grads in senior positions? Am I just overthinking this? Any insight is much appreciated!

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby White Dwarf » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:17 pm

I can't speak directly to the PD stuff, but Columbia has tons of clinics/externships/seminars/extra-curriculars geared at PI work. Many of them involve field placements with organizations like the Bronx Defenders and Legal Aid, and many of which are taught by current and former higher-ups in prestigious PI organizations. I can't imagine NYU is meaningfully better in that regard.

This doesn't really apply to you, but: I know NYU gets slammed by prosecution-side PI people because they don't put anywhere near the resources into helping those students as they do for those on the defense/community-oriented stuff. But, this is just as true at Columbia. You can count the number of criminal law classes available on your fingers. Up until last spring, there was only one externship (and no clinics) for local prosecution work (and it was a one semester class that was limited to a handful of 3Ls). It's clearly not a priority, and is probably actively discouraged by certain members of the administration.

/semi-rant

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby Kummel » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:05 pm

Anon-e-miss wrote:Is Columbia as good of a choice for PD/PI-gunners as NYU? I realize that NYU has a PI reputation (which one could argue is either deserved or undeserved) but is Columbia just as good in this realm? I realize that Columbia is as good or better in terms of placement, but does the higher PI numbers at NYU (and lower at Columbia) make a difference in terms of offices like BxD, PDS, and Legal Aid (and PI orgs like ACLU, EJI, SPLC) where there are more likely to be NYU grads than Columbia grads in senior positions? Am I just overthinking this? Any insight is much appreciated!


I think CLS just as good if not better for a number of reasons, including superior LRAP. But where CLS has the edge is that you won't be crowded out of any opportunities. Talk to a number of the PD/PI-gunners at NYU and they'll tell you how competitive it can be to get into certain clinics and externships. Really not so at CLS. At CLS you get a lot more targeted support because you're not just 1 in 40 (instead you're 1 in 5).

PM me if you want to talk about it more/more specifics

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby Kummel » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:09 pm

White Dwarf wrote:This doesn't really apply to you, but: I know NYU gets slammed by prosecution-side PI people because they don't put anywhere near the resources into helping those students as they do for those on the defense/community-oriented stuff. But, this is just as true at Columbia. You can count the number of criminal law classes available on your fingers. Up until last spring, there was only one externship (and no clinics) for local prosecution work (and it was a one semester class that was limited to a handful of 3Ls). It's clearly not a priority, and is probably actively discouraged by certain members of the administration.

/semi-rant


not totally disagreeing with this, but a lot of this is just logistics. First, you can't have a prosecution clinical program it can only ever be an externship kind of deal (whereas you can have defense clinics housed at law schools). Second, prosecutor offices have a lot more screening/concerns with confidentiality and conflicts so they are traditionally harder to get students involved for short time windows (just a couple days a week for a semester). I think the school could definitely do more to support those students experientially, but I do also think its done a lot and has an SJI advisor pretty much dedicated to the pros/gov stuff

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby Anon-e-miss » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:26 pm

Kummel wrote:
Anon-e-miss wrote:Is Columbia as good of a choice for PD/PI-gunners as NYU? I realize that NYU has a PI reputation (which one could argue is either deserved or undeserved) but is Columbia just as good in this realm? I realize that Columbia is as good or better in terms of placement, but does the higher PI numbers at NYU (and lower at Columbia) make a difference in terms of offices like BxD, PDS, and Legal Aid (and PI orgs like ACLU, EJI, SPLC) where there are more likely to be NYU grads than Columbia grads in senior positions? Am I just overthinking this? Any insight is much appreciated!


I think CLS just as good if not better for a number of reasons, including superior LRAP. But where CLS has the edge is that you won't be crowded out of any opportunities. Talk to a number of the PD/PI-gunners at NYU and they'll tell you how competitive it can be to get into certain clinics and externships. Really not so at CLS. At CLS you get a lot more targeted support because you're not just 1 in 40 (instead you're 1 in 5).

PM me if you want to talk about it more/more specifics

Do you find that the ability to do more experiential credits at CLS than any other T14 makes a tangible difference in getting the experiences you've wanted via clinics, externships, etc?

Can you speak to the impact of having a bigger alumni base in PI (like NYU does) versus Columbia which is slightly (albeit marginally) more private sector oriented? If you're a prospective PI student or recent alum of CLS, I'd love to chat over PMs :)

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby Kummel » Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:23 pm

Anon-e-miss wrote:
Kummel wrote:
Anon-e-miss wrote:Is Columbia as good of a choice for PD/PI-gunners as NYU? I realize that NYU has a PI reputation (which one could argue is either deserved or undeserved) but is Columbia just as good in this realm? I realize that Columbia is as good or better in terms of placement, but does the higher PI numbers at NYU (and lower at Columbia) make a difference in terms of offices like BxD, PDS, and Legal Aid (and PI orgs like ACLU, EJI, SPLC) where there are more likely to be NYU grads than Columbia grads in senior positions? Am I just overthinking this? Any insight is much appreciated!


I think CLS just as good if not better for a number of reasons, including superior LRAP. But where CLS has the edge is that you won't be crowded out of any opportunities. Talk to a number of the PD/PI-gunners at NYU and they'll tell you how competitive it can be to get into certain clinics and externships. Really not so at CLS. At CLS you get a lot more targeted support because you're not just 1 in 40 (instead you're 1 in 5).

PM me if you want to talk about it more/more specifics

Do you find that the ability to do more experiential credits at CLS than any other T14 makes a tangible difference in getting the experiences you've wanted via clinics, externships, etc?

Can you speak to the impact of having a bigger alumni base in PI (like NYU does) versus Columbia which is slightly (albeit marginally) more private sector oriented? If you're a prospective PI student or recent alum of CLS, I'd love to chat over PMs :)


i thought NYU was at 30 now, but I could be wrong. yeah im pretty happy with our 30 credits, as someone who will basically be maxing out the 30 at graduation, it really just gives you the peace of mind that you can do anything you want without having to worry about graduation requirements.

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby Nebby » Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:17 pm

30 hours is great. I was able to do a full-time externship in DC at DOJ, part-time externship at an impact lit org, and get a bunch of credits for writing a note, publishing a note, and being on journal executive board. What's even better is that it meant I had a total of 4 classes during 3L and prepared me well for the post grad job search.

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby Anon-e-miss » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:02 pm

Nebby wrote:30 hours is great. I was able to do a full-time externship in DC at DOJ, part-time externship at an impact lit org, and get a bunch of credits for writing a note, publishing a note, and being on journal executive board. What's even better is that it meant I had a total of 4 classes during 3L and prepared me well for the post grad job search.

Is it common for students who do clinics/externships at PD offices and non-profits to later receive offers from those offices? (i.e. can someone who did, for example, the BxD externship be competitive for a position there in the same way that someone who summered there is?) I realize this is entirely anecdotal, but just curious if the externship/clinical offerings can result in offers down the line, or if they are purely educational/experiential. Thanks again! :D

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby White Dwarf » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:19 pm

The benefit is probably overstated, particularly with ultra-competitive organizations. Still, it can't not help you if you do a great job, make a good impression, and have people from the office who can speak to your capabilities.

So few CLS students go straight into public interest organizations that it's probably impossible to have any good data on this, but it's definitely not just educational/experiential.

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby Nebby » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:37 pm

Anon-e-miss wrote:
Nebby wrote:30 hours is great. I was able to do a full-time externship in DC at DOJ, part-time externship at an impact lit org, and get a bunch of credits for writing a note, publishing a note, and being on journal executive board. What's even better is that it meant I had a total of 4 classes during 3L and prepared me well for the post grad job search.

Is it common for students who do clinics/externships at PD offices and non-profits to later receive offers from those offices? (i.e. can someone who did, for example, the BxD externship be competitive for a position there in the same way that someone who summered there is?) I realize this is entirely anecdotal, but just curious if the externship/clinical offerings can result in offers down the line, or if they are purely educational/experiential. Thanks again! :D

They could result in offers down the line but there's no certainty and one should operate under the assumption that they won't. The experiential aspect makes them worth it, because PI entry level hiring is competitive and looks favorably on lots of legal experience as a student.

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby happyday » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:12 pm

Hi there!

I saw in an April 2017 post (on page 185) that Wachtell extended 7 offers. Is this normal for every year at CLS? I was really shocked...I thought at most 5 CLS students get a summer position there every year.

I am a finance major who is pretty dead-set on NYC corp (NO dreams of academia, Supreme Court clerkships, or even federal circuit ones). From the Wachtell hiring data, would you say that Columbia Law is a better choice than HLS for people like me who want a shot at V10 corporate?

My thinking is this: at H, you have to compete with more HYP undergrads and people from Goldman Sachs, McKinsey, etc. with a grading system that has (imo) a super subjective DS grade. All these factors make grades less important and personal characteristics (like undergrad pedigree) more impactful. Of course, I do not know if getting an A at CLS is super hard as well...what percentage of your class gets an A in 1L?

More importantly, if a firm like Wachtell already hires 7 people from CLS, they can't hire THAT MANY more from Harvard or Yale right? I mean, can they give out 10 or 15 offers to H students and 7 to CLS ones? I was assuming they hire about the SAME number of students from HYC. Are there any Columbia Law students who can speak to this?

Thanks in advance for any reply! :D

P.S. I am only using Wachtell because it is the pinnacle of NYC corp; I naturally assume that other firms like DPW and Sullivan follow a similar trend in which there is no significant difference between CLS and H students who want to do NYC corp.

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby Nebby » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:29 pm

There is no significant difference. You'll hate your life just the same

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby dabigchina » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:42 pm

happyday wrote:Hi there!

I saw in an April 2017 post (on page 185) that Wachtell extended 7 offers. Is this normal for every year at CLS? I was really shocked...I thought at most 5 CLS students get a summer position there every year.

I am a finance major who is pretty dead-set on NYC corp (NO dreams of academia, Supreme Court clerkships, or even federal circuit ones). From the Wachtell hiring data, would you say that Columbia Law is a better choice than HLS for people like me who want a shot at V10 corporate?

My thinking is this: at H, you have to compete with more HYP undergrads and people from Goldman Sachs, McKinsey, etc. with a grading system that has (imo) a super subjective DS grade. All these factors make grades less important and personal characteristics (like undergrad pedigree) more impactful. Of course, I do not know if getting an A at CLS is super hard as well...what percentage of your class gets an A in 1L?

More importantly, if a firm like Wachtell already hires 7 people from CLS, they can't hire THAT MANY more from Harvard or Yale right? I mean, can they give out 10 or 15 offers to H students and 7 to CLS ones? I was assuming they hire about the SAME number of students from HYC. Are there any Columbia Law students who can speak to this?

Thanks in advance for any reply! :D

P.S. I am only using Wachtell because it is the pinnacle of NYC corp; I naturally assume that other firms like DPW and Sullivan follow a similar trend in which there is no significant difference between CLS and H students who want to do NYC corp.

If you just want generic NYC v5 corp, CLS can get you there easily. I think harvard has a negligible advantage on us, but nothing to lose sleep over. Go wherever is cheaper.

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby happyday » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:35 am

Hi dabigchina,

Thanks so much for the reply! This is my first time ever posting on a blog so I'm very grateful that people actually respond :lol:
Yes, I genuinely just want NYC V5 corp, so it's relieving to hear you say that it's pretty easy to get positions there from CLS. That makes Columbia even more my dream school!

What does it really take to get an offer from Wachtell from CLS? :P Do only Kent Scholars have a real shot? And even for Kents, do they need to have experience in investment banking, private equity, finance, etc.? Or are stellar grades enough?

And in terms of grades, how hard is it to get an A at CLS (5% of class? 10%?)? I guess what I would like to know is if getting an A takes extreme workaholism OR a LOT of luck/professors liking you/arbitrary nuances/etc. In other words, do you feel like you are able to get a desired grade at CLS through working like a maniac?

Thanks a lot!!


dabigchina wrote:
happyday wrote:Hi there!

I saw in an April 2017 post (on page 185) that Wachtell extended 7 offers. Is this normal for every year at CLS? I was really shocked...I thought at most 5 CLS students get a summer position there every year.

I am a finance major who is pretty dead-set on NYC corp (NO dreams of academia, Supreme Court clerkships, or even federal circuit ones). From the Wachtell hiring data, would you say that Columbia Law is a better choice than HLS for people like me who want a shot at V10 corporate?

My thinking is this: at H, you have to compete with more HYP undergrads and people from Goldman Sachs, McKinsey, etc. with a grading system that has (imo) a super subjective DS grade. All these factors make grades less important and personal characteristics (like undergrad pedigree) more impactful. Of course, I do not know if getting an A at CLS is super hard as well...what percentage of your class gets an A in 1L?

More importantly, if a firm like Wachtell already hires 7 people from CLS, they can't hire THAT MANY more from Harvard or Yale right? I mean, can they give out 10 or 15 offers to H students and 7 to CLS ones? I was assuming they hire about the SAME number of students from HYC. Are there any Columbia Law students who can speak to this?

Thanks in advance for any reply! :D

P.S. I am only using Wachtell because it is the pinnacle of NYC corp; I naturally assume that other firms like DPW and Sullivan follow a similar trend in which there is no significant difference between CLS and H students who want to do NYC corp.

If you just want generic NYC v5 corp, CLS can get you there easily. I think harvard has a negligible advantage on us, but nothing to lose sleep over. Go wherever is cheaper.

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby happyday » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:42 am

LOL, thanks for the reply Nebby! Glad to hear it :D Do you know what it takes (in terms of credentials) to get into Wachtell or Cravath from CLS? Are good 1L grades enough or do they care a lot about work experience (e.g. Wall Street finance or consulting)? I am asking this because I am 95% sure that I want to go straight through to law school. Thanks again!

Nebby wrote:There is no significant difference. You'll hate your life just the same

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby dabigchina » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:53 pm

happyday wrote:Hi dabigchina,

Thanks so much for the reply! This is my first time ever posting on a blog so I'm very grateful that people actually respond :lol:
Yes, I genuinely just want NYC V5 corp, so it's relieving to hear you say that it's pretty easy to get positions there from CLS. That makes Columbia even more my dream school!

What does it really take to get an offer from Wachtell from CLS? :P Do only Kent Scholars have a real shot? And even for Kents, do they need to have experience in investment banking, private equity, finance, etc.? Or are stellar grades enough?

And in terms of grades, how hard is it to get an A at CLS (5% of class? 10%?)? I guess what I would like to know is if getting an A takes extreme workaholism OR a LOT of luck/professors liking you/arbitrary nuances/etc. In other words, do you feel like you are able to get a desired grade at CLS through working like a maniac?

Thanks a lot!!


Wachtell is kind of a crapshoot, even for Kent Scholars. I would say top 5-7% is necessary, but not sufficient. Anecdotally, Wachtell likes ex-bankers, but I can't really say for sure.

Getting good grades is somewhat arbitrary. A lot of it comes not just from which professors you get, but also what section you get put into. My section during first semester of 1L was the intense gunner section and my grades were pretty mediocre. When they switched up the sections second semester, my grades went way up despite doing a lot less work.

Overall, I wouldn't bank on getting Wachtell, regardless of how hard you are willing to work. I will say that if you are willing to put in the work, you will probably be able to land in the v5-v10 range.

ETA: I think the 1L curve has been posted a couple of times ITT. I think A's are like 7% of the curve.

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby Nebby » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:14 pm

For Wachtell you'll probably need Kent. The only Wachtell associates I know were Kent (how do I know? Yes, they tell you. Such is the personality of a Wachtell associate :lol: ) Anecdotally, I know of Stone scholars who work for Cravath.

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby Kummel » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:35 pm

dabigchina wrote:ETA: I think the 1L curve has been posted a couple of times ITT. I think A's are like 7% of the curve.


can't speak to the other things, but pretty sure A's avg 10% of the curve for 1Ls

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby dabigchina » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:42 pm

Kummel wrote:
dabigchina wrote:ETA: I think the 1L curve has been posted a couple of times ITT. I think A's are like 7% of the curve.


can't speak to the other things, but pretty sure A's avg 10% of the curve for 1Ls

Sounds about right.

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby dabigchina » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:43 pm

Nebby wrote:For Wachtell you'll probably need Kent. The only Wachtell associates I know were Kent (how do I know? Yes, they tell you. Such is the personality of a Wachtell associate :lol: ) Anecdotally, I know of Stone scholars who work for Cravath.

Yeah but who cares about CravaTTTh. They didn't even increase bonuses this year.

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby anonymous117 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:44 pm

happyday wrote:LOL, thanks for the reply Nebby! Glad to hear it :D Do you know what it takes (in terms of credentials) to get into Wachtell or Cravath from CLS? Are good 1L grades enough or do they care a lot about work experience (e.g. Wall Street finance or consulting)? I am asking this because I am 95% sure that I want to go straight through to law school. Thanks again!

Nebby wrote:There is no significant difference. You'll hate your life just the same


FWIW, this past summer there were two CLS 1L's at Wachtell (one straight through, one with work experience), and at least one CLS 1L at Cravath. And those are positions obtained after just one semester of grades. So do really well first semester and you could get your foot in the door early.

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Re: Columbia students taking questions

Postby GoneSouth » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:03 am

Nebby wrote:For Wachtell you'll probably need Kent. The only Wachtell associates I know were Kent (how do I know? Yes, they tell you. Such is the personality of a Wachtell associate :lol: ) Anecdotally, I know of Stone scholars who work for Cravath.


I think this was an outlier, neither two or three years ago both of two CLS summers at Wachtell was Kent (and I think one might not have even been Stone). I don't know anything else about them to know if they had other relevant experience, but I'm assuming they did.




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